Michael: Really… well lemme tell ya about a guy named Benny…


Come and listen to the story bout a guy named Hinn
Poor little guy, theology a little thin
Then one day, he was feelin’ kinda looooooowww.
That’s when he figured out he had God in his Coat

Coat, that is. Jacket. Like the one you wear when it’s cold.

Well the first thing you know, ol’ Hinn’s a preachin’ man
Said, “If you gotta dollar, just put it in my hand.”
He said, “A simple man with a mansion I may be….
But it’s just cuz I believe in a 9-member Trinity.”

Trinity. 3 Members. More than 3 is better.

Well, don’tchya know that Benny’s still makin’ lots of cash
And anyone who calls him fraud, God is gonna smash
Just watch as his magic jacket streaks through the sky…
And don’t complain when a button hits you in the eye!

The Beverly Hinnbillys!

Bart: I can list numerous incidents over the course of our marriage where I have told Karen “we are going to do this” and she fussed and fumed and argued about it, and then came back to me months, (and sometimes years) later and said, “you were right”. (There have also been a lot more times when I was a blockhead, but I’m pretty good about forgetting all of those.) The most recent example is as follows:

We spent the better part of our marriage in a home church, (13 years) with a strong charismatic leaning. We also were very conversant in all the charismatic Ways & Means. When I took a new job that brought about a move halfway across the country, I seized on the opportunity to get out of the charismatic community. I had begun to recognize that immorality tended to go hand-in-hand with the charismatic beliefs, and I knew I had to keep my kids out of that. So we began attending traditional, boring “Bible” churches. Not charismatic. Karen was definitely NOT happy about that, mostly because she had not recognized the connection that I had seen. And she missed the worship. (Shoot – I missed the worship, I still miss the worship.) But I refused to steep my kids in a self-focused, emotion-driven culture. This has been a low-level debate between us for the past six years. Yesterday she called me at work and said, “Thank you for taking us out of the charismatic community”. She had just got off the phone with one of her girlfriends from Texas and had heard hair-raising stories about children of our friends who have “gone off the deep end”.

Moral of the story? You are the leader in your house. Lead.

Keen. I didn’t think that they represented the RCC all that accurately, but it is an interesting read.

Scott: You’ve convinced me. Any denomnation with kind of guy at the helm is the church for me.

Ken L: Yeah, that was my impression. The whole discussion on the beginnings of the Reformation seemed like a child trying to explain how the toy he broke wasn’t really ever broken. Their entire argument against the Protestant churches is summed up like this:

a. They’re not unified. We are.
b. They deny the authority of the papacy. The pope rules. John XII? Who’s he?
c. They believe that the Bible is more important than tradition. Tradition is king. Bow before it.
d. They believe that God’s grace is enough for salvation.
e. They had dealings with politicians that disliked the pope.

And that’s pretty much it. Granted, it went into a lot more detail… Maybe it’s the protestant in me, but I wanna say, “So?” Except for the first argument, which is sadly, bluntly true.

For the record, John XII is an interesting character. He was 17 or so when he ascended the papal throne. Some histories indicate that he was elected due to his mother’s “influence”... ahem… over the electors. He himself may have been the son of an earlier pope (probably Leo VII). During his 9 years of fun and entertainment, after he set up Otto I of Germany as Holy Roman Emperor, he was accused by a synod at St. Peter’s of “sacrilege, simony, perjury, murder, adultery, incest, and other crimes whose charges were dropped, not due to lack of evidence, but for the sake of public decency. He is thought to have been a devil worshipper, and he basically turned the Lateran Palace into a brothel. Before the synod could throw him out, he excommunicated the lot of them. Otto I, realizing that he had signed on with a slimeball, forcibly removed John and installed his own illegal pope (Leo VIII). Leo eventually fled from John’s troops. John responded by excommunicating Leo and everyone who elected him and stripping the guy who had originally ordained Leo as a priest, and finally by cutting off the hand of a cardinal, scourging a bishop, and cutting off the nose and ears of a high palatine official. Otto responded to John’s acts of love by threatening to march into Rome and finish John off. John deprived him of that by suddenly becoming paralyzed while committing adultery and dying 8 days later.

Fun guy.

Gene Veith on Profanity: Eric’s piece will deal with this in quite a different way, so get ready for Veith to come on here and trash Rigney.

