A Funny Little Story About Hymns and Praise Songs

An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was.
“Well,” said the farmer. “It was good. They did something different, however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns.”
“Praise choruses?” asked the wife. “What are those?”
“Oh, they’re okay. They’re sort of like hymns, only different,” said the farmer.
“Well, what’s the difference?” asked the wife.
The farmer said, “Well it’s like this … If I were to say to you, ‘Martha, the cows are in the corn,’ well that would be a hymn. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you, ‘Martha, Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, MARTHA, MARTHA, the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows, the white cows, the black and white cows, the COWS, COWS, COWS are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn, in the CORN, CORN, CORN, COOOOORRRRRNNNNN,’ then, if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well that would be a praise chorus.”

As luck would have it, the exact same Sunday a young, new Christian from the city church attended the small town church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was.
“Well,” said the young man, “It was good. They did something different, however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs.”
“Hymns?” asked the wife. “What are those?”
“They’re okay. They’re sort of like regular songs, only different,” said the young man.
“Well, what’s the difference?” asked the wife.
The young man said, “Well it’s like this … If I were to say to you, ‘Martha, the cows are in the corn,’ well that would be a regular song. If on the other hand, I were to say to you,

Oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry
Inclinest thine ear to the words of my mouth.
Turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by
To the righteous, glorious truth.

For the way of the animals who can explain
There in their heads is no shadow of sense,
Hearkenest they in God’s sun or his rain
Unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.

Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight,
Have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed.
Then goaded by minions of darkness and night
They all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn chewed.

So look to that bright shining day by and by,
Where all foul corruptions of earth are reborn
Where no vicious animal makes my soul cry
And I no longer see those foul cows in the corn,

then, if I were to do only verses one, three and four, and change keys on the last verse, well that would be a hymn.”

Segway: Our entire village- counting the campus- is 5 blocks X 3 blocks. I would ride one in a second. Eating pizza while I buzzed by you people. Put your money in the jar. I think its way cool.

Bart has given evidence that he has experienced real revival at LBC.

Just got back from watching both my kids in Little Women. My daughter has almost 300 lines as Jo March. She was just marvelous. Wow was all I could say. To think that this is my kid is humbling. She has drive and commitment to any job she takes on that amazes me and it will reward her in life. If you want to ask God for a miracle, we are nominating her as a Toyota Community Scholar. If she gets it- and she is right down the pipe of what they want- it will change her life. I’ll keep you posted. It is odd. There were no college grads in my family, My dad dropped out at the 8th grade. His dad was a mountaineer and all the people before him. The originals were Welsh farmers trading mules for land in Va and Ky. Now here I am with college and seminary, back in the mountains less than an hour from where my grandfather is buried. My daughter is headed (God willing) for Centre College and a life of fulfilling her dreams. My son is dreaming of EKU and law enforcement. God is good generation after generation. But more than all that, she is a Christian girl who wants to teach English to poor kids out west, and he is a great Christian kid with musical gifts and great people skills. I won’t be surprised if she is teaching English here five years from now. We love both our kids, but this is Noel’s year and we are just happy every day to see her use her gifts and opportunities as she has.

Weird classes today. Lectured on relating to other religions, and pluralism, tolerance, etc. At the end of class, a new kid shouts out, “I think we ought to take all the f______ts out, line ‘em up and shoot ‘em.” This class looked at me because they know how I feel about that kind of language. So many Christians thing its acceptable to talk like that. I straightened him out and he was amazed. What was the problem? They’re F______ts. Let’s shoot ‘em. Matthew Shepherd II.

Then, next hour, this kid who is flunking almost all of his classes decides my class is the class to vent about it. So I let him, and try to encourage him to not give up. Well, he starts saying he’s going to “hurt” the next person who says anything to him about his grades. Being a teacher is such a vulnerable profession. You are in a position to do a lot of good, but sometimes the price of seeing what is really happening with kids and their violent world is discouraging. Of course, in each class there were all those other students who aren’t like that at all, but one threatening like that is tough, at least for me.

I have been working ALL DAY LONG and still have work to do. My father in law arrives tommorow, and has announced he is bringing the Hebrews 6 and 10 Bible studies he has written with him. (Inspired my watching my writhe last visit home.) He will read them to us over dinner ;-) I will be doing dishes. Many times over, trying to resist asking if anyone believes that everyone ever addressed in the Bible AS a believer, proved out to BE a believer? Or is it possible that some of those folks at Sinai (and in Hebrews) were in the OUTWARD covenant, but were going to be apostates in the near future? Or maybe I will just do dishes.

Then Friday my psuedo in-laws (the boyfriend’s parents) are coming. No theology yet. Just cool people. We will discuss a brideprice.

I will emerge when I emerge.

Ron H: I had actually seen it before and figured it was off of snopes, but I still enjoyed the story (true or not), as it is quite hilarious.

Bart: Don’t want to spend $5K on a Segway, then you can buy it for $6895 on EBay. Yes, the sharks are out in the water again and the stupid are not safe.

Matthew: I would say to Jeffords: “I have two words, and the second one is ‘you’!”

What an idiot. Michael, you should link your article about Jeffords on the BHT. I would, but the thought of using the Segway has rendered me completely lazy.

I agree with Bart. The last thing I need it something that is going to make me fatter and lazier.

C’mon, that segway thing is the climax of what it means to be lazy. please. Yeah, I’ll spend 5 grand on a “SCOOTER”...NOT!

Looking for that perfect Christmas gift? Only problem is it will not ship until 2003.

