Damn.

I mean, “Oh rats”.

Jack H: No, you don’t have to wear deodorant, but you’ve got to start wearing pants.

Look, if you want to shut up the “why do they hate us” guy, just tell him to shut up and read this table from the many resources available from the INS. If “they” hate us so much, how come so many of “them” are trying to get in? Each of the “reasons” is in fact an unfounded assertion couched in conotative language. Remember, the ones that really do hate us are just as happy to kill blithering idiots as they are the rest of us. Once and for all:

Will all of you who hate western civilization so much please leave now?

We need the space. Thank you.

A WOMAN!!!!???? Here?!! At the BHT?!

HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND!!!!!

(Apologies to Denise, who – while technically a woman – is also married to the proprietor and therefore knows what we’re all like.)

I hope this doesn’t mean I have to start wearing deodorant…

Gregory: I don’t think he’ll mind. When he completes the final draft, I’ll see if he minds if I post it.

They’re getting ready to communicate touch via the web. How long do you think it will take before the porn industry latches onto this? On an over/under of a week, I’d say under.

Here is an interesting quote (from Rebecca Haglin’s Heartbeat):
“The thought of modern industry in the hands of Christian charity is a dream worth dreaming. The thought of industry in the hands of paganism is a nightmare beyond imagining. The choice between the two is upon us.”
—Teddy Roosevelt

Eric: It would be interesting to see the entire paper, if the student would allow.

It is great when you have a student who tries to break out of the freshman mold in his or her writing. I assigned Cause and Effects papers the other day, and in the midst of a glut of papers about teen pregnancy and divorce and suicide, one student wrote about why the chicken crossed the road. Here’s an excerpt:
“Another reason this biped might have perambulated perpendicularly over pavement might be, “to prove to the ‘possum that it could be done.” Helping others is a sign of a higher being. Maybe this chicken decided it was time that the senseless slaughter of ‘possums should end. This enlightened chicken, like Buddha, wanted to end suffering and took it upon himself (or herself) to lead the ‘possum into the light.”
Funny stuff.

Michael, what is Dan’s email address?

Poor Winona Ryder. Seems her director told her to steal for a role. Robert Blake should use this defense. I was studying for a mob role.

Matthew: A couple of points here:

Trying to sabotage the Kyoto treaty. The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population yet it produces 25% of the world’s CO2 emissions (a gas which causes global warming). Beyond the pseudo-science called global warming (which I could produce tomes on), NASA satellite studies have shown that more dangerous emissions (at least in 2000) came from the Amazon basin, Africa, Southeast Asia and China. While the U.S. does lead in emissions, the emissions are consistently in the green, as far as gases that cause the potentially mythical global warming.

The United States withheld $34,000,000 in funds which were earmarked for United Nations family planning programs. The $34,000,000 was to be used to prevent around 2,000,000 unwanted pregnancies through contraception (and as a result prevent nearly 800,000 abortions), as well as preventing about 4,700 maternal deaths, nearly 60,000 cases of serious maternal illness, more than 77,000 infant and child deaths and of course a huge number of new HIV infections. While this is certainly wonderful rhetoric, and probably true (in an out of context sort of way), the truth is that the most used family planning program in the world today is to get rid of the evidence after the act.

America denied Africans AIDS drugs through the international aid agency. US president ‘select’ George Dubya’s choice for the US Agency for International Development, Andrew Natsios, refused to give antiviral drugs to the 25 million Africans that suffer from AIDS arguing that Africans need to be taught moral values such as “abstinance” instead. The only point I can see here is the world hates us because we do not bankrupt ourselves for every single need somewhere in another country. While I do not think the abstinence comment is completely warranted (notice, no cite here, so it could be conjecture), there is only so much money. Oh, wait, this is a left wing site (see bottom of page), so the belief is all of our money belongs to the government to dole out as they see fit.

Outraging human rights groups and possibly even breaking the Geneva Convention by locking up foreign citizens in outdoor wire cages without legal aid (help), without bringing any charges against of these ‘suspects’, nor presenting any evidence against them. All free countries are allowed to detain prisoners of war without juris prudence. The issue here is most countries curtail to the terrorists when they are attacked in their own country, as France has done numerous times. Newsflash, Leftie boy, some detainees freed this week stated that they were chained and questioned, but overall their treatment was very nice.

Insisting that the Palestinians abandon their elected leader Yasser Arafat. The Palestinians should be allowed to choose their own leaders, they do not need their decisions ‘rubber stamped’ by America; its called democracy. Or mob rule. This is one of the reasons America is not a democracy, to stop people like you with radical ideas from being able to bend the law at your every whim. At times, peace requires that despots are removed.

Refusing to sign-up to the International Criminal Court, the purpose of which is to prosecute war criminals should their own country refuse to act. The primary purpose of the ICC founding was to legitimize going after Milosivic who killed 100,000, oops 50,000, oops 10,000, oops less than 3,000 in “massive” genocide. While I do not condone Milosivic’s actions, the numbers fit more with a war than with massive genocide. Oh, wait, most media outlets have glossed over the fact that the numbers are so small because they are playing up the fact that the numbers keep dwindling in the WTC horror.

America have begun preparations to test a new generation of nuclear weapons after strong signs that the Bush administration may be about to pull out of the landmark Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty in order to create bunker-busting ‘mini’ nukes. Very worrying. I think the word is worrisome, grammar genius. Either way, it appears that the primary thrust is on weapons that can stop nukes from hitting America. On the other hand, peace is often secured by knowing the other guy can kick the crap out of you.

Pulling out of and attempting to discredit The World Conferene Against Racism in Durban, South Africa. America got all upset because certain countries called Israel a racist and apartheid state. It is very hard to fight the ignorance here, as the friendly Arabs have tried to wipe out the Jews many times since 1948. In each case, the strong army of the nation of Israel has fought off the opposition. Now, I do not agree with everything the nation of Israel has done, but it is hard to criticize until you have sat in that bunker.

