Always Protestant converts. Not a single cradle Catholic or EO in the group.

Dear Pastor Spencer:

Somebody directed me to your blog post about your wife becoming Roman Catholic. I am sorry to see the pain this has so obviously caused.

As a cradle Southern Baptist myself who eventually came home to Orthodoxy, I may know a little of what she was going through. Or maybe not. It’s hard to say.

I would simply say, as somebody who started down this trail a long time ago with the vague suspicion that Protestantism was somehow cut off from Church history, that you might benefit from reading Jaroslav Pelikan’s five volumes on Christian doctrine. It might not make you follow your wife across the Tiber (indeed, I think Orthodoxy is the proper choice), but on the other hand it might provide a degree of historical context that I think is often missing in most Baptist environments. And at least make what happened more comprehensible.

Good people, but the totally wrong thing to do. TOTALLY.

Please understand I’m just giving my impression, which is that you’ve never missed the bell to step up after any credo Baptist statement or non-RP statement about the LS and defend your views. Given your background, I understand your choice to be a deep and convinced one….and I sometimes can’t understand why you- who have, I’m sure- many credo/non-RP Christians in your family- will make extreme statements about RP that sound- in translation to me- as if we’re not grasping an essential.

The fact that you’ve been the one to make comebacks to me makes you one of my favorites on here. God knows the place is deadly dull anymore. But I always feel that these exchanges are continuing restatements of what we both know, and yet we still choose to accept the other person as fully in Christ.

If I’m judging you wrongly, I apologize. You’re the closest thing to a Catholic we have on here so I need to treat you good. :-)

I’m certainly not offended by anyone having a long list of “something else’s,” but JS has historically felt that any statement by non-RPers somehow amounts to an attack on those who affirm a real RP.

...blinks…

I have? How have I given that impression?

The Times does one of those “who will be Obama’s VP?” pieces to fill a quiet Friday afternoon. (jn)

#9 must be a joke. Surely? Please???

John: You probably feel much like I fee every time JS says ”...mere remembrance.” :-)

When anything is defined DOWN by someone, then the “something else” is part of many people’s journey. The “something else” may be a connection to Jesus in present time or a connection to Jesus in eternal time. It may be a “something else” that can be talked about but not measured, or it may be something that can’t even be talked about.

I’m certainly not offended by anyone having a long list of “something else’s,” but JS has historically felt that any statement by non-RPers somehow amounts to an attack on those who affirm a real RP. The elephant in the room always amounts to who RESPECTS the other person’s view of the Supper and Baptism. Well….I have a question:

Do we respect one another’s confession of faith in the real Jesus?

If so, then what are we talking about? The Lutheran has Jesus here, the RC there, the Pentecostal up there, the Baptist around here somewhere. Are we talking location or REALITY, because I don’t think even the most non-sacramental person here is exercising faith in something NOT real, but ultimately real.

After that, I really don’t get what the discomfort level is. Why do these RCs continually write me with the assumption that if I get in the room where the eucharist is, I’ll finally discover the beauty of the real presence of Jesus? Why is my discovery of the presence of Jesus and my entire life’s devotion and worship to that Jesus not working?

I don’t want Baptists or whatever the hell I am to be adopted into the Lutheran, Anglican or Catholic church, and I’ll publicly call out anyone who degrades your faith in Jesus. But I think we have an open door to all those who believe Jesus of Nazareth is Lord, present, reigning, united to us, here in the power of the Spirit, whatever we want to say and after that anyone ought to be ashamed of himself for insisting on more for the purposes of the love of the brethren.

I know I’ve sinned in this area, but when you can’t have fellowship in your own family over this kind of distinction, you long for it not to be an issue elsewhere. Without compromise on anyone’s part.

peace and thanks for reading this bit of a vent

I would respond to Jim, except that these days I have a hard time even bringing myself to believe in Jim. I’ve got enough going on in my life that I don’t want to waste my time arguing about the existence of Jim, the inerrancy of Jim, or the Real Presence of Jim in the BHT. What’s the relevance to the man in the chair surfing the net?