Bart: If you have to complain, do it here. It is really tacky to go to an outside media to complain about little excrement.

Nice one:
After stopping for drinks at an illegal bar, a Zimbabwean bus driver found
that the 20 mental patients he was supposed to be transporting from Harare
to Bulawayo had escaped. Not wanting to admit his incompetence, the driver
went to a nearby bus-stop and offered everyone waiting there a free ride. He
then delivered the passengers to the mental Hospital, telling the staff that
the patients were very excitable and prone to bizarre fantasies. The
deception wasn’t discovered for 3 days.

Hello all. I am wanting to get a tape ministry off the ground in my church. Any advice for a small church? What equipment to buy? How best to record messages until we get a PA system (which won’t be, of course, until we get our own building)? Anybody out there had experience with a fledgling church’s tape ministry? Any advice would be nice.

Today’s wisdom from the font of intellegence that is Leonardo DiCaprio: “I think ultimately success is good. Failure not so good.”

You have all been enlightened. Now send me money.

Create your own complaint letters…

keep hitting the link, the letter is different each time.

“The Boar’s Head Tavern wants nothing less than to practice human sacrifice on a grand scale in some sort of hopeless death cult, hence its repeated, almost hypnotic, insistence on the importance of its improvident excuses.”

This is my new life verse.

and this…What’s up here?

found this on the net…

From the blog at Relevant: “Christian rock group The Elms have pulled out of a performance scene in the upcoming Michael Stipe-produced dark comedy Saved. Apparently the group’s record label found the story too hot to handle, as did a half-dozen other acts. The indie movie, which stars Mandy Moore and Macaulay Culkin, is the story of a teen girl who finds herself pregnant and experiences Christian peer pressure, becoming an outcast at her Baptist high school. Stipe said the film was “like those monster vampire high school kind of movies, only here the monsters are Jesus-freak teenagers” ... “

Gee, who will play me? BTW, anyone else really really tired of whatever Michael Stipe is doing with his career. Michael- attend services at Landover. And be sure an tell them who you are.

PFR are the most moderate and restrained of the conservative groups in the PCUSA. Their comments about the contiunuing rebellion against the constitution of the PCUSA are a sign that things are getting very very bad.

Canada vs. Schwambach.

This actually happened to our current farm manager years ago, but he survived to tell the tale. What a way to go.

Bart must pay a visit to Landover Baptist for introducing this mind taffy. And he must do it sober.

I bitterly resent all you people without children spending money on yourselves. Send your money to my kids so I can have Christmas.

My son was Denmark, Koala, Apricots.

RonH: I also grew up in Dispensationalism, was given a Scofield when I started preaching, plus several volumes of Larkin chart books. I took a Scofield couse from MBI and preached this stuff until I bumped into non-Dispys in college. I appreciate what you are saying about the response to liberalism, and I agree. That was the spirit in which it was taught. However, I cannot say this was a theology of hope and mission apart from a number of other things, particularly fear, pessimism and extreme suspicion of other Christians. At times, almost cultic isolation of “True” Christians (us) from apostates about to become tools of the ant-christ (them.) I know this was not entirely the result of dispensational doctrine, but it was not entirely separate from it either. I can look at it with understanding, and humor, and regret. It is a big tent, with something different going on in all three rings of the circus.

Anyone know where I can find a short, but fairly comprehensive intro to what Roman Catholics believe?

I guess this is the BHT 2% club!

Dominican Republic, Crab, and Banana.

Dang… I hate being proven wrong…

Bart: Djibouti, Iguana and Apple.

Hi gang. I dig the discussion on dispensationalism. Sorry I haven’t posted lately but I’ve been in a training class all week. My take:

Dispensationalism tends to breed fatalism. Dispys look at increasing lawlessness and chaos and say, “Good, it’s God’s plan for it all to get worse – the Rapture must be close.” I cannot make that attitude square with the fundamental hope I see in the scripture. God apparently thinks so much of His creation that He promises “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea”. The creation is groaning, eagerly awaiting its own redemption and the revealing of the sons of God. I’m personally looking forward to eternal life on a redeemed earth. Dispys apparently eagerly await the destruction of earth. Freaky.

I got the Episode II DVD today at Wal-Mart for $10.00. They are having a one day sale on the DVDs which makes it an almost 50% discount. Everyone run to your local Wal-Mart and get it! (Provided you have a local Wal-Mart).

Has anyone begun to read “A Christmas Carol” yet this year?

The trick is that if you multiply any number by nine, the resulting number’s digits are divisible by nine, and add up to 9 (18, 27, 36, 45, 54, 63, 72, 81, 90). Since you’re only using numbers 1-10, you’re going to end up with 9. Subtract 5 and you get 4. There’s only one significant country that begins with a “D” (Denmark) in the English language (ahem…), animals that begin with a “K” (I doubt most people would think of Kiwi birds), or fruits that begin with an “O”...

In other news, Michael Jackson has officially changed his middle name to “Wacko”.

2% or 98%
This is strange…can you figure it out?
Are you the 2% or 98% of the population?
Follow the instructions! NO PEEKING AHEAD!
* Do the following exercise, guaranteed to raise an eyebrow.
* There’s no trick or surprise.
* Just follow these instructions, and answer the questions one at a time
and as quickly as you can!
* Again, as quickly as you can but don’t advance until you’ve done each
of them … really.
* Now, scroll down (but not too fast, you might miss something).