I guess I have had enough fun for one morning on a topic that probably means so little to the left leaning morons in the world, who seem to believe that the only way to have peace is to take from those who are productive and give to those who are not, as if this method of curing poverty (which has been grossly unsuccessful and counter-productive) is the only means of showing any compassion.

Hmmmm. I hear they are coming to Asbury next.

Yes- you BLEW UP the BHT and we are all now POSTING FROM THE GREAT BEYOND.

Did I blow up the BHT? It worked fine until I posted and now I cannot access it. Oops!

I find it humorous if not a little disconcerting that the lead story for msnbc.com is about the possibility of a Republican sweep on Nov. 5. On foxnews.com that story is nowhere to be seen. Looks as if msnbc is trying to get the dems to get out and vote in order to avoid this possible travesty of justice. But there’s no bias in the media…..

W.G.: Interesting that we have heretics in the RCC and the PCUSA united in their insistence that homosexuality is not a sin, but ought to be recognized as moral. Nice way to celebrate Reformation Week.

MatthewJ: The U.N., little cars, because Walter Cronkite likes the world, because the world likes Bill Clinton, because most of it is a freakin’ mess and insists we fix all their problems, because they think we made our money by taking it from them when they didn’t have any in the first place, because they drive on the wrong side of the road, because they don’t know that a cowboy is a good thing.

Gregory: CRI Journal is one of the two or three best Christian publications anywhere. A subscription (for me) would make an excellent Christmas gift;-)

Check out this website called “Why the World Hates America”. I’m tempted to do a sarcastic clone of this site called “Why America Hates the World”. Help me think of some good ones. Mine is “America hates the world because the rest of the world won’t get off their butts and learn English”.

I saw an interesting article in the Christian Research Journal on tolerance. In the article, the author talks about the tolerance trap. The dialog goes something like this:

Teacher: What is tolerance.
Students: The willingness to accept all other ideas as equal.
Teacher: Here is an idea: Jews need to turn to Jesus because he is the only way to heaven.
Student: You can’t say that.
Teacher: Why not?
Student: Because it is intolerant.

By the students own definition, the student is the one being intolerant. He goes on to explain that tolerance is not acceptance of ideas, but how we treat people whose ideas are radically different from our own.

On another note, the magazine also has a nice article on the whole Left Behind trend and how it is bad theology. I may have to purchase a copy just to read the whole thing.

Michael: The tatoo remark was partially tongue in cheek. I guess I should have been a bit more serious about the debate and found another defiling practice.

Apparently, you were not the only one that caught this:

Slate published this morning’s Bushism based on this Associated Press account. In fact, the AP story misattributes the quote to Bush. The statement was made by Chinese president Jiang Zemin, as this transcript shows. Slate apologizes for the error.

DOBBS FERRY — Presbyterians from throughout the region came to the South Presbyterian Church yesterday and openly defied their denomination’s stand on homosexuals by reaffirming the ordination vows of about a dozen gay clergy and lay leaders, who under Presbyterian law should not be ordained.

The afternoon service drew almost 300 people from throughout the Hudson Valley region, including Westchester, Putnam and Rockland counties as well as New York City. The ceremony commemorated the Reformation, and participants recreated Martin Luther’s act of nailing calls for reform onto a door standing at the sanctuary’s altar.

They missed the point of Luther’s act. He was not just calling for reform, esp. not of a clear biblical position, but for reform against extra-biblical and often apostate or heretical teachings. But, I guess I need to take revisionist Luther 101 again, because I am a horrible homophobe who needs to be re-indoctrinated. The first one did not take.

I have just admitted a woman to the BHT. One Megan. Now I KNOW….I KNOW…...I KNOW…..Just clean up the restroom and pick Angus up off the floor. (I warned her.)

ERIC: I found your last post to be a life-changing piece of wisdom. Can I put it on a t-shirt? (Dan’s first day as principal is Friday. I know he’d love to get some encouragement from you. He’s lost 170 pounds since March!)

“Nations Urge N. Korea to Drop Nukes”—headline, ABCNews.com, Oct. 26

A selection from over at WSJ Online. An amazing case of media bias:

Slate, the online magazine that gave us “monkeyfishing,” has also created a tiresome feature called the “Bushism of the Day.” Jacob Weisberg, who succeeded Michael Kinsley as editor, scours the president’s statements and takes short quotes out of context, attempting to make Bush look stupid by putting into writing his spoken quotes. This is a cheap gimmick; few people speak in polished sentences and paragraphs, and you could make almost anyone look dumb by employing the Weisberg method.
Still, today’s “Bushism of the day” breaks new ground. Here it is:

“I would like to express my deep condolences for the loss of the Senate.”—Commenting on Sen. Paul Wellstone’s death, Crawford, Texas, Oct. 25, 2002

Now, let’s go to the transcript, which is of a joint appearance with Bush and China’s President Jiang Zemin. It begins with Bush speaking:

Thank you for coming, President Jiang.

PRESIDENT JIANG: Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen. I just learned that one plane crashed. I would like to express my deep condolences for the loss of the Senate. And also I would like to express my condolences to the bereaved family.

Did Weisberg deliberately present Jiang’s words as Bush’s in a dishonest attempt to make Bush look bad? It’s hard to imagine he did, and we certainly know of no reason to question the Slate editor’s integrity. More likely, Weisberg was just being sloppy. Even so, this is pretty stunningly slipshod. Someone who demands perfect syntax in spoken expression ought to be more careful in his own writing.

Why does anything matter at all? I mean why should ANYTHING matter at all? The irony is that the only authority for talking about Baptism is the only authority that says these guys are in no position to bring their children to the font.

Constitution? What constitution?

This is more like it. Apostate. Period.

One of the PCUSA’s best has gone home.

Gregory: “As such, tatoos can be considered in the same light, except that they only involve one person being defiled instead of two.”

ESV Leviticus 19:28 You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD.