Jim: I could argue with you, but we just (finally!) exchanged contracts on our house sale/purchase, so I am peace with all humanity and nothing can ruffle my sense of well-being. (sw)

(It’s probably quite revealing though that I had a quick glance at my email inbox before typing those last few words. Just in case…)

From Denny Burk:

I am especially concerned about single-issue politics in this high political season in which we presently find ourselves. In November, Americans will go to the polls to elect a president who is likely to appoint at least two Supreme Court Justices. Those Justices will determine whether Roe v. Wade remains the law of the land for the next generation or whether it will be finally overturned. Roe v. Wade has presided over the legal killings of over 50 million babies since 1973. When I step into that voting booth in November, I will not pull the lever for a candidate who will continue the immoral regime of Roe v. Wade, no matter how much I like his views on the Kyoto Protocols or balancing the federal budget. And I will make the case with all my might that other evangelicals should do the same. Saving the babies takes priority over saving the environment and the budget. That “single-issue” determines my vote, even though I think the other issues deserve my attention as well.

What do you think of that?

Jim,

But I have to say, because I think it’s part of the issue here, that when I hear phrases like “public, communal absolution and grace,” there is a part of my brain that lights up big letters W, T, and F. I have absolutely no idea what “communal absolution and grace” even are or why I would need or even want them [emphasis mine]

I can’t speak for you but I can tell you why I want them.  Deitrich Bonhoeffer said:

He who is alone with his sins is utterly alone. It may be that Christians, not withstanding corporate worship, common prayer, and all their fellowship in service, may still be left to their loneliness. The final breakthrough to fellowship does not occur because, though they have fellowship with one another as believers and as devout people, they do not have fellowship as the undevout, as sinners…

When I take communion with other believers, it’s a acknowledgement that we are all sinful, we are all utterly dependent on God’s goodness towards us, and that we are all in the same boat.  Ask an alcoholic about the power of an AA meeting.  It comes primarily from the shared experience of failure, the shared hope of redemption and, if not absolution, than at least forgiveness. 

Look, I’m not trying to throw salt on wounds or wood in the fire or anything, OK? And I’m not picking on Mark specifically, nor am I looking for any more discourses on the doctrine of communion. Just so we’re clear on that. I love all of you and count you as brothers, no matter how you celebrate the Lord’s Table (I don’t, for reasons I’ve gone into before)...

But I have to say, because I think it’s part of the issue here, that when I hear phrases like “public, communal absolution and grace,” there is a part of my brain that lights up big letters W, T, and F. I have absolutely no idea what “communal absolution and grace” even are or why I would need or even want them, so I can hardly be expected to “get” the idea that the act of eating a wafer and drinking some grape juice from a communal cup is going to give me them.

I suspect that we’re talking a lot about stuff that doesn’t really exist. Which is OK, because that’s essentially what theologians do all the time, but take it from the guy in the pew for once: we don’t get this stuff.

That’s a good way to think about it, John. Perhaps it’s lazy thinking (much like my cop-out-ist stance on the creation/evolution thing), but what would you call someone who seriously wants to take a position that there is a something else, but doesn’t want to define exactly what that something else is.

And you can’t say Lutheran! 8-)

IOW, I believe that there is more to communion/eucharist than mere remembrance, but in order to be as inclusive as possible while not going too soft, I won’t define it. I’m content to use the words of institution (say what the Bible says) without having to dogmatically interpret.

Ahem,  the ‘Real Presence’ discussion reminds me of a scene from Life of Brian…

Brian: “Your’e all individuals here”

Anonymous person in crowd: “I’m not”

I’ve been attending Evangelical chruches 30 years now, and I have never once heard the term ‘Real Presence’ spoken in any of them.  Not in Sunday school class, not in memebrship classes, not in by-laws, or boardmeetings.  I had heard the term ‘transubstantiation’, but it was generally reserved for invectives against Catholics.