Think of a number from 1 to 10

Multiply that number by 9

If the number is a 2-digit number, add the digits together

Now subtract 5

Determine which letter in the alphabet corresponds to the number you
ended up with (example: 1=a, 2=b, 3=c,etc.)

Think of a country that starts with that letter

Remember the last letter of the name of that country

Think of the name of an animal that starts with that letter

Remember the last letter in the name of that animal.

Think of the name of a fruit that starts with that letter

Are you thinking of a Kangaroo in Denmark eating an Orange?

I told you this was FREAKY!! If not, you’re among the 2% of
the population whose minds are different enough to think of something
else. 98% of people will answer with kangaroos
in Denmark when given this exercise.

Freaky, huh?

My number was 8, which gave me 72, then 9, then 4, the letter d,country was Deutschland, The animal was dog, and the fruit was GARCINIA DULCIS. I’m in the two percent.

Rigney, if I had gotten the chance to speak last night in my cross-cultural leadership class last night, I think you would have been proud of me. We watched a film titled “The Color of Fear” and afterwards, in a class discussion of the film, someone asked why one of the black men in the film was so mad. I was ready to throw in an analysis of Rider from Go Down, Moses, but never got the chance to speak.

Thanks for linking to the knuckleheads from western KY, Michael. I had a moment of fright for what might have been when I heard their simple ruse to get that guy out of his house in Hanson (right up the road from me): I would have opened the door for “stranded motorists” in a heartbeat. Scary. I mean, I wouldn’t have thought twice about it. Now, I’m determined to offer (through the door) to call AAA or the police to help someone having trouble, or I will slide the phone out for them, but I won’t open the door and give them a ride or let them in. Nice world. Reminds me of when I had to tell my daughter NOT to help anyone who has lost their dog. Nice.

I put the good articles on the sidebar so they will be available for a while.

Jake: Let me give you and our readers a prime example of dispensational problems. According to them, the distinction between Israel and the church MUST be maintained and all other hermeneutical considerations please be seated on the back row. Enter my favorite passage as a test case: Revelation 7. Please read.

Dispys say these are 144,000 Jewish evangelists in the tribulation. Wrong. Look at chapter 6. The fourhorsemen. Trouble throughout history. Conquest. War. Famine. Just like Jesus said in Mark 13. Then, the souls of martyrs under the altar. IOW, persecution and death for Christ. Just like Mark 13. Then chapter 7. Two visions. One of 144,000 in twelve tribes, in battle formation: The church militant on earth- sealed (Eph 1), numbered, protected. Nothing can happen to them that isn’t in God’s plan. And then a second vision of the church triumphant, all gathered in heaven, a great unnumbered congregation in worship. Doesn’t turning that 144,000 into Jewish Billy Grahams spoil a simple- but powerful- picture of the present and future realities for the church? Also, please compare the tribes with the real tribes. There IS no tribe of Joseph. And Dan is missing, likely because of idolatry. IOW, it’s not a LITERAL list. It’s symbolic of a pure and perfect Israel, i.e. the church as God sees it. 144,000 in the number code of Revelation is the perfect number of God’s OT and NT people. 12×12 x 1,000.

BUT THEN these 144,000 reappear. Revelation 14. Now we find out they are all MALE and all VIRGINS. (Sorry ladies.) The Dispys REMAIN LITERAL with this interpretation, when obviously this is symbolic of those who have not worshipped other gods, often pictured as sexual purity in the OT. The dispy who holds on to a literal Jewish 144,000 here misses a wonderful message, and must go to, IMO, ridiculous lengths to keep the church and Israel separate in Revelation. ANd their contention that they are being “literal” is fine. Problem is, literal is often wrong, like here. A literal reading of Revelation is a disaster.

Judson: I am still working on that difference as well. I find New Covenant theologians very reluctant to put their view into a comprehensive, comparative or comprehensible statement. They keep saying they are superior, but I can’t seem to find why other than their approach to the Sabbath. No infant baptizers among the NCT, least that I can find. The best recommendation I have for them is D.A. Carson, who has never preached a word I couldn’t Amen, so maybe I am one and don’t know it. ;-)

JimN: I had figured out this must have been your story, or something like it. I have been in a hundred conversations with good and loving Christian friends who simply grinned and said “It all goes back to Esau. They’re cursed. That’s it.” As someone once said, A Marriage Made in Hell. I totally support your choice in regard to your kids. I left invitationalism for the same reason. The move has taken with my daughter completly. She will never go back, but my son is still in the oven on these sorts of things. He’s not as emotional about issues as myself or his sister, so he can put up with things with a sense of humor. In the church I grew up in, there were no non-European people, so you could say what you wanted. Did anyone come to talk with you afterwards? Surely there must have been an awareness that such shorthand theology told your family they were cursed by way of DNA? Gee, the church in Antioch needed to know this didn’t they?

Group: Anyone have a favorite James Coburn movie? I would trace my own adolescent sexual awakening to the “Flint” movies. Ahhhh, memories. A very cool guy.

My guys have scored one. I am on a variation, but I’m glad to see this confirmed, since I have seen it in the real world fifty times already.

Dumb and Dumber II is being filmed using local talent.

Ron H: Isn’t surround cool? I just got a DVD setup with dolby 5.1 last year, and it’s fun. We actually seldom watch movies, but when we do! The first LoTR disc was awesome- can’t wait to get ashore and grab the new set. And see the second movie!

Thanks everyone, this is all very informative. Personally I’ve been more interested in the difference between Covenant and New Covenant theologies. The articles Michael mentioned are good. I still have a lot to learn about them all.