I’m going to have to disagree with you here Gregory. This verse- the only verse in Leviticus or the Bible mentioning tatoos- already has problems because the Hebrew word can mean painting or cutting. Several translations use other phrases, such as the ASV which says “print any marks,” or the JPS, which says “incise any marks.” I think the ESV gets it best. Also, the structure of the verse is redundant parallelism, so that the first statement- “for the dead”- makes it clear that what is being proscribed here is some kind of Canaanite grieving ritual. I think its probably safe to say religious and overtly idolatrous in nature. I do not think a butterfly on the ankle or “Mom” on the arm is what is described.

I always wonder why this more Christians who use this verse to say tatoos are wrong aren’t practicing the preceding verse: ESV Leviticus 19:27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

In answering students about Leviticus, I always take them to this passage, which I think is a good reminder of how to read all these verses that amount to “be different.” Leviticus 18:1-4 NIB Leviticus 18:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God.

Blah blah blah blah LINUX. Blah de blah blah OS, blah blah blah Windows. Blah blah blah blah, yada yada yada, blah—BLAH BLAH WINDOWS BLAH APPLE BLAH XIMIAN!!! Blah blah…UNIX. Blah?

I don’t think justification is a possibility for either.

C’mon Bart, take a swing at it!

Jack: risking a bottle thrown at my head Here is one:

UNIX Geek: Oh God, I am thankful that I am not as these muddle masses who use an inferior Operating System. I have no security breaches, email viruses or blue screens of death, as this Windows Weenie does. I backup regularly and pay attention to tuning my system for optimal performance.

Windows Weenie: I admit my ignorance, but I love the kewl screen savers.

Of course, I find neither justified in this, so perhaps I can try again.

Jim: As one who architects both User Interfaces and applications, I agree that the normal application is not nearly simple enough for those who use it. My moto:

“As soon as you think you’ve developed an application that is idiot proof, the world comes along and builds a better idiot!”

Unfortunately, no amount of making the applications better or educating the masses will stop Joe Average Guy from clicking something that will destroy his computer or SPAM all of his buddies, who will be either as dense or uninformed to do the same thing, creating a perpertual ignorance/stupidity machine. I feel for the ignorant, but have little tolerance for stupidity.

By the way, I like the work Ximian has done for both Linux and UNIX. They are also the ones most likely to move .NET onto the Linux platform first. As for email, Microsoft tried to implement a way to protect users, but they can only do so much before they start inconveniencing the masses. If the UNIX/Linux email program market were bigger, it is likely you would see a bigger target. At present, it is steady, at about 2% of the market, at least for desktops. UNIX is quite a bit bigger in the server market, of course, which is natural, as it is nearly bulletproof. More and more small and medium businesses seem to be moving to Microsoft … a trend likely to head the other direction if Microsoft does not instill some good feelings about security soon.

W.G.: I agree with the comment on sexual depravity, but would like to point out that homosexuality is seen in that light as an abomination of God (Spencer’s comment, not mine—KJV). Would Sodom have been destroyed if not for homosexuality? I cannot answer that, but I would tend to side on you with this one. As for hmosexuality as a sin; we know that God views sin as separation from His plan; it does not matter whether you step off (little white lie) or you run a motorcycle off the cliff (mass murder)—the end result is the same: death.

Michael: I can see where Hayford is coming from, as we do defile ourselves with sexual sin. But, when you really look at it, we defile ourselves with almost any sin; perhaps not physically in some cases, but certainly both mentally and spiritually. The best argument I have for sexual sin being worse is it defiles the person physically, as well. As such, tatoos can be considered in the same light, except that they only involve one person being defiled instead of two.

OS Wars
I wonder how the story of the Pharisee and the Publican would play out if we substituted “Windows Weenie” and “Unix Geek” for the main players?

I’m just going to pull my head out of my turtle shell (aside to Angus: note thinly veiled UNIX reference here, and loved your post BTW) long enough to point out that Gore Vidal and Albert Gore are, I believe, blood relations. It would appear that this sort of thing runs in the family. Now back to your regularly scheduled tarring and feathering, all ready in progress.

Ladies and gentlemens… here’s a little more evidence as to the high-minded nature of our modern entertainment outlets.

I know we have a few people who see black helicopters in this Tavern, but Gore Vidal really goes beyond the fence in his recent ravings about the president. Check out this excerpt from an article here:

“Vidal’s highly controversial 7000 word polemic titled ‘The Enemy Within’ – published in the print edition of The Observer today – argues that what he calls a ‘Bush junta’ used the terrorist attacks as a pretext to enact a pre-existing agenda to invade Afghanistan and crack down on civil liberties at home.
Vidal writes: ‘We still don’t know by whom we were struck that infamous Tuesday, or for what true purpose. But it is fairly plain to many civil libertarians that 9/11 put paid not only to much of our fragile Bill of Rights but also to our once-envied system of government which had taken a mortal blow the previous year when the Supreme Court did a little dance in 5/4 time and replaced a popularly elected President with the oil and gas Bush-Cheney junta.’
Vidal argues that the real motive for the Afghanistan war was to control the gateway to Eurasia and Central Asia’s energy riches. He quotes extensively from a 1997 analysis of the region by Zgibniew Brzezinski, formerly national security adviser to President Carter, in support of this theory. But, Vidal argues, US administrations, both Democrat and Republican, were aware that the American public would resist any war in Afghanistan without a truly massive and widely perceived external threat.
“Osama was chosen on aesthetic grounds to be the frightening logo for our long-contemplated invasion and conquest of Afghanistan … [because] the administration is convinced that Americans are so simple-minded that they can deal with no scenario more complex than the venerable, lone, crazed killer (this time with zombie helpers) who does evil just for the fun of it ‘cause he hates us because we’re rich ‘n free ‘n he’s not.’ Vidal also attacks the American media’s failure to discuss 11 September and its consequences: ‘Apparently, “conspiracy stuff” is now shorthand for unspeakable truth.’”