I know that you say we all agree in some respect, but I was brought up in churches where there was an extremely low view of the Eucharist…so low, that I had never heard that term before either (Eucharist).  We called it the Lord’s Supper, a decidely not-Catholic name.  It was taught as simply a memorial that we did to remember Christ’s crucifixtion.

I was taguht that the elements are only symbolic.  The purpose of the rite (and we would have never called it a rite) is to remind us and center us on Jesus’s sacrifice.  It was not a way to receive grace.  However, there was a negative aspect to it.  Although you could not receive grace from communion, you could incur wrath if you ‘took it in an unworthy manner’. 

As an adult that still carries the spiritual baggage of my youth, I have a hard time seeing the elements as anything other than bread and grape juice.  The implications of this are enormous for me…

I the Eucharist doesn’t provide the public, communal absolution and grace then what does?  In the case of my tradition, we substitute the ‘altar call’ for the Lord’s Supper.  Think about the similarities:  In traditions where the Eucharist is primary, you do it every time you gather.  In my tradition, we have an altar call every service.  Sometimes we’d have two, one at the beginning and one at the end (so the preacher could gage his annointing).  At the altar call is where the Lord’s presence is really manifest, this is the place where sins are forgiven, lives are changed, and grace is received.  The more you feel the real presence of the Lord, the more grace you’ve received.

I don’t really believe this anymore, but I’m having a hard time making the transition to a worship service where the person of Jesus (via the Eucharist) is the centerpiece, and not playing second fiddle to an emotional side-show. 

There’s an ‘open, inclusive’ Episcopal church down the road from me, that will let me participate in the Lord’s Supper every Sunday, but I’d feel like I was using it as a ‘drive-through’, if you take my meaning.  On the other hand, when you’re starving, even fast food looks like a Thanksgiving meal.

 

Michael: indeed.

But can I suggest that for BHT purposes we find another term for what JS describes as “the (luthero-cathol-odox) doctrine of the Real Presence”? Because the term “real presence” is clearly causing problems of communication. All of us, without exception, believe in the real presence of Jesus in the sense in which you mean it, and believe that that “real presence” is the common experience of all Christians.

But some of us also believe something else, something which is in addition to that shared belief and not merely a different way of expressing it. If “respect minus complete agreement” is to be the aim then we need to be able to talk about that “something else” without having it defined out of existence by being subsumed into the common belief we all share. Which I know is no-one’s intention, but is how it feels sometimes.

I’ve offered before Fr Kimel’s term “the real identification”. That would seem to do the trick: it means that those of us who believe the “something else” can talk about it without implying that those who don’t believe the “something else” are somehow lacking the “real presence” of Jesus.

This isn’t about seeking to increase the differences between us. It’s about being able to name them, so as to acknowledge their existence and then get on with exhibiting the “friendship of the baptized” which makes the BHT so special.

I’m glad that in one way or another, everyone at the BHT believes in the real presence of Jesus, and no one is denying it when they have a deep sigh over an RC telling them that to really understand it, they need Aristotle and scholasticism.

I have nothing but deep respect for anyone’s views of the RP. Respect minus complete agreement, which I hope is what the BHT is about.

JS: thank you for your post. That is exactly how I feel about it too. (Though I also feel the same way about justification by faith, and indeed see the two doctrines as two sides of the same coin.)

Spike: You’d need an awful lot of granite to carve the sermon on the mount on a courtroom wall. (jn)

Anyway, putting up the ten commandments in public institutions isn’t about getting people to live according to them (let alone earn eternal salvation by following them). It’s about fetishising them as a cultural marker, “sending out a message” about who is currently winning the culture war.

And turning the ten commandments into a totem is the last thing a Christian society does before it stops being Christian. Take it from someone living in a society where fifty years ago most people would have regarded themselves as Christians, twenty-five years ago those same people said, “Well, I wouldn’t say I’m religious, but I try to live by the ten commandments, of course” (while being unable to recite more than three or four of them), and now – well, the commandments linger on in the societal memory as fodder for the occasional cartoon, but apart from that…

Some hilariously honest reviews of some Christian song demos.