Gee Richard, I do have a few I’ll send right up. (JN) Let me be more precise on that one. We have some abusers of the system. No doubt. They abuse it and know that they are driving up the cost. In a Christian ministry, how do we handle this? Rat on each other? Go to the brother and say, you need to think about all of us and not just yourself? It’s a strange situation.

Michael: You could solve the Medical Insurance problem at your school by moving the whole outfit to Canada. We have universal medicare up here ; – >

Thanks for all the bios. I will add others. If I forget, nag me. And thanks for the discussion on the divorce issue. Wish it were just theoretical. 7:30 a.m. Sunday morning it turned into the real world for someone I count as a friend and colleague. What to do when the other person simply walks away? The acknowledgement of a mutual problem is the beginning so some repair. But it must be both. One person cannot fix a marriage- or even see all its problems.

Scott et al on the PCUSA: Do you realize a pastor wrote one of the letter’s recanting his elders signature on the GA recall petition? The PCUSA apostate leadership is corrupt to an extent that sickens me. When I was among the liberals in years past, I would see this kind of disposable integrity in all kinds of things. It is one of the things that drew me to the other team, despite so many shortcomings. Criminal complaints are on the way in Louisville against the moderator and the stated clerk. Crisis in the denomiantion is coming.

I am very very sorry to see this article by Clark Pinnock in the publication of Presbyterians for Renewal, a group I have supported ever since I have been hanging out with the Presbys.

Matthew J: I walked into my 8th grade science class, having just finished pounding the snot out of the smartest, richest kid in school in an exercise called “State-Sponsored Repression Tactics”, also known as the Phys Ed wrestling training. Mr. Sparks, a notoriously harsh teacher, was watching TV. We assumed that we had lucked out because the bell rang, and nothing happened. We spent 15 minutes watching Dan Rather interview someone. I heard the words “death” and “President”. I thought someone had shot Reagan. Then someone mentioned “Space Shuttle”. I said, “Oh, yeah – they went up today… cool – we get to watch the liftoff.” We never watched shuttle liftoffs, and I hadn’t quite put 2 and 2 together. Dan then told us we were going to see the replay of the launch. Keeeeeen, thought I. A minute and change later, the class, which had been murmuring up until this point, went dead silent, save for one girl (Paige Sartin) who just said, “Oh, my God.” That class was silent for the rest of the period. The rest of the day, it was like walking through sludge.

To Whoever was talking about it: I believe that I have heard the voice of God on three occasions. I was 17, and deeply into a bunch of stuff I oughtna’ been into. I was in my house church’s bathroom, teasing my 80’s-cheese metal hairdo, getting ready to leave and party with a friend of mine. I promise you – I heard a voice loud and clear – “No more – you’ve gone far enough.” Scared the hell out of me. Literally. My life has never been the same.

The second time was a while later. I prayed to God one night, “God, I would like a wife.” I heard one word this time: “Jacob”. I checked the scripture and read about how Jacob waited 7 years for his wife.

I had just been out on a first date with a really nice girl I had been set up with. Everything went really… surprisingly well. I woke up the next morning and prayed, “God – is this the girl I’m going to marry?” I heard “Yep.” Later on, after I had married Anne, I looked back, and guess what – the day I went out with her was right at 7 years after I had prayed previously. God is good. So is my wife.

BIOG: I was born in Montreal, Quebec in 1961. French is my mother tongue. My growing up years were filled with family, the Montreal Canadiens, friends, hockey, school, Church (in the parish of Notre-Dame-des-Anges = Our Lady of All Angels), hockey. It was an excellent childhood. At the age of 18 I came to faith in Christ by reading the New Testament on my own. I am a graduate of Vanier College (Montreal), Concordia University (Montreal), and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (South Hamilton, MA). I also enjoyed a fellowship at Tyndale House at the University of Cambridge.

I am very much in love with Elizabeth (married 18 years). We have a teenage daughter and a six-year-old son. We live in beautiful Golden, British Columbia where I pastor the Baptist church.

Bill/Bart (or Angus depending…..) Sick horse alert!!!!!

When is the freakin’ Gregory/Jack H lovefest going to end. I liked the fight better.