W.G.: Good comments and welcome. In my Bible survey classes I have to read the text of Genesis so much that I have some pretty stubborn opinions about what I think the text is trying to convey in a literary sense. To me, when you let Genesis 1-19 loose with an average reader, they would conclude that the narrative is leading you to see the homosexual gang rape as the final peice of disgusting evidence of how far human beings have come from the sexual harmony of Genesis 2. Then Romans 1 selects the same theme as the primary line of evidence in Paul’s recounting of the same trip. I wouldn’t argue that it is a unique abomination, but I do believe, with Jack Hayford, that Sexual Sins are, in some ways, worse than others.

1. They stain the deepest part of a person’s identity.
2. They exploit the deepest aspects of our emotionality.
3. They pollute the fountainhead of our highest creativity.
4. They produce guilt that cripples our confidence in God’s forgiveness.
5. They expose us to the risk of begetting and conceiving an unsupported child.
6. They compromise the foundation of life’s deepest human relationship.
7. They increase the probability of multiplying the speed of disease.
8. They give place to appetites that can only beget further unnatural behavior.
9. They break trust with the whole body of Christ.
10. They assault the pure lordship of Jesus in our lives.
“Why Sex Sins are Worse that Others” by Jack Hayford. Charisma & Christian Life. October 1989, pages 68-75.

I didn’t know Angus was computer-friendly. I LOOOOOOVE it when you guys talk about things I do not understand!

RonH: The Making of the New Testament, Patzia, IVP. Intro to the NT, Raymond Brown, ABR (Excellent), Oxford Companion to the Bible, Metzger, editor. The Canon of the NT, Metzger.

Gregory: To me, Romans 1 is so inescapable in its use of homosexuality as the prima facia evidence for idolatry, depracity, etc that I am not afraid to talk about it. I have a “Walk through the Bible” type presentation on the subject I use with students. It is always clear that this is a sin no different from any other, but I have to point out that as evidence of the human condition, it is quite another matter.

OOPS! I’m sorry. I’m not blinky the cursor head UNIX developer. I enjoy a graphical interface while I work in a .NET shop building web applications that smoke. It seems that Jim the omniscient has taken upon himself to bring up the nasty little rumor (insert whisper here) that he uses the computer to do things of an immense magnitude. Far beyond the realm of the average, everyday, business user.(stop whispering and start yelling) FOR HE IS LINUS, protector of all who are graphically challenged and sidekick to APPLEMAN (Millionaire Steve Jobs, cre-a-tor of the most perfect OS ever devised, APPLE).

In todays episode, Appleman and linus will go against the evil forces of Emperor Gates – Ruler of the desktop computing world.

Appleman: Linus, we must find away to get our superior OS into the hands of the general public.
Linus: That’s right! the public needs to be able to more than running Shockwave animations of the Flinstones trying to sell me vitamins, surfing porn sites, or even researching sermon illustrations.

Appleman: I know, lets give a buttload of our computers to schools for free. Then, once they get hooked on using all for this free stuff, we’ll own the market AND put them in a position to have to use our software (or that officially licensed to our OS platform).

Linus: Brilliant!

Meanwhile, somewhere in Redmond:

Emporer Gates: Darth Baumer, it is time that we secretly proliferate our OS throughout the universe. Please let it be known that any software company that wishes to develop for our platform may do so for free.
Dart Baumer: Brilliant!

How will this saga end? who will be the victor? are the school children ever going to get their apples? Tune in next week at the same apple time, on the same apple channel, for the next exciting episode of ….APPLEMAN- da-na-na-na-na- NA NA!

Does anyone else find this a little contradictory?
The frustrated Clinton – who dorms in nearby University College – wants to get an off-campus lovenest with her boy, but Bill Clinton and his security advisers have put the kibosh on the idea, reports the London Mirror.

Nice to see that my home state has a chance to be seen
And I mean seen.

Finally, it look like there’s some strange things happenin’ with our neighbors to the north…
“Wearing a sparkling mask and shimmering Halloween wig, Reyes said she practises yoga religiously and often enjoys stretching in the nude.”
“”There are a lot of things done in Vancouver that seem natural that would seem unnatural elsewhere,” said Wilson.”

RE: Streaker @ football game: Here’s a streaker who slipped, knocked himself unconcious, and had to be carried off on a stretcher, in full view of thousands of fans.

Speaking of strange sights at sports events. What’s the deal with all the uniformed todlers in the Giants dugout and on the field of play. Surely there are rules!? (in the event of a bench-clearing brawl whose knees do the kids go for?)

Ok, hang on. I’m not blaming Microsoft, nor am I trying to start OS wars; I know better than to bring up religion at BHT. I’ll agree that it’s wrong to place the blame on Microsoft, since most Windows emails tools let users do the same thing.I’ll agree with Gregory that a lot of the problem comes from people following bad practices, but as Einstein once said, “everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Reading your mail should be simple, but if reading your mail involves accepting software onto your computer that will make secret arbitrary connections to remote computers, download pornographic images, send your private information across the wire to some third party, and potentially harrass all of your aquaintances, then maybe you shouldn’t read your mail – or maybe you need an email platform that prevents you from doing stuff like that. The one I use lets me even block image loading in HTML mail. As far as Bart’s question about what 99% of the people should use, gee, I don’t know. I use computers in ways that have nothing to do with running Shockwave animations of the Flinstones trying to sell me vitamins, surfing porn sites, or even researching sermon illustrations. In my work, I rarely use a computer that costs less than $25k; at home, each of our 4 computers was put together and installed by me from component parts. I’ll fully admit to being out-of-touch with what Joe Average does when he sits down to use a computer. I find it odd that nobody ever even questions why email programs need to do all this crap, but maybe that’s because I’m one of those condesending UNIX users .