Jake, you are about to get more about dispensationalism that I usually can put out. Normally, I have to be restrained and medicated, but I’m feeling, well, I don’t know how I’m feeling… maybe belligerent? I’ve been playing Delta Force – Land Warrior all night, and my testosterone is up. I’ll try to be nice.

In dispensationalism, the distinction between Israel and the Church becomes the cornerstone of hermenutics. All of scripture becomes subjected to this hermenutical point. Passages that support the distinction receive emphasis, while those (see MichaelS’s list) that stress the unity of the people of God are reinterpreted, downplayed, or even outright ignored (I never heard a sermon on Hebrews until I was 17, and had left my father’s Baptist (dispensational) church to go to an Orthodox Presbyterian (alas, this was no theological awakening; there was a girl I was interested in…) But the better theological minds here have already stated the theological (again, Michael et al) and philosophical (RonH) objections. I’ll fall back on the tactic that RonH hints at, which I learned from Francis Shaeffer: if you want to know whether an idea is true, see if you can live by it. In this case, the dispensational hermenutic simply faills to corealate the whole scripture. And since parts of the Bible just don’t make any sense to dispensationalists, they just… well, they just rail about how God is on the side of the Israelis, and how we need to blow up the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the temple, and how all Arabs are under God’s curse going back to Esau, and, well, now you know why I hate this topic so much.

I left a church where I was a deacon and a praise team member, where my wife ran the MOPS ministry and taught Sunday School and Junior church, where the pastor was a longtime friend (Linda and I had met because of him), and where we had fellowshipped for 12 years even though they knew we weren’t dispensational. After Septermber 11th, we saw and heard what dispensational theology had to say to the issue (that the Arabs are cursed, the Israelis are blessed, and which side are you on?) and then, hurt and confused, happened to visit a reformed church in the area where a Jewish man was leading the congregation in intercessory prayer for the safety of Arabs in the community, and we knew we had to leave. Even though nothing was said directly against us, and the board and pastor went to great lengths to assure us there was nothing personal, we had to ask ourselves how we could in good conscience remain under teaching that we disagreed with; it was especially painful because my daughters are old enough to pick up on these things – how do you explain to an eight-year-old that when they say Arabs are cursed, that doesn’t mean her, even though she’s half Syrian?

Ideas have consequences. And (from my experience and in my opinion) dispensationalism is a profoundly bad idea, with profoundly bad consequences. Take the time to review the excellent stuff linked to and presented here, and work through it. If you can do that, and remain dispensational, then by all means may God bless you.

Some recent gems from ENG 101: “I want to live in the city, where there’s more convents.” And a favorite: “When a student sees a football layer…” And another good one: “Some day I hope to develop a cure for AIDS and put people out of their misery.”

The recent White Horse Inn program on Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Quite good.

Piper’s Views on the issue.

Articles on the issue from the New Covenant Theology perspective.

Must be a 150 articles hereat Monergism.com. Wow. Double wow. Scroll down to the Dispensational links. Great stuff.

More articles on Dispensational errors from Grace Online library. Lots of stuff here.

MatthewJ: The article on The Rapture Trap was a breath of fresh air. I get so tired of the Left Behind Assumption. The books look so neat. How can they not be true? I would be in favor of a selected rapture, if I could pick the people and where they were going.

RonH: Oh the things you get to do when you don’t have children. You can loan it to me when you get bored.

a 10-year-old girl who gave birth to his child

I’ve got the jumper cables… does anyone have a battery? How about a boulder or two.

He bowed his head, quoted Scripture and appeared to weep during a sentencing hearing in Bridgeport Superior Court.

“Every knee must bow, every tongue must confess,” a grizzled Kave said before learning his fate. “I confess my crime…I’m sorry.”

I continue to find it amazing that people like this think that the same court system that took prayer out of the classroom and made abortion a national medal of merit, would consider the Biblical pleadings of a convicted child molester as valid. Like the judge is going to go… “Hey – we know you impregnated a girl who still plays with Barbies, but you quoted Corinthians, so you can’t be all bad.”

Two Bridgeport pediatricians face charges of failing to report the child’s pregnancy to authorities. Kave’s case also prompted state officials to reassess the child abuse mandatory reporting laws, which doctors statewide claim conflict with medical ethics protecting patient confidentiality.

I find it so uplifting to know that at least 2 pediatricians considered their political position more important than the welfare of a child rape victim. Restores my faith in the medical community…

Kave’s attorney, Assistant Public Defender Miles Gerety, said Kave has spent much of his life in jail and quite possibly may die there. He said Kave had a “horrendously difficult life” growing up in the South “in a different age, in a different time.”

Awwww…..

But despite Kave’s prior record, he still deserves to be treated fairly, Gerety said.

“As much as we may despise the crime he has committed and admitted to, he is still entitled to decent medical care,” Gerety said, adding that it had taken weeks for Kave to retrieve his glasses after his arrest.

“A civilized society does lock people [up], sometimes for long periods of time,” Gerety said. “But Mr. Kave is a human being. He is one of God’s children. There has been enough demonizing of him.”

I think Mike’s right. Medical care isn’t going to do this guy much good once them cellblock B boys find out what he did.

Here’s a guy who is going to have a fine time in prison when the word gets out what he did. Sheesh.

Scriptures that have shaped my thinking on this subject:

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

This is right out of Exodus 19. Why apply the same language in both places? The best explanation is that the language applies to the reality. Remember, both the VISIBLE church and VISIBLE Israel are imperfect, disobedient peoples. The faithful of both are part of the same visible church.