Bart: Congratulations. 1) Find the church that you are looking for. Take your time. 2) Be convinced in your mind and heart. 3) It’s time to stop being what you aren’t. This is the center of your life. Your wife needs to respect that or at least be willing to compromise. If SBC land isn’t working for you but it is for her, then find something that can work for both. You can’t sacrifice something this vital! Being spiritually exiled is not good for marriage, work, parenting, etc.

Have you guys seen this? Helen Thomas—-go to a nursing home. You are senile. You are not charming. You are a muttering old fart wheeled out at liberal gabfests to say outrageous things. Shame on you. What a way to end a career. Go seduce Clinton.

I have worked ten pounds off on this blog in the last hour making a bio page, updating this and that…and I still have Rigney’s articles to edit. (And they are worth the wait…you guys will love ‘em.)

Bart: What constitutes a VALID Lord’s Supper?

Also, did y’all realize that today is the 17th anniversary of the Challenger explosion? I was in 3rd grade watching it on an old black and white tube. Sheesh that was a long time ago.

KenL: I just read the article on the Reformation over at the Catholic Encyclopedia. Does that basically cover it?

Bart: Great News! Here’s hoping your new job is better than the old!

Bart, that is sweet news. I’ve been praying for y’all. I’ll give your question to my wife because she sure as heck doesn’t want to be in the UMC. I don’t know why. She’ll fit right in considering her lack of submission…don’t tell her that ;-)

Bart-Man: Congrats on the new position! They are lucky to have you!
As to your question: I don’t know, brother. That’s a tough one. Any puny wisdom I might have does not seem to be immediately presenting itself on this one. I’ll definitely be praying about it though.
BTW, What happened to Seanachie’s (sp?)?

Man, another bio? I just posted one like, a few weeks ago ;-)

Born in Houston, TX. Baptised in the Lutheran church my parents attended. Can’t tell you the name of the place. Age of 3, moved to College Station. Age of 9, moved with family to New York City. Attended an Episcopal Church in New York, but didn’t come to Christ (or rather, Christ grabbed me and opened my eyes) until I attended a Greg Laurie Crusade with my mom during my sophmore year of high school. Family moved back to College Station after my senior year of HS, but I went to college in Rochester, NY.

Had a horrid first year in Rochester and decided to come home to get my bearings. During this time, I was in a pretty dry time spiritually speaking. Attended community college, and met this Georgian girl on the Internet named Amanda. Long story short, Internet romance actually worked. It helped that we were both Christians, but I am convinced God’s hand was moving. Amanda moved to my town and we became a couple.

Amanda and I wanted to find a good church home to attend. We tried an Episcopal one, but the diocese here was nothing like that back in NYC. They called themselves progressive, I called them apostate. Amanda was Southern Baptist, so we decided to try the Baptist churches. After a brief stint at a Freewill Baptist Church (had to leave on account of doctrinal differences), we settled on a small, family oriented SBC church. Amanda had been baptized, but maintains that it was a social thing rather than following a profession of faith. Me, I’d only be “sprinkled”. So, both of us got baptized upon joining. [Not gonna get into a baptism debate…so save it :) ].

Now we’re married. I’ll be finished with my computer science degree at Sam Houston State in May, and then we’re headin’ up to Denton so that Amanda can finish her music degree at University of North Texas. Oh yeah, I’m gonna need a job soon. Anybody in the Dallas area need a computer geek?

Gentleman (loosely meant) –

I have an announcement and a question:

1.Announcement: through Gods divine providence, I was offered and have accepted a position working for American Healthway’s, no more than 50 feet from Rob Ray. I am both thankful and exceptionally blessed.

2.The question: How in the world do I address the ever widening gap that exists between my Lutheran heritage that which I am encountering in the SBC? I just don’t think I can endure much more. My wife is “borned SBC” and not particularly interested in attending ANY non-SBC church. What the hell do I do? I don’t think I have had a “VALID” lords supper in 17 years.

I was born in Lexington KY in 1966. We moved allover the Midwest until we settled in Chicago. I lived there from the first through the Tenth grades. I attended and was confirmed in the LCMS. We returned to Kentucky the summer before my junior year. I graduated Somerset High School in 1985. 1985-1990 are the years in which my life took many crazy turns. For one thing, the only Lutheran church in Somerset was an LCA church (very liberal); so we began to attend FBCS and were forced to be Re-Baptized. In 1991, I went to Carson-Newman College and obtained both a BA and MA degrees. I met my wife there and will be married for 10 years on June 5th. We have 3 children Andrew (8), Sarah (4), and Matthew (10 months). We currently attend Two Rivers Baptist Church.