There was a streaker at the Arkansas/OleMissus game on Saturday. Actually, he wasn’t a REAL streaker because he wasn’t totally naked. He had a plastic hog helmet on his melon and a red thong with a Col. Reb doll (the olemissus mascot) on the front. Hilarious. Here’s all the AP pics. They’re safe as long as a cheek doesn’t bother you. He ran into the Ark. huddle, congratulated the qb on a good game, darted for the sidelines and was tackled by a couple of state troopers.

Jim: While the outlook mailbox was compromised by the Cytron “virus”, the only additional damage done here was propogating the virus to other users. A user with Pegasus, et al, could still be personally infected. I find the blaming of Outlook to be misplaced responsibility. If Microsoft were not the most popular email client, it is very likely Cytron would have found a way to hijack another email programs lists.

I use Outlook and Outlook Express, and have yet to have been infected by a virus. There are a couple of reasons. First, I do not click on “here is a picture of me naked” attachments with an extension of .vbs. Second, if I click to a site that wants to install software, I check the name of the software. On new builds, I have installed Shockwave or Flash from a site, but I am very wary of apps called PornDialer … even Cytron. While the tactics are deplorable, users should be educated to be a bit more careful when clicking yes on popups.

The unfortunate thing is the software companies can only put so much protection on their products and still have them work. While you seem to think Microsoft is the king of pain here, if they lose market share, you will still see infections. It will just be a different product.

I found this on the net…it’s a weird weird world.

Michael: Did you read the defense argument for the viri like method Cytron uses? He claims there are many other publicly traded companies doing far worse. So, the next defense in our criminal courts is, “yes, I killed him, but there are serial killers out there.”

I like the 2 Timothy 4:16-18 reference. It is much like the salvation experience. A person hits rock bottom, at least in some area of his life, and God is there to lift him up. As for your charismatic friend, God reaches different people in different ways. As long as a church is scripturally bound, the nature of worship is window dressing. If we all were the same, we would all be driving around in model Ts (which would be pretty cool to see, but that’s another story).

Be careful on the abomination argument against homosexuality (Lev 18:22, 20:13), as there are plenty of abominations that you can be hit back with. Much of the food we eat is an abomination before God (Lev 11). As touching the dead carcass of these animals is an abomination, and swine is included, you could make an argument that football (pigskin) is an abomination. I am not stating that you are speaking the truth, but that it is a potentially rocky road with the over-educated, under-spiritually fed scholar.

On the master of cats. I think an apt punishment is to put him in a cell with a bobcat and let him try to have sex with it. I don’t think the cat would be amused with its master. ;->

Richard: I do not try to hit homosexuals with the bible, unless they try to warp it to fit their agenda. Whether rape or homosexuality, both deal with the concept of sex outside of marriage, which is quite easy to build an argument up against. The homosexual answer is allow them to marry, which may be why they will not compromise with a union that is legally equivalent of marriage, but does not have the same title.

JIM:
What would you suggest that 90% of today’s business workforce switch to?

MichaelS, it boggles the mind that people still use Outlook and Outlook express. I propose that those who do be forced to wear “infect me with p0rn spam” t-shirts for the next 3 years.

So would he be a tiger then, or a lepord, or a panther? I wonder if he also proclaims to be a master baker as well?

My son and I have been laughing at “Master of Cats” all weekend. Very appropriate for Halloween.

This is about as low as you can go.

“While in jail, he would sleep under his cot, paint cat-like stripes on his body and make drawings referring to himself as “master of cats.” “

PETA must be thrilled.

Looks like MatthewJ will be heading for the Great White North. Bring us back a rubbing for the BHT.

Today—- what a day. Intro to Job at 8 a.m. Revelation 4-5 at 10. I Corinthians 9 at 11. (First time I ever preached on camera. I hated it. Absolutely hated it. Very distracting.) Lunch at 12:45. Admissions interviews 1:30-4:30. 30 minutes of prep time. Nap 5- 5:45. Back to school to lead music AND preach on II Tim 4 at 7. Now back home to prepare for another sermon tomorrow morning. My morning prep time is taken up because they want me to go through several student computers in the morning. Normally that time is sacred for study, but this is necessary, so here we go with a late night. Worst thing, I can’t hang out in a bar when I live like this! Anybody want to come do my job for a couple of weeks.

Am I wrong to be slightly annoyed that famous preachers preach the same sermon 10,000 times and I have to come up with 3-5 new ones a week?

You know what’s cool? This: 2 Timothy 4:16-18 16 At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them! 17 But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. When God takes away everyone, he stands by us. I challenged the students to become the kind of people that when everyone drops out, dies or leaves on their own paths, you can stand alone and say Jesus is enough. He always stands by us in those times. In fact, sometimes he takes away what we think we have to have to show us that he is enough (Job.)

Tonight’s game involves reading the following article about a man who has sex with a chicken, and finding the following three phrases: 1) “sex with a Rottweiller,” 2) “molesting the geese” and 2) “master of cats.” Have a good time.

Re: The So-Called “Expert” Witness who claims the Bible played little role in the development of US Law: Moron.

Such a claim is analogous to stating that the Wright Brothers played little role in the development of the Boeing Corporation.

Welcome to W.G. (I assume that is what he wants to go by.) I would say the new guy is buying, but he’s an associate minister and having done that, I can be fairly certain he won’t be able to afford it.

I had a most discouraging talk yesterday with a co-worker (charismatic, but very solid, well taught) who was saying they wouldn’t be returning to our church after visiting. They said I am a great teacher (right), but the liturgy was too much. In our service we have: a responsive Psalm, often as the call to worship. A general confession (where we admit we are sinners), The Lord’s Prayer and the Apostle’s Creed. That is the extent of congregation’s verbal involvment in the liturgy. Then we have prayers, and two scripture lessons, two hymns, 2-4 choruses, Gloria Patri and Doxology. This person said if the service was more charismatic contemporary it would be better, because saying the LP and the AC every week was a real negative for them.