A lurker emailed me a manifesto of sorts—I’ve included the full text after the break in case you’ve all seen it—that included this interesting item:

Why don’t legalists ever insist we live by the law as Christ explained it to us? They always bring out the 10 Commandments, (as if any fallen man could be justified by them) yet forget that Christ told us that those laws go even deeper. Maybe they avoid mentioning Christ’s explanation because Christ tells us that we cannot even hate our brother without being guilty of murder? Or maybe it is because loving the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength excludes making a god out of politics, policy, partisanship, or any other word that starts with a “P” – or doesn’t. Maybe it is because if we are commanded to love our neighbor as our self then we’d have to show grace and compassion toward people we just don’t like – or even worse, who aren’t like us?

It’s interesting, I’ve never seen anyone wanting to post the Sermon on the Mount in schools and courthouses. There may be something to that.

More »« Less

I feel about the (luthero-cathol-odox) doctrine of the Real Presence the way many people here seem to feel about justification by faith: I could not imagine being a Christian without it. Intellectually, I understand that not everyone agrees with it, and I recognize the arguments against it. But I don’t care. The Eucharist is life; I would die if I didn’t have it.

Someone gave me an anti-Catholic video once that went through the whole Aristotelian substance spiel that was mildly interesting. Really, though, who cares about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. It’s all a bunch of crap as Bloodline will show us /heavy jn/

>The best way we have found to try to explain this is using some ideas from Scholastic Aristotelianism about substance and accidents, but that explanation is not the doctrine.

You can already guess what the rest of the post (this was the last sentence) was about.

Sometimes….I don’t know why one even opens a Bible. I really don’t.

Well, great. Now that my pastor is reading the BHT y’all start talking dirty.

Matthew: well, it’s about time we got our own back for this and this. (sw)

(I’ll never forget being in the cinema when the trailer for the first of those films was shown. An audience of students ho-humming through innocuous trailer for lovable kids’n’animals feature, followed by (in quick succession) an audible intake of breath and incredulous laughter when the title appeared on screen. Happy days.)

I admit it: I had to do a double take.

Jabberwocky in Latin.

Mr. Redlegs Takes a Spill

Would someone who knows about auto AC systems email me at the address in the sidebar? 

The problems we were having with our house transaction last week, and which I asked people to pray about, have now been resolved. So thank you for your prayers.

So we were all set to exchange contracts (with tomorrow being the absolute deadline to do so, beyond which the whole thing is probably off), except now – now! – one of the buyers further down the chain has got round to looking at the environmental report she received several weeks ago and is now – now! – concerned that the property she’s buying is in a flood plain. Gah!

So now we’re all waiting around for her to go to the local council offices this afternoon, who will (we hope) reassure her that the whole blinking town is on a blinking flood plain, without any sign of us having to man the lifeboats recently. And then we’ll wait for her to mull it over (because what’s the hurry?) before hopefully things can proceed tomorrow.

I hope we get our new house and that we like it, because I never want to do this ever again if I can possibly avoid it.

Oh sheesh. Not more of this. Arrgh. I have one student totally into this.

Oh….stand by. The “three years with Jesus” test is about to become an IM essay.

Sabbatical countdown: 11 days. I still don’t have a car rented for the middle part of the sabbatical, but so far, so good. The book idea is burning me up, and if I do nothing but write and revise it will be worth it. I obviously don’t want to leave Denise right now, but I’m sure she’s happy for me to have the time (and for her to get a break from the Internet Monk and his fans.) Out of the first four weeks, Denise and I will be together for 2 weeks, so that will be good. I just got a new bundle of books to review, and that will be good as well. Irish pubs, here I come. Just pray I don’t get too near an Apple store.

Michael, you really don’t think our denominational organizations, committees, procedures, etc. are exactly what Jesus had in mind?   You don’t think all of this was carefully calibrated through the filter of Jesus’ person, Jesus’ values, Jesus’ purpose for His new community on earth? 

You just haven’t been to enough Presbytery meetings then…  jn… 

Sincere prayers for your sabbatical, and for all that you’re dealing with in life!