Greg: Strong feelings are fine and God can give us strong feelings, but should we take the next step and say “God is telling me to do ….”?
Also, if someone says God spoke audibly to them, you say we should check it out and make sure it’s real, in line with scripture, etc. My point is that if someone says “I feel led to do ….. ” we never give it a second thought! But God speaking audibly is scriptural and “people feeling led” is not. Why the double standard? Please don’t think I’m accusing you of this. I just happen to be talking to you at the moment. It’s the evangelical church in general. It’s almost as if Christians aren’t allowed to do anything just because they want to. If they aren’t “led” to do it then they shouldn’t. It’s a load of crap.

Bio: I was born in New York City in 1965 but moved to Cleveland, Ohio at the tender age of one (Not by myself, of course, with my parents). I’ve called southeast Kentucky my home since 1996. How one ends up in southeast Kentucky from Cleveland is way too long a story; however, I will say that, contrary to local rumors, I AM NOT IN THE WITNESS PROTECTION PROGRAM. I’ve been married for ten years to my wonderful wife, Connie. We have no children. I’m currently employed as a paralegal in the county prosecutor’s office. My interests include reading, writing, football, and music. I’ve played drums for 24 years and recently started playing piano and bass guitar.

I’m 26 and a soon to be graduate of Asbury Theological Seminary. The first 8 years of my life were spent between Ft. Bliss, TX (El Paso) and Regensburg, Germany. My parents divorced when I was 9, just a little over a year after my Mom took me and my sister to her hometown in Northeast Arkansas. I graduated from the University of Arkansas in 1999 with a B.A. in English Literature. I have been married for a little over a year and a half to my wife and much better half, Heather. Upon graduation I will be returning to Arkansas to pastor a United Methodist church (not sure where yet). I met Michael on a message board that was linked to Piper’s Desiring God Ministry about 3-4 years ago and since then we’ve shared a couple of meals (even a little dead horse ;-) and I also mugged him of his Merton collection. I love the Razorbacks, Faulkner…well, most Southern writers to be accurate, but Willie is my favorite…, learning dead languages, and writing with my fountain pens.

Jim Wetzel, I was being sarcastic. Michael, shouldn’t “Jim Nicholson is being sarcastic” be one of the rules by now?. Seriously, let’s call you “Jim”. Calling people by their last names is something I reserve for people I really hate (“Clinton”, etc.) or people I really admire. Or people whose first names I can’t remember.

Plus, this way, we can reply to posts directed toward each other, and win arguments by confusing our enemies.

Bio: Grandfather (mother’s side) was a Methodist minister, father’s family was rural Baptist. I was raised primarily in the Methodist tradition, but occasionally went to Baptist churches. My parents largely shied away from church altogether prior to entering my teens. My college life was largely non-Christian and I continued in a rather heathen existence for many years after college. In May of 1995, largely due to a friend of mine who was also in the searching mode, I agreed to go to a Charismatic church (New Life Church, Colorado Springs). At the time, I was living in my parent’s basement (age 32). I had a dream the night before that turned out to be rather prophetic as the pastor stated the same words I had stated in my dream. In 1996, I moved to Atlanta, shortly after my parents moved there. I was willing to submit to God, but I wanted to tackle my own demons, which led me into some trouble. I met my wife in Atlanta.

In 1997, I moved to Nashville. We searched for about two years, bouncing from church to church until we settled on the church I currently go to: Harpeth Heights Baptist Church in Bellevue, TN. I am currently married (5 years) and have three daughters (tax deductions for any accountants who might be lurking ;-> ): Rebecca (3), Emily (almost 2) and Annabelle (about 6 mos). I work as a webmaster and Internet Architect for the Central Parking Corporation and write computer articles and participiate in Usenet as an MVP (Microsoft Most Valuable Professional) on the side.