I pointed our 1) The service is self consciously Bible centered. Loads of Bible. Minimum of preacher yacking. 2) Every church has a predictable liturgy, even people who bark and fall over. Certainly most evangelical charismatic worship services follow a predictable pattern. 3) The LP and the AC aren’t said to get points for repetition. They are two anchors. After all OUR prayers, we say the LORD’S prayer so we at least get something right. After I’ve said my bit in the sermon, we say the AC so we all respond and confess, and at least something orthodox is said. (BTW- the Sunday the person was there we actually skipped the AC, but they saw it in the order of service. 4) We have opened the Bible, found what the Bible says should happen in worship and done that, and nothing else. No invitation. No performance music. It is a self consciously intentionally Biblically regulated service, because I read Leviticus 10:1-3 ESV Leviticus 10:1 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized(1 fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. 3 Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD has said, ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’”And Aaron held his peace. It’d like to avoid this if possible.

A sad moment that good, God loving people won’t worship in my church. But this is the price I am paying to go against the grain. I always joke with our people that if you are at our church, you can be sure you want to be. I made it clear that if their family- who are excellent CCM musicians- were in our church, that would have some affect on how we worship, because our worship is a collective reflection of the congregation that worships as well as the Bible we read. But worship is regulated by our understanding of what the Bible says worship is. It made me doubly grateful for another family, similar in almost every way, that has chosen our church BECAUSE OF the Word and its centrality. “A music centered service…...” Good grief.

“Putin has only one choice. (U.S. President George W.) Bush showed the world what to do with these bastards after September 11. It’s Putin’s turn to liquidate them in Russia.” – An ordinary Russian’s comment after the end of the Moscow Hostage drama. Obviously not related the Michael Moore.

Richard: Interesting passages and issues. I think Genesis 19 is following on the general themes of Genesis. Human beings deserve the full wrath of God’s judgement. In Genesis there are only two examples of this, and both of them are tempered with God’s covenant mercy. The flood account- tempered with mercy to Noah and family, and the destruction of the cities of the plain- with mercy to Lot and family. In both instances, God gave clear indication of how he felt: In Genesis 6:5-13 there is the best overall description anywhere in the Bible of why God should vaporize the world every morning before breakfast. In Genesis 13:13, and 18:20-21, Yahweh states that these cities are very wicked, but he is checking them out personally. A cool verse: Genesis 18:21 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether (i.e. really deserve ) according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” The homosexual gang rape attempted in Genesis 19 is the proof of that these cities deserve and will receive judgment. That’s how we know that the place is rotten. For the rest of the OT, particularly in the prophets, S&G become a shorthand way to point out the localized judgment in God in history on particularly deserving targets. Homosexuality isn’t directly mentioned again. In fact, in one verse other things are mentioned: Ezekiel 16:49-50 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. But again, what is the peak of their depravity? An ABOMINATION done before me. So Mr. Perry could cross reference Leviticus 18:22 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. That word is not used of inhospitality or greed. To know why, read Romans 1 and learn why homosxual behavior is the primary and final evidence of the idolatrous depravity of the human race in turning away from their creator. Not worse, just more evidentiary ;-)

I do not see how anyone can get past this. S&G were depraved violent cities deserving judgment, no doubt for many reasons. Homosexual gang rape is the most obvious proof. It’s a Biblical slam dunk and Perry must torture the Bible to avoid it. Homosexuality isn’t held up as worse than my sins, but in the case of S&G it is the most obviously shocking evidence of depravity. (IMO Lot shows he is just as bad, offering his daughters to the mob.)

I wonder if this guy’s hand ever gets tired.

Re: MCC approved bible. It’s interesting to note that what makes this bible particularly palatable to the MCC is not the actual text but rather the notes that come with the text (what will they do? Preach from the notes?) It’s amazing what you can make the Bible say when you print your own stuff right on the page! Of course we good evangelicals would never do this… Would we? (And why does the clerk at the Christian bookstore look at me funny when I request a plain Bible rather than the Anointed 12-Steps Mountain-Climber’s Study Bible?)

On a related topic: It has always seemed to me that Genesis 19 (the Sodom and Gomorrah story) is not a good proof-text to use in any debate about homosexuality.

That the men of Sodom were intending to have homosexual relations with Lot’s guests is clear. What is not so clear is wether the Lord judged and punished what they intended to do because of their homosexuality or because what they intended was rape. After all, is homosexual gang rape really more worthy of judgement than heterosexual gang rape? Would their actions have been any less blameworthy if they had taken ‘advantage’ of Lot’s insane offer that they rape his daughters instead? Surely not! For this reason I do not think that the story of Sodom is a particularly conclusive text regarding God’s attitude to homosexuality. It is much more useful as an indication of God’s attitude to rape, which is wicked in both it’s homo and heterosexual versions.

“Just imagine the uproar had it turned out that Muhammad and Malvo were members of the Michigan Militia!”- New York Post

An excellent piece on the duty of Mainstream Islam to denounce the radicals. This needs to be said over and over, for the benefit of Muslims and non-Muslims.

Here is a Law Professor that says U.S. Legal tradition owes little to the Bible. JACK: What do you think?

Good piece at the CT weblog on the Sniper’s weird religous clues. Muslim New Age Pagan Catholic? JACKH: Look down the page for a ton of stuff on the Ten Commandments.

Hershel Shanks (editor of BAR) on that plain stone box. Excellent.

I largely agree with this assessment of Mercer and Curry. A lot of zeal, but not much method.

A great review in NRO of my current favorite rockers, Lifehouse. Hight recommended.

Looks like we pretty much killed the place off with yesterdays mega-debate. Well, I don’t blame you. I’m sick of reading my own posts! This gives someone the oportunity to sweep up all the non-alcoholic beer bottles thrown in here yesterday. (BTW- IS THERE a decent non-alcoholic beer?)

A shame about Paul Wellstone and family. The guy was a fighting liberal, not a meally mouthed one. No embarassment about being a near-socialist. This will probably sew up a Democrat win in Minnesota. Of course, Jesse the Body could appoint himself!

A prideful Daddy submits these image for your approval…



He’s the one in the middle.