I’m off to Wheaton to pick up my son from his freshman year.  It will be so good to have him home.  I’m flying into Indy, will be picked up by my parents, we’ll travel to Wheaton, assemble the wreckage of his room into the van, and then the next day take off for Eastern PA!

It’s amazing how often people (and I’m sure I’m guilty of it as well) can confuse faith, hope, and love with being an insensitive jackass. Let not your heart be troubled, Michael. You have a lot of people who you’ve never met who love you and Denise because you belong to Christ – BOTH of you. And more importantly than that, Jesus loves you, even when you get to go through periods of life that compare to a steaming pile of skubalon.

There are no words. However, Travis’s comment comes pretty damn close.

120 + comments later, what have I learned today?

Most people are very kind, no matter their team.
I like Dave Armstrong.
I don’t mind Catholics praying for me, and I am glad they do, but it really pisses me off when they start trying to convert me.
I have a lot of friends that, somehow, I’ve helped by just being the mess that I am.
I miss so many things about years past in my marriage that I can’t think about them without tearing up.
Some people are inhumanly committed to weird, abusive, ugly crap and they call it Christianity.
Denise has been a better person than me for a long time, but I still can’t believe any of this has happened.
I’m a bundle of fear.
I need the sabbatical. We need the sabbatical. I’m scared of the sabbatical.
There is no way you will ever ever ever convince me that what we call the church (no matter what our denomination) is what we’d have come up with if we’d hung out with Jesus for 3 years.
Catholics see anti-Catholicism all over, but rarely can see it in themselves.
I still don’t get how anyone can say I’m not going to hell.

Oh, you’ve GOT to be kidding me.  Is it ok to use the phrase, “Douche-baggery?”  Go ahead and delete this if it’s not.

Begin forwarded message:
From: “Batten, Thomas”
Date: May 7, 2008 10:26:24 PM EDT
To:
Subject: Mark my words

Your wife is going to divorce you within one year.

God bless,

Thomas

Agree with Michael.  Copeland, Hinn, Toronto Blessing, Brownsville, and this Florida Outpouring guy – different variations of the same garbage.  There are very few things that cause me to lose my patience and get angry like these con artists.  It’s all about magical deliverance and a God in whom no one really needs faith.  I had friends who went up to Toronto.  I told them it was nonsense.  They explained all about their experience there.  I told them it was nonsense. They gave me prophetic books to read, and I read them and explained to them why they were nonsense.  A whole student “worship” gathering got caught up in this thing at my undergrad college.  The leaders got kicked out.  I was very proud of the college for that.

And no, I don’t need to hear stories about how your great aunt betsy really did come home from Toronto with gold teeth.  Or how the instant you walked into the building in Florida, you fell down and had the demon of satanic music cast from you, and you haven’t been tempted to listen to the Beatles or Led Zeppelin ever since.  

The entire thing is designed to tell you that Job’s story really won’t happen to you.  No worries.  There don’t have to be any questions or struggles.  It can all magically go away, because there’s this guy who got real spiritual, was given magic powers, and he can pass it on to you if you’ll just come forward.

Once again, the question is why won’t evangelical leaders speak honestly: Jesus didn’t heal like this, and all Bible students know it. These guys are 100% fakes, playing on the fears of the sick and hurting, and evangelicals are such spineless cowards about saying these people don’t represent Jesus but are crooks that they are silent.

This is what happens when you need to be pimped into believing in your version of God by allowing this kind of thing to pass. It’s the same reason all the other shams and thieves are the blight of evangelicalism: fear that the truth about God just can’t be handled.

Matthew:

I have some friends who went down there this last week. They are desperate to be healed of a medical condition. I have absolutely no faith in the ‘Florida Outpouring’, but I do have faith in a good God. I prayed for them while they were down there, even as my stomach turned listening to the descriptions of the circus that going on. My heart breaks for them…and I don’t know what to do. How do you tell someone you love, who is in immense pain, that you think they are clinging to a false hope? My answer: you don’t, and hope against hope that God can make some good come out a hopeless situation. May God have mercy on us all…These are the times that faith sees clearly, and theology becomes the law to me.