My main hobbies, at this time, are reading (primarily non-fiction) and learning languages (a strange hobby, perhaps). I also spend too much time in boards and blogs discussing a variety of topics. I have considered getting a higher degree. I would like to follow my grandfather with an M.Div. and consider ministry, but the practical would be an MBA. Looking at what is happening in my life, I sense a roadblock coming in the way of the practical. I will provide more details if anyone is interested.

I need to tone this down for a one paragraph, but this is my first pass.

Ken: I read the book. If we are talking eschatology, we will not unite before it is “too late,” and many will “fall asleep.”

Jack: I also admire your style. Most blogs and UseNet discussions generally end with a “because you are an idiot” (sometimes other less prurient words are substituted for idiot). The truth is that we cannot fully comprehend God, as He is so massive. As such, we each struggle to figure out the meaning of scripture. In heaven, we may have a great laugh to find out that each of us was right, but our finite minds could not figure that out.

To me, the church should believe that what it is doing is the most important thing in the world. While a heart surgeon may be able to prolong life, only Jesus can give eternal life. I believe that we, as a society, and perhpas as a world, have very short term vision. We focus on the here and now, and ignore the eternal. If we could adopt a long-term focus, we would understand that dying in a car accident, et al, is incosequential if you have Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I have reached a point where most of the storms of life seem like minor squalls to me. I account this to Christ, as I can be an incredible worry wart left to my own designs.

Jim: On leaving your wife for a secretary. If you wife is a heathen pagan and wants to leave you and you leave first, you might have a scriptural argument (weak in my opinion). In the past, God was not contrary to scripture in asking people to do many odd things. As long as you can fit the message in scripture, you are fine. If we, instead, believe whatever voice whispers in our ear, we are opening a great hole for the thief that comes to kill, steal and destroy.

Bill: I have not had God speak to me in an audible voice. I have had very strong feelings, and, in at least one instance, obeying the sudden strong feeling has saved my life. I did not say that I believe that hearing from God is the norm, but that I believe God still reaches some people in exactly that manner. I also believe that those that hear the voice should test the spirit and make sure it is God talking. As the only rock we have to test a spirit is the Word of God, scripture is key to making sure you are not deceived.

As far as being sure that it is God talking to you, I cannot give a canned answer, as God has never reached me in this manner. If someone told me that God was, I would definitely make sure they were getting all the signals correct and that everything they were told was scripturally sound, as God is always 100% correct when he speaks to man, not 99.999%. As far as my own personal experience, God speaks to me through conscience and by illuminating the scripture. When the two are in line, I better listen. I generally do not, and God puts up roadblocks on my own plans and “forces” (bad word, as it has a negative connotation) me to the path He intends. When I ultimately stop trying to do it myself, and give in to God, I find that there is a great reward for my, late, obedience. I can give examples, if that will help.

There are some that are led, I believe. I also believe that most people who “feel led” are obeying the emotions rather than the call of God. But, I cannot judge what God might put on someone’s heart; I can only offer advice based on scripture, as that is my rock.

Daniel: I can see it now. The Sermon on the Mount for Teens. The Sermon on the Mount for Toddlers. A whole new series. It will be bigger than Jabez and I will be famous. I will be able to finally free myself and I … Lots of I’s in there. Better rethink this one. ;->

Bio: Born 1962, Winthrop NY. Raised Methodist. (actually, I’ve never been to a methodist service in my life. I didn’t go to church at all. When people asked what I was I said methodist because I knew I wasn’t catholic and methodist was the only protestant denomination I knew the name of). Became a Christian at age 18. Attend and serve in a SBC church in Winthrop. Calvinist for about 1.5 years now. Avid outdoorsman. Degrees in Electronics, Science and Management. I’ve worked for 15 years at Clarkson University, a private engineering college in Potsdam, NY. I am the IT coordinator and instructor for the School of Business. Huge SciFi fan. Lovely wife, Miriam, and 2 children, Justin 18, Jenna 16. Justin is in his first year at Clarkson (free tuition for employees) and pulled a 3.82 his first semester. He was class valedictorian in high school. I love to teach. My favorite authors are C.S. Lewis, John Bunyan, P.G. Wodehouse and Patrick F. McManus. Love to play Racquetball (leaving to play in about 15 min). My son and I like to watch cooking shows (Emeril and Iron Chef!). I am an animal lover (roasted, mostly).