His is the small helmet in the midst of the rest of the white ones. I’m the guy all the way to the left (that’s not something you will ever hear Angus say twice!).

Things get pretty quite around here when Blogger gets hacked.

I guess the lesson we should learn from the sniper case is once a conclusion is jumped to, it is hard to stop the false assumption from growing. You have a gentleman who shot through holes in the trunk of a vehicle, but they were looking for a white van. Once the white van story was out, it was hard to change the momentum, which may be why more are dead.

Michael: When the Internet was still a pup in the late 80s (not really, as ARPANET started in 1969 … but there was no WWW), debate on boards was expected to be civil, and those who were uncivil or without a point were quickly flamed. Most gave up and went away. I find the same attitude amongst the many whether you are debating God, or why pop tarts with frosting cost the same as pop tarts without. The norm in a group is something like this:

1. Inane attacking post
   
2. Well thought out answer
   
3. “Taht’s becuse u r an @$$hole!!!”—can also substitute racist, homophobe, et al
   

Sometimes there are posts in between, but the modern media has taught us that using political correct epithets elevates our argument. If Jesse has a problem with a white guy, he is automatically a racist. If you disagree with a homosexual, you are a homophobe. Clinton exacerbated this with his lack of ability to conjugate and define “to be”. Since then, words have the meaning we apply to them, and if you disagree (state that words have well defined meanings in a book called Websters, for example), you are labeled.

The rhetoric from many is absolutely deplorable. How one can state that electing a president is equivalent to a terrorist attack on the world trade center or that a tax break for all Americans is a shifting of tax from the poor (most of whom DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT Mz. Streisand) to the rich (who actually paid an increased percent of the taxes under the Reagan plan which dropped the top rate) is astonishing. And, yet, the press eats it up. If Babs stated that going to war with Afghanistan would cause the moon to fly into earth, killing all of mankind, no one would even question the fact that she has no business speaking about astronomy, they would instead spin off onto something a skosh more plausible to demonize the president. Take Cynthia McKenney. While the masses distanced themselves from her, quietly they were backslapping her idea and waiting from a time they could respin it in other words. Fortunately, it fell flat. The question, however, should be why it ever gained credibility at all.

I guess the point is it is common for people of a certain belief system to demonize the opposite belief system. If we truly follow ours (Christianity), we have to be far more respectful (even of those not deserving it). The opposition (or at least a large percentage of the opposition) does not play by the rules of respect, even when they are shown respect. And, when they feel they are in the majority, they turn around waiting for a high five when they publish an unsubstantiated attack or a string of epithets. Walter (the poster) was actually kind, in comparison to many who post in groups these days, so I guess I should consider myself lucky.

I will remember the “why is your language meaningful” point. In this thread, I doubt it will be seen as anything other than attack. At least it is not an evolution group, where you can shut down any debate over how a sliver of bone can be proven to be a missing link in the evolutionary chain with a “Of course you won’t believe it, you are a Christian.” followed by dozens of Christians are unwilling to accept the truth posts. The general consensus being that it is a debate as long as only the choir show up to pat each other on the back.

Gregory: Perhaps your poster might explain why you should take HIS language as meaningful. Perhaps HIS language is metaphorical. Perhaps the definitions of HIS words in the dictionaries are just subjective meaningless judgments. Why do skeptical post-moderns want to debate anyone about anything, since they will finally say the subject and the discussion are meaningless exercises in mumbling?

JimN: I agree with you…and with what I wrote ;) Of course, Luther is saying that sin is always no matter what the act- in essence an outrage before a Holy God. It is intrinisic to this world and so much a part of me that I could never inventory it sufficiently as separate acts to even begin the process of repentance on my own. It saturates my acts and my motives and my religion and even my attempts at righteousness. I do beleive, however, that Luther’s choice of examples is hyperpolic in the sense of being calculated to grab my attention. Grace isn’t outweighed by a thousand murders or fornications. What I am saying is that Luther’s choice of that illustration sounds antinomian on purpose. The Reformers did a great job with justification, but sometimes the other aspects of salvation that surround the grace of God in justification were neglected. There is the grace of justification, and the grace of repentance, and the grace of sanctification and the grace of perseverance- all of which are part of what comes to me in the Grace of salvation. Luther’s comment, meant to emphasize grace in justification, seems to say that a person may be still a fornicator and a murderer and still justified. In a description of justification, that is true. In a description of how grace actually works, there is more to it than that, hence the following verse:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous(1 )will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,(2) 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Note that he puts regeneration, sanctification and justification together. Of course, here he is not trying for a magnificient illustration of grace, as in the quote cited.

MichaelS, re Luther’s No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. , to which you commented “... but the choice of that hyperbolic statement obscures the truth of repentance and perseverance as continuing parts of that grace.” I don’t think Luther’s point is not hyperbolic at all. Rather, he’s trying to bring “Who can separate us from the love of God?” together with Matthew 5. What Luther is saying is this: even though sin is intrinsic to this world, grace is sufficient. The point is not that we should be free to commit various sins, but that we in fact do commit them a multitude of times each day, “in our hearts.” And I think you’ll also agree, won’t you, that it’s not specific acts of repentance and perseverance, but rather the attitude and commitment to such that’s important? I’m just asking to clarify.That sin is intrinsic to everything on earth, and not a matter of simple bad behavior has been a constant theme in my spiritual walk.

Wanted to share one more thing. I had a “debate” with someone on the Biblical Archaeological Review site in a thread called “Is Jesus Satan?”. In the diatribe, he liken the two versions of the census as proof that God was Satan, ignoring the context; then used the morning light of Lucifer (Hebrew) to the morning light of Jesus (Greek) as equals. My statement was the original languages must be consulted before comparing Greek to Hebrew and passages must be looked at in context (David begins the Census in 2 Samuel 23 in a boastful way, which is never accounted for in 1 Chronicles 21). Here is his answer to my post:

---

Please, at least consult the original languages before attemtping a textual critique [missing question mark]

What’s the point in consulting the original language when “experts” disagree amongst themselves as to what the “original language” means, thus the differing translations ? Then again, perhaps all this biblical verbage is merely “metaphor” ?