Michael:

Sorry about the ‘evangelists’, but I’m sure you knew they were going to come out of the woodwork with your public disclosure.  Still, that doesn’t mean its not annoying and indiscreet…Kinda like trying to pick up women at a funeral…its just not appropriate in at the time or place.

It’s with great hesitation that I post my next question wondering if my time wouldn’t be better served teaching Michael Latin for an impending conversion but here it goes:

Anyone know what’s up with this yahoo?

From the ever growing comment thread at IM, this evangelizing convert pleads with me to walk the aisle.

Michael, could it be this website is not only your ministy but God’s as well, could it be God is answering your prayers with a mega phone, and your screaming because it hurts. In the Magicians Nephew all the Uncle could here was Aslan’s roar when he was simply singing the wonders of love and creation. Michael your wife is singing to you, can you here her voice,in her voice is the voice of your Father. Do not be afraid to love, let it go brother, let it go. I think of tomas, paraphrase Lord show us the Father, Oh Michael I have been with you so long don’t you know the Father is in me and I in him. Perfect love casts out all fear. I can imagine Nicodemas saying. I know this man is incarnate beauty but what of the Law, what of are traditons, he appears to bend the text to his incredible claims yet their is a untouchable beauty in is words, his life, his story. Micheal the Church of the firstborn is looking at you in the face. I recall my own Gethsemene, flirting with her ancient doors, looking at all her history and beauty, and then a most solemn dread, Steven I am aswering your question of 10 years,” Lord where is your Church!!!” The flirting beacame all to real, even nashing my teeth after a season of unbelief, a hardening took place. Controling the text became my own slave. But what of this docrine and that and that, surley they are wrong. This man breaks the law, he heels on the sabbath, why don’t they fast, he said he was God’s son, he must have a devil. Your sufferings I’m afraid are self inflicted. Unbelief in light of the truth leads to despair, even madness. I would imagine the Lord came to you first as her head and you would not beleive, and so he approached your spouse next and she responded to the still small voice. Your lack of communion with your wife has nothing to do with God or your wife this breach has everything to do with you. Let it go brother and believe. Do not be afraid.

Matthew: I saw the Evangelical Manifesto mentioned elsewhere. As I’m not an American evangelical I probably don’t have much standing to comment on it, and I will be interested to hear what others think.

However, as a general observation, I suspect that the issuing of “manifestos” and similar documents has been part of the problem of evangelicalism rather than being the basis for a solution. I also have problems with a document which purports to be a “declaration of evangelical identity” and yet makes no mention of baptism and no mention of prayer. Christians are baptised people who pray!

Michael: While obviously I don’t approve of attempts to escape the law/gospel paradigm (jn), Bonhoeffer’s Discipleship is the go-to book for escaping the misuse of the law/gospel paradigm as a means of evading what Jesus is actually saying.

Having listened to your latest podcast yesterday, Discipleship will probably also be a very useful book to take with you on sabbatical as part of your deliberations on the subject of a “Jesus-shaped spirituality” – not least the way in which Bonhoeffer seeks to integrate the contemporary ministry of Word and sacrament with the “Follow me!” of the gospels (rather than setting them at odds with one another, as has happened too often in the church’s history).

Anyone seen this yet? I happened by it through an unnamed Baptist in my Google Reader (unnamed because reading Baptists is kind of embarrassing for a Methodist :-)

Congratulations papa Arledge.  I missed much of my two girls’ infancy and toddlerhood (made that word up), while I was deployed overseas.  Savor every moment you can (in between poopy diapers), caues it goes by fast.

The best guess with the ultra sound is that we will be having a girl in September. I am overwhelmed with joy. Tomorrow is my niece Avery’s first birthday. She is beautiful and vibrant and it brakes my heart my brother will not be there for his daughters first birthday. Joy and sorrow all wrapped up in the same week.
Any name suggestions? My wife will not let me name her Ursuline Grace Arledge. I just like what her initials would be. Go dawgs!

post deleted by author...I do this alot

Michael, any thoughts I could share would ultimately be as wrong as Job’s friends. So all I can say is that you have been and will be in my prayers. May God, the one true God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ bless and keep you and Denise, and may He indeed preserve you and Denise in this life, and may we all join in peace at the resurrection, where all our arguments and differences will melt away in the presence of our Savior.