Hebrews 11:39-40 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

This, of course, comes at the conclusion of Hebrews 11. The entire chapter seems to be saying that we are all one people, but that what they LOOKED FORWARD TO, we now know in Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Christians are related to the promise made to Abraham. They are the children of his faith, and are one family.

The Dispys seem overly involved with the law, but the law has ALWAYS served the same purpose- to bring us to Christ: Galatians 3:24 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Weren’t we all saved by grace through faith, so Abraham is the Father of us ALL: Romans 4:16 6 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring- not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Aren’t Gentiles brought into the family God now part of the Commonwealth of Israel? : Ephesians 2:12-14 2 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

And, I mean, gee, can it be any plainer than this- They were baptized into being the people belonging to Christ!

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 ESV 1 Corinthians 10:1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Jake: I will give an answer this evening. I am still working through crisis #5687. I would be careful with saying Israel is a foreshadowing or a type. Dispys wind up saying the Semon on the Mount is for Millenial Israel and that the Third temple will restore Levitical sacrifices. This starts getting a bit unwieldy. Moderate dispys are aware of this. WIll return with more.

On Kreeft: I tend to lean more in agreement with Kreeft here, although I confess to not knowing Piper’s stance on the issue. My reasoning is probably less scriptural and more observational, but heregoes:

Typical Fundy POV: God is justice. He hates sin, and has provided an out through Jesus, and Jesus only. Anyone who did not know Christ the moment after the (death, resurrection, ascention) will go to Hell, period.

- This view, while maintaining a good handle on the simple fact that liberals tend to gloss over – that God absolutely hates sin in all forms, is nonetheless lacking in its totality. It is an incomplete view of a complete God who is also merciful and who made the point of sending Christ to give us the opportunity. God is also not clueless. God is perfectly aware that the Gospel message would not reach all people, and I just don’t believe His Mercy would deny someone who worshipped God, but didn’t have an understanding of the finer points of the law or of grace.

Typical Liberal POV: God is mercy. He doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell, and people who have never heard of Jesus won’t go, since they didn’t have the chance to know Him and His saving grace.

- Again, like the previous POV, this is an incomplete view of a complete God. It ignores God’s justice. It also ignores the simple fact that the law, to some degree, was written on the hearts of those who don’t know the law. A basic understanding of humanity says that there are certain standards that are accepted (at their most basic) worldwide: the right to property; the right to family; and the right to life. Individual societies and people, however, can make the choice to take each of these rights, and build on them, or take away from them.

If I’m backwards and all turned around on this, let me know.

Jake, in my view, you’ve both summarized dispensational theology and answered your original question. The distinction between Israel and the church is the foundational error in dispensational thought. It is the premise that leads to all their other errors. I usually stay away from this one, because I’ve got a lot of baggage I’m working through, but I found Mathison helpful.

Here’s a good article on NRO about the end times craze. I love those people over there.

We went to the Titans-Steelers game yesterday. The Steeler’s QB was taken out in an ambulance. I’m no doctor, but when they slide the stretcher under you rather than roll you onto your back, something serious is wrong. He had a concussion and a spinal cord contusion. Yikes! Good game, though. I was frozen by the time we left..

A local Apostolic church with 1,500 members is preparing to build a brand new $26,000,000 worship center, complete with sanctuary, gym, pool, and theater.

I am absolutely without comment right now…

Mike: I’m sorry if I sounded like I didn’t like your article, or thought it overly harsh. In fact, I’m in complete agreement at this point, eagerly awaiting part 3.

Hippy Update: The Hippy has not returned to the board, but our local pagan anti-Christian idiot has. Anybody got a stick?

Who is telling Al he has a shot? Listen my Democrat friends, the era of Bill-Hillary and Algore is O-V-E-R. Find someone else.

Here is an article my students are reading today. It’s by the excellent apologist Peter Kreeft and deals with the Christian attitude towards comparative religions. A quote that I want to throw out for your learned comments:

12. “But isn’t God unjust to judge the whole world by Christian standards? ”

God judges justly. “All who sinned without [knowing] the [Mosaic] law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law” (ROM 2:12). Even pagans show “that what the law requires is written on their hearts” (ROM 2:15) if we honestly consult our hearts, we will find two truths: that we know what we ought to do and be, and that we fail to do and be that.

Fundamentalists, faithful to the clear one-way teaching of Christ, often conclude from this that pagans, Buddhists, et cetera, cannot be saved. Liberals, who emphasize God’s mercy, cannot bring themselves to believe that the mass of men are doomed to hell, and they ignore, deny, nuance, or water down Christ’s own claims to uniqueness. The Church has found a third way, implied in the New Testament texts. On the one hand, no one can be saved except through Christ. On the other hand, Christ is not only the incarnate Jewish man but also the eternal, pre-existent word of God, “which enlightens every man who comes into the world” (Jn 1:9). So Socrates was able to know Christ as word of God, as eternal Truth; and if the fundamental option of his deepest heart was to reach out to him as Truth, in faith and hope and love, however imperfectly known this Christ was to Socrates, Socrates could have been saved by Christ too. We are not saved by knowledge but by faith. Scripture nowhere says how explicit the intellectual content of faith has to be. But it does clearly say who the one Savior is.

The Second Vatican Council took a position on comparative religions that distinguished Catholicism from both Modernist relativism and Fundamentalist exclusivism. It taught that on the one hand there is much deep wisdom and value in other religions and that the Christian should respect them and learn from them. But, on the other hand, the claims of Christ and his Church can never be lessened, compromised, or relativized. We may add to our religious education by studying other religions but never subtract from it.