Hello everyone.
BIO: I am a walking talking example of God’s grace and mercy—by every reasonable (and even generous) statistical indicator, I ought to be someplace far removed from where I am today. I come from a family that puts the fun in dysfunction, a family who has the door to their skeleton closet flung wide, with a barker outside enticing newcomers inside—yet somehow (glory to God) I avoided its siren call. I have been married for 8 years, and I have a gorgeous 5-year-old daughter. I graduated from Georgetown College in 1994 with a BA in English, and from EKU in 2001 with an MA in Rhet/Comp and American Lit. I now teach writing and literature at Madisonville Community College, near Michael’s old stamping ground. I am saved and kept by grace, through faith, and that is the best thing you can say about my life.

Michael, can I propose a quote for the top of the page?

Communities are not formed by doctrine, but by obedience, and the two great instruments for securing obedience are ritual and law.

JimN: I read your bio. You’re like a 7 on the GI (geek index). I’m only a 6, I don’t know linux well. Very interesting. I am a rabidly fanatical fisherman and I have never been to Trout Lake.

In fact, the more bios being put up, it’s like a geekfest!

Bill, my mom grew up in Hermon. We have a cottage on Trout Lake. The Baptist church in Hermon is affiliated with the GARB. Also, be aware that within Anglicanism, the distinction between poligamy and divorce you’re making has resulted in some African bishops accusing the Church of England of endorsing what they call “serial poligamy” by allowing divorce, but denying communion to poligamist converts who don’t divorce all but their first wives. (Wish I remembered the referrence. It was the most unintentionally funny article I ever read in the theological journal.)

Michael, on PC-USA, I think it would be premature to assume that all the pressure to recant the petition came from the opposition. Our church is firmly within the Confessing Church, but no one from it signed. I get the feeling that if someone did, our pastor would be asking them to pull their signature. Unfortunately, “remove my signature from the petition calling for an assembly” is going to be mis-understood as “change my position on the ordination of homosexuals” all across the board.

On divorce, not only are you launching another dead horse, you’re coming dangerously close to the current one. It all comes down to understanding what Paul meant believer and unbeliever in that context, doesn’t it? And if being a “believer” is more than saying a prayer once, then can someone in a persistent state of denial and unrepentance be a believer? Can someone be a believer, and then stop believing? What was that last point again? [I’m ducking in case any glassware is headed my way…]

Jim W We already have a Jim. Can we call you “Bob” to keep thing simple? More than you want to know about me is here. I tried to write an autobiography once, but it isn’t finished yet.

Michael: I agree that adultery and abandonment are 2 different issues. My question was more from my own experience in our church. I didn’t mean to confuse the 2 issues, although I think the reasoning in the PersonA PersonB scenario is sound. Your point is that abandonment alone is sufficient grounds for remarriage. I see your point. My hesitance is that the Pauline passage specifically speaks of unbelievers so I’d have to look at it more closely. So, are you saying that only mutually agreed upon divorce is a basis for not remarrying?


Let me separate out my question from before. A man puts away his wife for burning the toast (shamai or hillel, I can’t remember which) and remarries. When he and his new wife come together they commit adulterly. When does it stop being adultery? When he asks forgiveness for the divorce? That is the current thinking at least in the churches I have been in.

I’m sure you have seen in the SBC that this becomes a big issue when choosing deacons. From my own point of view I have changed my mind concerning the “husband of one wife” passage to mean polygamy as opposed to divorced and remarried. The reasons are somewhat complex so I’ll probably bring them up later. I used to think the polygamy interpretation was just an easy copout but I now think it is the correct interpretation.

Do you want us to post our bio’s right here?

Don’t forget to add my venison recipes to the BHT menu. The world has a right to know!

Bil: Not to quibble, but it seems to me that to interpret this issue we have to read all of scripture and not interpret some by others. (I am sure you have experienced the Southern Baptist tendency to take one passage on divorce and use it to trump all others.) To me, abandonment is sufficient for the believer to “not be bound.” I don’t think it could be more clearly stated, and adultery seems to be a separate issue. Jesus states that remarriage can be adultery. Matthew 5 and I Cor 7 say when remarriage is not adultery and when a marriage is dissolved: at the point of adultery or when one spouse refuses to live within the bonds of marriage.