I really need some help understanding how to escape the imposition of the Law/Gospel paradigm on everything Jesus said in order to properly understand it.

Michael: It hasn’t been hard to piece together what was going on over the past year. I doubt that any of us were surprised, unless they really weren’t paying attention.

I was going to post a rather lengthly personal reaction, then I thought better of it. Anything I could say would just be a clanging gong at this point. I’m glad that Denise is happy, and I’m glad that you are at peace.

I just read the hissy fit Ken Silva threw in my honor today at Slander and Lie Ministries. I’m disappointed free-range Pope Silva didn’t pick up with his previous diagnosis that I was the anti-Christ. It was a fine example of Silva’s exalted prose, though. I hope a couple dozen of his deluded fans enjoy the read. Of course, if we’d have actually linked him here, he’d have gotten more traffic than semi-naked pictures of Joyce Meyer.

Well, excuse me while I go say my prayers to my picture of Thomas Merton and kiss my Richard Foster books before going to bed. Gotta keep my time in purgatory in nice round numbers.

Michael,

I know I’m relatively new in the Tavern, but I’ve been reading about you and your family for a few years now. My heart and prayers go out to you & Denise.

Just after Good Friday, 2007, my wife Denise told me that God had told her to start going to the Roman Catholic church. At the time, we were worshiping with a group of Christians on campus called soli deo after being together in ministry in churches for more than 30 years.

I didn’t react well to that announcement then, and I didn’t react well for the last year.

Tomorrow, my wife Denise has her first class in the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. Sometime in 2009, she will become a Roman Catholic. More »« Less

Aaron: This is a discussion that should not have been brought to the BHT main page at all, but I understand Josh wanted to deal with his feelings where we could all read it. The fact is that this deals with a conflict between individuals over things that are NOT on the blog in the past many days. So you won’t know what’s going on, because only a few of us do, and that as a result of email.

Just don’t worry about it, and if you want to say anything to Josh, email him.

I read the BHT everyday and sometimes have no clue what is going on. I be Clueless. Are post responses to email or what?

I have treated Josh shamefully in public for years, so I owe him a public apology. My regret can’t be as detailed or voluminous as my excoriation, but it is sincere and strong.

I’m sorry, Josh.

I’m going to take May off to meditate on my incredible hypocrisy and bizarre, insane treatment of Josh over the years, and I hope Josh will stay.

OK. We’ve had some clarification of a sort and this is a matter between individuals that won’t be discussed on the blog. I will let these posts stand, but I will delete further posts from the gallery. This is a problem that’s happened AT the BHT, but it’s not ABOUT the BHT.

So prayers, cheers, pleas and expressions of confusion can cease and desist.

Yeah, seriously – Mark and I even talked in real life about liking Josh and appreciating his contributions.

So, stick around, man.

I was wondering the same thing.  I know you’ve torqued me off one time, but this must be coming from something that’s not being posted on BHT?  I know I’d prefer that you stay. 

Don’t go, Josh. Yours is a needed perspective.

Josh, don’t go. I have appreciated our discussions and the fact that you never fail to call me out and take me to task. You would be missed.

Josh, I’d be disappointed if you left. There have been several times that I thought you were the sane one in the conversation. I’m sure we see things very differently, but I want to hear what you have to say.

I hope I have never said anything to hurt you. And I hope that no one here has done so on purpose. I care.