I toss this out because I agree with Kreeft and disagree with Piper (mostly) on this one, and always feel uncomfortably aware of any issue where I disagree with JP. My texts are of course Romans 1, and Acts 10. Your thoughts.

Listening to some church broadcast ads on cable tonight, I was amazed how how many said something like “be ushered into the presence of God” or “be ushered into the Holy of holies by our worship leader.” Sorry, but this is dangerous stuff. Not just sloppy, but dangerous. Anti-Christian. Arrogant. The cult of celebrity has no ceiling.

This will be a busy week for our kids. Both of them are in our school production of “Little Women.” It’s been Noel’s lifelong dream to play the part of Jo March, so we are really happy for her. The sorta in-laws and the real in-laws are coming. Too much pressure!!!

I am almost done with Douglas Wilson’s “Reformed is Not Enough.” I think I’m going to reread it, because so far I’m getting the point but I’m not seeing the amazing significance of it. Baptized persons are in the covenant. If they don’t believe, they are covenant breakers recieving curses not blessings. In the sacraments, all the blessings are offered to those in the covenant. Apostasy is a real sin. The covenant is objective, not subjective. I’m still waiting for the lightning bolt.

Sorry if this has already been posted- I couldn’t help it!

Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter

“The first testament says “an eye for an eye”.”
“The second testament says “love thy neighbor”.”
“The third testament—KICKS ASS!”

Charlie Krauthammer is always good, but is surely in rare form kicking poor ol’ Bill Moyers.

Let’s play with the words “Conservative” and “Catholic” for a moment

JackH: What are you hearing out there in great American West about the Roswell excavation?

My nose itches.

Any time I think I may have gone off the deep end, I go here and look around. Especially go down to the music section, where you will learn that the rock beat is evil in any form. (I hate to say it, but some of his stuff about the weird excesses in CCM are unfortunately true.)

Scott: Appreciated your invitation story. If the invitation were used sparingly, under the leadership of the Spirit rather than the dictates of the pragmatists, I could easily- and I do mean easily- be its friend. I guess living in a lab of abuse of the thing as I do, I have seen it at its worst. The article I posted on IM yesterday doesn’t mean to imply that any use is terrible. It is saying that using the invitation and saying it is scripturally advocated is simply mistaken. Next article will catalog what 150 years of invitationalism has brought us. Not by way of individual good uses, but by way of an overall pragmatic abuse.

JimN: Thanks for the further light. I read the first few paragraphs and thought this was an organization with some respectability. Apparently less than one might be inclined to think. My mistake. (It’s so hard being sinlessly perfect. I don’t know how I pulled it off all those years.)

MichaelS, something about Ministry Watch’s definition of “transparency” seems dicey to me. If your methods can’t distinguish between Benny Hinn and R.C. Sproul, or Crystal Cathedral and The Trinity Forum, how credible are you? Ministry Watch seems to come out of nowhere, with no real standing, and fire off broadside requests – which in most cases ministries are specifically protected from complying with – with the intention of deliberately causing a sensation. I would further venture to speculate that for those organizations on their list who are members of ECFA, a similar request that clearly indicated it was coming from ECFA would have seen response. I’m sorry, but “Obviously this is a red flag for donors and should be a central factor in whether a ministry is worthy of their hard-earned dollars” bothers me. Who the (insert pithy expletive here) is “Rusty Leonard,” that I should care what he says about where I send my money? And who’s funding Ministry Watch? I wish I could say that this was being done with good intentions, but I don’t believe it. Dig into Wall Watchers a bit and you’ll find that they admit that they were turned down for membership in ECFA. They are hounding for publicity. Now we’ve given it to them.

Hey John—I was in that Old KY Home group too, remember? It was fun.

Don’t make me go all Victor Wooten on you.

On Invitations: In my 5 years at Montreat (yes… 5… I changed my major several times after the 36 final average in Accounting led me to believe the Lord had not called me into the business world), I remember 1… maybe 2 altar calls. Until then, I had strongly believed in the preach-then-altarcall formula. Then, one Tuesday evening, my band performed a concert. After we played, a drama group from Emmanuel Bible College (Pentecostal Holiness school) performed a mime drama to music by Michael W. Smith, Believer, Alice Cooper, Steppenwolf, and Metallica. Afterward, our lead singer shared a gospel message and gave an invitation – here’s the kicker – because he felt like the Spirit had told him to. No “conversions”, but several opportunities for quality, personal ministry with people who needed.

All that to say, it’s amazing what happens when we’re obedient to God, rather than to a formula.

According to this rogue UMC Bishop, the orthodox view of Jesus is idolatry. MatthewJ, you would make an excellent bishop.

MinistryWatch may bear watching..

Saint Mickey is finally discovered. Walt, you copy cat.

TIME Mag has recently published a powerful pro-life piece. Hope you saw it. here is a review.

Homeschool University is now almost accredited.

Bart: You do not want me to post a pic that MatthewJ sent me that has kept me in a state of nausea all day. Uggh. Thanks for the comparison to Flea, but how ‘bout someone worth mentioning, like Ox?

JohnS: Thanks for the kind words. The BHT altar call is a little different. One day we’ll have to describe it. All I can say is that the invitation hymn is “The Girls All Get Prettier at Closin’ Time.”