Bio: Here ;-)

Jim W: Welcome

Jim N and Michael S: A split of PCUSA is nothing more than an external realization of a process that began a long time ago. The Confessing Church movement may not have planned to split the church, but it certainly has the right machinery. Frankly, I say good for them. Even though the PCUSA church the wife and I currently attend is not a member of the movement, she and I would probably quickly join.

Bill MacK: Simple, and correct.

Bio: I am Scott Ward, from the booming metropolitan area of Alamance County, North Carolina. I am 30 years old, am married to a beautiful bride of 2 years with no kids, and am working as a PC Tech and Webmaster. I am the last official graduate of Montreat-Anderson College (who was Montreat College by the time I received my diploma in October 95 – don’t ask) with a BS in Human Services and Cross Cultural Studies with a focus in Youth and Adolescence, and I think Family Science, but I’m not sure (I never looked into it too closely). Either way, it was a fancy way of saying I’m a trained Youth Minister, with aspirations of possibly going to seminary at some point. I was raised in a house church, which meant I was completely unprepared for a life of Youth Ministry in a denominational church. I am currently a member of a Southern Baptist congregation, although (for various reasons), my wife and I split our time between it and a PCUSA chuch. I worked with a band (called the Five Minute Band) until late last year, which was a branch of an Evangelistic ministry out of Wilmington, NC. I’m an avid movie buff (I’ve probably seen between 2,000 and 5,000 movies – I lost count) and cook – which also means I’m a hefty fella (about the size of a Carolina Panthers Linesman). I am currently working on 2 new projects, one called Akroaterion (a newsletter site) and a personal Bible Study / Commentary on the book of Ephesians. I enjoy debate, theology, and study – and am a strong believer in sarcasm as a tool.

Good enough?

Jim: Welcome!

Michael: We could assume the abandoning spouse isn’t really a Christian. That would make it easier and tidier wouldn’t it? Seriously, I see your point but don’t have a good answer. We go over this same ground all the time in our church. The cry is “divorce isn’t the unpardonable sin”! That’s true. The question I struggle with is this: If a person puts away his wife (except for infidelity), and marries another, he commits adultery. My question: When does their coming together stop being adultery? Adultery is only possible if the person is still married to his first wife. When does God dissolve that union? It is so hard to ask these questions because it is seen as ultra-judgemental. You don’t know what two people have gone through to reach the point of divorce. But does that mean there are certain questions that are off limits? It is only because I don’t know the history of folks at the BHT that I even dare bring this up. The trouble is, these verses can also be used as a club to keep people (especially women) in abusive marriages where they get beat up every night.

Let’s look at it this way. If person A abandons person B and remarries, then person A has been unfaithful to person B, leaving person B free to remarry also. That’s the way I see it. Too simple?

JimN: I agree with your pastor, but I am frustrated beyond the point of civil discussion that practicing homosexuals are being ordained and the Constitution is just sitting there on the shelf. This is sort of like the Israelis building settlements in occupied lands. When you’ve done enough of that, then you have to accept it as part of the landscape. This is what the apostates want to do. Openly ordain without consequence and in violation of the denomination and its constitution. Then eventually, by sheer act of will, they will force some kind of acceptance. I don’t want a special GA either. But I want their feet to the fire. And just read what the liberal establishment at the denominational level did to scuttle this!! Unreal. A split is inevitable.

Welcome Jim: What would you guys think of everyone posting a ONE PARAGRAPH BIO TODAY so I can make a bio page?

NIV 1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

I know from experience that the subject of divorce has dead horse possibilities, but I want to discuss this text a bit. It is one of two texts in the New Testament that seem to give approval for divorce. (Matt 5:32 being the other one.) The emphasis in the context is on how Christians should approach various situations involving marriage to unbelievers. It is entirely logical that Christians in Corinth would have asked the questions that Paul was answering. The question I have is this: Though the verse specifically is addressed to Christians abandoned by unbelievers, does it apply to Christians abandoned by Christians? In other words, if a Christian spouse abandons the marriage vow and refuses to live as husband and wife, what then?