---

I read down through some of the posts, and find it very hard to seriously consider the new bible that wipes away homosexuality. In context, the idea that inhospitality was Sodom’s problem breaks down when Lot offers his daughters instead. In trying to explain it away in Jude, their explanation creates conflict in the uniformity of their own bible, as it is inhospitality in Genesis, but sex with angels in Jude. With the more prevalent view, that each are talking about homosexuality, there is no conflict. The 1 Corinthians passage is potentially possible, but only if you ignore the root words that are combined to make up the word they translate as prostitution. Romans can, perhaps, be taken in this larger context, but I find it a stretch.

The last comment “The Leviticus passage is the least clear—though it is set in the larger context of differentiating the Children of Israel from the hostile nations that surrounded them.” is partially true. The law did set the Jews apart from other nations. But, I find it hard to reconcile the fact that the punishment was death and that this particular exclusion was simply to set Israel apart. The items that warranted death were normally considered far more serious than other sins.

None of us are perfect. And, each of us probably has some bible verse that we wish were striken from the bible … at least at one point in time or another. But, if we are honest, we do not attempt to explain it away.

Bart: Most things are certainly black and white, but there are certain New Testament items that are not so cut and dried. While Paul tells us we can eat or drink what we want, he also exhorts us to avoid offending our brother by our choices. Even if that man is a judgemental freak, you should avoid engaging in activities that will make him stumble … while he is around. Much like our society, what you decide to do in your own house is your own business, provided it is not illegal. Yes, we should spend more time on our own walks, but we do have a certain amount of responsibility to the health of the body. Just be glad neither of us is a pastor (sorry Michael); they are more accountable. ;->

As for my own experience, I have even gone so far as to ask a Hindu if it offended him if I ordered a steak. Now, from a Real Christian® standpoint, he is not a Christian, so who gives a damn, right? But, I take the lessons Jesus gave as to who is my neighbor seriously. If I were in the presence of someone I knew would be offended by my having only one glass of wine, I would not drink in front of him. I would drink in the parking lot before hand and have some good breath mints, because his teetotler attitude would drive me to drink otherwise. (The last sentence is a joke, by the way).

Ronald: I agree with you on this one. The covenents are an agreement that is made between the members. No one is forced to join a particular church body. As long as the focus of the pastor and congregation is on God and the Holy scripture, I see nothing wrong with additional caveats that they agree on, as a person who disagrees can always find another congregation that fulfills his needs (hopefully also focused on God and the Holy scriptures).

As for beer in the church, I have only carried a beer into a church once, as a prop to talk about both situational sin and the concept of a stumbling block. I would not bring a keg to a church function, as I consider it a faux pas on many levels. I worry less about what people might think about me, and more of how it might hurt others.

Michael: I believe the concept of ticking off a vegetarian, spotted owl saving, tree hugger actually earns you points in heaven, esp. if it involves the new Domino’s buffalo chicken kickers.

RonH: I think we’ve given this one a good outing. Enjoyable exchange. We certainly have different views on how the Bible translates into what the church works with in its life, message and ministry. We differ on the role of the theological enterprise. But that probably has a lot to do with our own respective journeys and what we have seen. Read my stuff and you know where I’ve been. I also have a more positive assessment of the Reformation as an event, and as an on-going movement of the Spirit calling the church back to Christ and the Bible.

I hope the example of the covenant at Ronald’s church has not gotten too personal. I think this started with mention of the razormouth article, then Ron cited his church covenant and his views on it and that intersected with my confessionalism stuff and wwwwwhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee that was fun! But I like everyone. Well, I don’t like the thought of Rigney doing something gross in the fellowship hall, but other than that….

For the record, I am probably less a slicer and dicer in the day to day than I am in print. I have had to accomodate all my life. I would LOVE to start the perfect church…but then I couldn’t join.

I have no interest in entering the debate over confessions, however, I would like to answer a question that Ron just mentioned. “After all, who writes the confessions?” I’d like to use the Apostle’s Creed as an example since, in my background, when we get to the part in the service when we say together the Apostle’s Creed it is called a “Confession of Faith.” No one person sat down and wrote out the Apostle’s Creed. It was developed within a community and by the consensus of that community. It’s not and “as I teach it” kind of thing. Any confession written by just one person for use by many is highly suspect and I would cast it out. My desire for a church that is confessional (every church is confessional whether stated or not; they all confess something) comes from a desire to be a part of a body that has a developed biblical theology that is expressed through a confession. At least with confessions I know where a church stands and what I can expect from a given body. I tend to stick with confessions that transcend denominations and schisms (like the ancient creeds) but I do understand the need for the WCF, the 39 articles of religion and others.

As such, stating that this covenent is heretical and the sign that these people are hypocritical liars is a bit judgemental. For the record, this has never been my position or my contention in this discussion.

A PCUSA church receives members by a credible profession of faith before the session and, if necessary, baptism by the mode chosen by the candidate. If you are implying that catechism is required, you are talking about the confirmation of baptized children. Baptized children are received as full members when the session discerns in them a credible profession of faith. Catechetical instruction is not required by the constitution. There are no non-biblical requirements.

I am a Southern baptist by conviction, but I also believe in the Biblical concept of the covenant family. I do not believe we are to treat our children as the unconverted but to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I do not believe the Bible teaches infant baptism, but like the Wilsonites, I could in Biblical conscience fellowship in a local body with those who do. Like Spurgeon, I can fully fellowship with those who baptize infants if we hold all else in common. (Spurgeon employed a number of paedo-baptists in his various ministries.) In our church, if a child is baptized, a real PCUSA minister does it, not me. I am just the stated supply. (interim)

In case you are wondering why I am in a Presby church, the answer is simple. The choice