In 1979, I hosted a GLAD concert. Their first album had just come out. It was both Nalle brothers and Bob Kauflin, a great guitar guy named Mark Baldwin, a drummer and all their families. We put them up at church and got to know them for a couple of days. We’ve been fans ever since, and took extra delight with their interest in Calvinism and support of many Reformed conferences. I reminded Don of this a couple of years ago and he didn’t remember. Just thought I was a jerk ;) But we do love and appreciate GLAD. As much as I like their Acapella stuff, I enjoy the band albums as much. The current one, “One Pure and Holy Passion” has one of their “Variations” numbers where they do a song in a bunch of vocal styles. Worth the price.

I received my new Steve Camp CD today and was surprised to see that his wife has left him….with five kids to raise. The brokenness is really evident in the songs. Prayin for Steve, who has been a prophet and a man with the spirit of Keith Green in a generation of musicians panting after a Dove award. Bob Bennett, another excellent songwriter, had a painful divorce that wrenched some wonderful art out of his soul.

Cold, cold, cold and rainy here. We had to cancel a weekend hayride. I have a student a very streetwise hip hopper- coming over to watch Amadeus. She is doing a report on Mozart and of course hates it. I can’t wait to show her the original bad boy of music.

In response to Mike S article on invitations:

I lead Friday Praise & Worship services on campus here at OBI. When I first took over, I was big on the invitation thing. I guess that was the old hard core “Southern Baptist” teaching in me. Brought on by years in church with my aunt. Not trying to be critical there. But as I have grown more in my faith under the teaching and watchful eye of my great mentor and pastor Mike Spencer, I have learned a whole different story. And way of dealing with this. I soon turned away from the “altar call” at the end of our services. And now each of the members of our group “Commit” go to the Lord in prayer before each service and ask for the Holy Spirit to do the work. To open the hearts and minds of these young men and women before us. That something we say, or sing, or do, cause them to look inside themselves and see that they need the saving power and grace of Jesus Christ. I think I have totally turned away from the emotionalism of the “altar call”. Here at Oneida, the altar call has become some sort of joke for our students. We have a few or I should say several, “regular” visitors to the altar. Week after week. Everytime there is a service where there is some type of a call to repent and turn to Christ, they “come a runnin”. This scares me now. Years ago I would have thought, “great! God is at work.” But I know better now. That is not to say that God is not at work in anyone who runs to the altar. I had two highschool students ask me if they had to go to the altar to get saved. I told them they would not find that in the Bible. That the call to repent and start a relationship with Jesus Christ was a spiritual act. A personal act, that one does to receive salvation and grace through Jesus Christ. But, not to be afraid of doing that and not sharing it with the world. I could go on and on about this. I just wanted to put my usual 2cents worth in on the article.

I prefer to listen to MS play bass. he does an awesome flea imitation and can play funk right up there with the parliament boys. I especially love it when he wears his glittery bell bottomed jumpsuit that exposes all of his chest hair.

Mike S and I sang in a male a cappella group once. Sang “My Old Kentucky Home” and it sounded great. And it was fun to. Just thought I would tell you all that. PEACE

Find more pictures of Golden and surroundings here. I am trying to make up for that picture of bumper-to-bumper traffic (Is the message on the traffic board for real?)

Ron H – The group Glad is an awesome male a cappella group. I listen to them often. My favorite is “A Might Fortress”. Just something about cruising down the road with that song blasting through the stereo makes for a good trip.

Here is a nice little web page about the little town where I live. I think I’ve bragged about this place here before but really I can’t help myself. I grew up in the concrete jungle of Montreal (a beautiful place in its own right) so this place is really a breath of fresh air. THE NEAREST MALL IS 3 HOURS AWAY!. We are remote but not that remote. And we love tourists so come on up and spend your valuable US dollars. (And our church also loves visitors!)

I will be away for a week teaching the book of Galatians at a small Bible College. I do this every other year. While the students are mostly arminian (but would be hard pressed to tell the difference – many of them are fresh out of High School) the principal is a Calvinist who knows his Bible like no one I’ve ever met. Give him a book and chapter and he’ll tell you the content. However, he won’t let me teach certain books because I’m not of the pre-trib persuasion. That’s OK. I’ll do the best I can with Galatians.

MJ:

you will get no argument from Angus, as he loves to listen while in the weight room.

Michael: I see the major issue with the Libertarian party being the lack of candidates who can get enough of the poll. Unfortunately, many sheeple vote the line, and see a vote for LIbertarian as a waste.

Megan: I really do take this board in good spirits. As for disagreeing, I think we are agreeing on many things, in principle. I believe I am just looking on the practical. I will give you an example: a collegue waxed loudly about why we need to raise the minimum wage. I showed that, historically, raising the minimum wage negatively impacts those who collect it at a much higher rate than when it is left alone. When I expressed that part of the reasoning stems from business raising prices more than what is necessary to compensate for higher wages (which would make raising the minimum wage a wash), and part of that was due to a culture that buys stock for increase in stock price, rather than dividends (the shift started in the 80s), he stated, “which is easier? change business? or change the minimum wage?” The argument that it would actually harm those whom it is aimed for was secondary to passing legislation that makes people feel good that they are “supporting” poor people.

Don’t worry. I am an equal opportunity skeptic. Rush Limbaugh recently heralded that the upper 50% of wage earners pay 96.09% of the tax. Now, to most conservatives, this is a banner ad for protest. The problem is the minimum wage necessary to get into the upper 50% is $26,000.00 (according to the IRS site where Rush pulled his figures). If you taxed these people at 100%, you could not bring the figure to 50-50, so the hysteria is unwarranted. The problem with stating facts like this is the conservative side in most boards see me as “liberal” as soon as I post this info.