I can deal with a lot of crap. I can’t deal with someone telling me that I deserve to be hurt, I deserve to be unloved, and I deserve to have years of love given to someone else end in loss and rejection. I really can’t deal with people reminding me, should I be so foolish as to object, that I deserve to have such vicious words spoken to me because I believe in closed communion, or I like to argue, or I’m sarcastic or whatever. That didn’t happen this time because I didn’t object too strenuously. However, merited or unmerited, such remarks cut deep, and you guys either don’t know or don’t care how much they hurt because either I’m oversensitive, or I’m a clod who doesn’t realize with what justice such words are said, or some other reason why I deserve to be cut. Every time something like this has happened, there’s always been a reason why I really deserved it. But even if that’s the case, then I don’t see any reason to be here, because rather than making me realize “Wow, yeah, I really am a douchebag. I should try to be more like these guys, and then maybe someone would love me.  Thanks for the help, guys!” such remarks just make me more and more upset as days go by. So I want off the site.

While on your rounds today, please offer up a prayer for the people of Myanmar.  The death toll has risen from the hundreds initially reported to tens of thousands (40,000 at the moment).  For those interested, World Vision has set up a fund to bring aid to the country. 

While I wait with bated breath to read Michael’s highly-anticipated report, I find myself laughing, repeatedly, at the quote Mark excerpted.

News flash to all: Christ’s honor needs no help from you, nor me, nor anyone. Your own shame ought to keep you in check more than it does, but Christ actually embraced shame to bring glory to His Father, so I don’t think random human perceptions of honor – or dishonor – mean all that much to Him. Thanks for playing.

I’m trying really, really, really hard to not let this register in my brain as yet another strike against dispensationalism. Given that my favorite dispensationalist (a guy at my church) just recently decided that maybe, just maybe, there was something to some of these other readings of Revelation, there’s not much positive left for me there.

Not to give K-S-I-L-V-A any more air time than he deserves, but this made me chuckle:

I am involved in the unconventional tactics of Special Ops in this spiritual Vietnam we call a Truth War.

For Christ’s honor I labor,

Ken Sil*va, pastor-teacher
Firebase Apprising

 

From Kyle Potter:

Anglican Mission on Campus.

Coming soon to a central Kentucky Baptist college near you.

This summer.

Booyah!

Also, Mark, I agree with your assessment of the stupidity of the view expressed. The logical conclusion of that line of thought would lead to drinking the KoolAid.

I was engaged in a discussion about political involvement when a certain comment chilled me to the bone:

It is very hard for me to oppose abortion since my theology tells me that aborted children go immediately into the presence of the Lord without having to live in this evil world.

Whether you think abortion should be legal or not, this statement, with all the dogmatic bagagge it carries, encapsulates everything that can go wrong with theology.  Michael wrote a few pieces not long ago (too much heaven?) that point out a lot of reasons for being a christian apart from the Great Relocation Package.  Where does this kind of thinking come from?

This is the worst kind of abuse, to abdicate responsibilty for the means because the end is heaven.  The gospel of Jesus is not a suicide pact…

God willing, tomorrow I’m going to unburden myself in this space of what’s been driving me crazy the past year. With God’s help through many different means, I think I’m ready to talk about it.

Tune in tomorrow, and no, I’m not joining the staff of CRN.

No one can squeeze as much out of a single book in a seminary class booklist as free-range pope wannabe Ken Silva.

Apprising Ministries further alerting the Body of Christ to growing apostasy within the Southern Baptist Convention through the proliferation of Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism. You’ll see that New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary is also promulgating The Cult of Guru Richard Foster as this SBC seminary uses the Quaker Swami’s Celebration of Discipline in one of their own courses on so-called “spiritual formation” as does Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary. The question is: Why does the “Protestant” SBC need to turn to a Quaker mystic for spiritual formation which is in direct counterpoint to the Reformation?

I can’t believe that we still have people who link this constant slander. Silva is everything wrong with blogging, and the bloggers who link him are the rest of what’s wrong.

I did the Steve Brown show today. It will air Friday. Steve is the real deal. I really enjoy talking with him between segments. We have a lot of fun.

Jim, Jack and Van Til. There’s a line-up.

Michael – tell Steve to take calls during your segment, and have members of the tavern call in and harass you for not being truly reformed, not being neo-orthodox, not being Catholic, etc.

Or, send Jack or myself in your place. That should be really interesting.