The Democrats believe they have a solution to the problem of the poor, of course. They want to reduce payroll taxes. What are payroll taxes? FICA (Social Security), Medicare, et al. Sounds good, until you really think about it. Social Security was set up as a bank account, to supplement your retirement income. The more you put in, the more you take out. At least that is the way it was intended. Your income tax collections were designed to fund entitlement programs, not FICA. If we lower FICA for one segment, but allow them to take full advantage of it, we have blended FICA into Income tax, as far as usage goes. You can follow the same lines with Medicare. The ultimate question is “whose money is it?”

My server (yahoo!) appears to be down for the moment.

IM is updated with the second part of the Public Invitation series. This one is on scriptural arguments and pragmatism. I will copyright the phrase “Dictatorship of the Pragmatariat.” The last one will be on the corrupting impact. At the end of that article, there will be an invitation to walk forward and pray the prayer admitting that I am right. ;-) I am getting nice mail on the previous piece.

If you are on the blog or read the blog I would suggest you read the three IM pieces on worship. Just because I said so.

JimN: The Wilsonites write a lot of good stuff on music. I agree with them that we should teach our people to sing. The work necessary to teach a congregation to sing hymns is time and effort well spent. The entertainment mindset eventually drags us all down to the lowest common denominator. As Christians, we have an interest in seeing that people continue to know how to read, sing and think. I am all for devoting time to all three, cultural trends be damned.

On the Liberals in PCUSA: Obviously, they didn’t read the article I posted. Nakedness… it’s the answer. To what question, I have no idea:

The Libertarian Party: The Libertarian Party doesn’t make headway because of 2 main reasons: no sellable candidates (like Bush, Clinton, etc) and little $$$. How much ad time can they buy, really?

To post your muppet, click on the What Muppet are you quiz, and when you get your result, copy the text with all the ALTs and IMGs (that they tell you to use to post on your web page), and then past it in the blog. It should work.

	You are Scooter! You’re quiet, organized, and a bit put-upon. Though people don’t always pay attention to you, you try to keep a sunny attitude.
Take the What Muppet Are You? Quiz!

Last Sunday, Linda and I celelbrated our 12th anniversary, which I attribute to her virtue and God’s grace.

Folks, I’ve been busy this week. I still want to weigh in at length on the hymns vs. praise debate, but work has been pressing. Here’s some idea of my direction, however: The reason we don’t write hymns, and the reason we don’t sing them, is because the role of music in our lives generally is different today than it was when the great hymns were written If you go back to pre-WWII days, music operated very differently within western culture because of the technology involved. In 1880, if you wrote “number one with a bullet”, it meant that your sheet music was selling and people were gathering around the piano to sing it. Used to be far more participatory; when Bach wrote for German princes, he could reasonably expect that the audience had some musical training. Today, things are different. Music blares at us from all directions, but few of us actually participate in that music, beyond selecting it (and most don’t even do that.) We’re also so urbanized culturally that we tend toward music that is loud and fast – like the world we live in. Finally. we’re used to music operating on our emotions directly, because that’s what popular music does. Watch a TV show where popular songs are used – pick one at random – and notice that the actual subject and/or content of the song often has nothing to do with the scene that the song is playing under. All around us, music is bypassing our intellect and going right at our emotions.

So when people get to church, they bring this all with them. They have expectations that are formed by the culture. And we break out “and can it be” or “near the cross” or some other great gem, and it doesn’t work for them, because they aren’t expecting to have to interact intellectually with the worlds. They’re “hooked on a feeling.” In fact, this is what I think is really behind the whole “seeker-friendly” movement, and what’s wrong with public education, and a whole bunch of other things. Modern western people are used to having their emotions acted on directly, without having their intellects engaged. They’re uncomfortable with having to process too much.

That said, there are occasions when musicians can sneak one in. My personal favorite is Jars of Clay’s Hymn. Here’s the chorus:

Oh Gaze of Love,
so melt my pride
that I may in Your house but kneel,
and in my brokenness to cry,
spring worship unto Thee.

MichaelS, my blog is here.

Finally, to try yet again to get the last word on the long-dormant wine debate, I offer the wisdom of Dr. Franklin, that esteemed theologian (after all, he wrote some of the Bible’s best verses…)

The Antediluvians were all very sober,
For they had no wine, and they brewed no October;
All wicked, bad livers, on mischief still thinking,
For there can’t be good living where isn’t good drinking.

‘Twas honest old Noah first planted the vine,
And mended his morals by drinking its wine.
He justly the drinking of water decried,
For he knew that all mankind, by drinking it died.

From this piece of history plainly we find
That water’s neither good for body or mind;
That virtue and safety in wine-bibbing’s found,
While all that drink water deserve to be drowned.

Now if you’ll excuse me, my glass is empty.

	You are Fozzie! Wokka Wokka! You love to make lame jokes. Your sense of humor might be a bit off, but you’re a great friend and can always be counted on..
Take the What Muppet Are You? Quiz!

I keep waiting to see who’s Miss Piggy!

	You are Statler or Waldorf! You don’t like dealing with most people, preferring to ridicule other people along with your equally misanthropic friend.
Take the What Muppet Are You? Quiz!

In the last Weezer video (Keep Fishin’) the cast of the Muppets participated. At the end the guy on the left says, “Hey, they’re not half bad.” to which the guy on the right says “No, they’re all bad!!” Everytime I see one of those pictures I think of that video. I freaking love Weezer. Sorry, Bart.