I’ve faced this many times as a counselor. I remember one pastor whose wife left him and remarried. Five years later this guy was still saying “I’m her husband. I want her back.” He refused to accept this verse as a word to not be “bound,” and would not move on. In my opinion, the sin here is the abandonment of the marriage vow by ANYONE. I see no evidence that a Christian spouse who is abandoned must remain single, and not hear the word that they are not bound. I can’t see that Paul is recognizing some “fine print” that says a marriage between a Christian and an unbeliever is less binding than one between Christians.

NOTE: I am not inviting a general discussion of divorce. (Nor am I banning it.) If you believe there are no reasons for divorce ever, I simply disagree, based on these texts. ANd on the general principle that there is no area of human life where sin and grace do not apply. I will say that I’m not awareof the marital history of everyone on the blog, so be cautious.

Jim: Is there a GARB church in Potsdam? If, so, I’ve never heard of it. What are you looking for? Reformed? That might be tough. We have a Presbyterian church but I don’t know who they are affiliated with. Episcopal? I’m sure you’ve seen that one. There is an SBC on the edge of town. A few Charismatic churches. Nazarene. There must be a Methodist church around here somewhere.

KenL: I had this typed up last night but lost it when my internet connection went bad. I assume the RCC thinks the Reformation was a big mistake. I’m sure they may have stronger words but let’s go with that. My question: What should Luther have done? What does a person do when they think the church is wrong and the church’s response is “see rule #1, the church is never wrong”? I’m not that well versed in Reformation History but didn’t Luther try to go through RCC channels at first to try to correct some things? I read the Kreeft article on his RCC conversion where he states, “The Church has never taught heresy”. Does this mean the RCC has never been wrong? Have there never been decrees or teachings discarded or reversed? Haven’t there been bad popes? When do we know when they are right and when they are wrong? Please don’t think I’m arguing from a high position of superiority. The SBC has some huge problems, but we don’t claim infallibility or diviine right. These questions have to be asked and hashed out if anything close to reconciliation ever takes place. I do feel bad that you are the only Papist here cause it feels like we are ganging up on you.

Michael: I agree there is a big difference between RC and his son. RC Jr. once called one of his professors a “creeping arminian” because he said Adam and Eve sinned of their own free will.

Robert: I think people that label NCT antinomian simply haven’t read much about it. Observing 9 of 10 commandments (and no one keeps the Sabbath commandment anyway) is hardly antinomian.

Ok, take a deep breath.

Bill, I currently attend a PC-USA church here in NJ, as you might have gleaned from Michael’s aside to me over the latest news about that denomination. GARB is the General Association of Regular Baptists, which in my experience is a very small, very fundementalist group of people committed to stamping out fun and enjoyment everywhere by railing against such societal evils as movies, playing cards, and (shudder!) mixed bathing. Actually, that’s not fair, as I have a cousin who’s ordained in that denomination, and he appears to smile occasionally. I think they’re the denomination behind Baptist Bible College in Clarks Summit, PA. They are really big on “separation”, especially “from Apostacy,” which seems to mean not hanging out with paedobaptists, antiprohibitionists, or papists. Sorry, Ken. Or for that matter, anyone who doesn’t hold to dispensationalism, which rules most of us out, except Andy. Or the practice of sign gifts, which I think rules Andy out too.

[Part of the above was sarcastic. There are some good people in the GARB. I think they’re wrong, but they’re saved, and Jesus loves them. I’m wrong too sometimes.]

On Sproul, every time I hear Steve Brown say that Reformed people may be right, but they aren’t very nice, I have this inescapable feeling that he’s looking at R. C. jr. That said, I don’t throw out any Sproul just because he’s hard on catholics, any more than I would throw out Schaeffer for wearing knickers (or being premillenial, for that matter – as is Brown, BTW.)

Michael, I spoke with my pastor about the petition, and he had an interesting read on it. He was in favor of raising the issues that the petition wants to table, but he was against having a special session. He had two objections; first, he agreed with Abu-Akel that the expense associated with a special session would be prohibitive. More importantly, he feels strongly that raising this issue in a special session would actually work against those who are pushing the petition. Let’s say they had their way, and in special session, the assembly condemns the practice. Those on the other side will always argue that the special session has no bearing, because it was outside the normal session and was “stacked” against their side. So Jeff’s view is that the issue should be raised during a regular session.

For those of you reading this in the GARB, the “issue” here is whether PC-USA churchs can ordain elders and deacons who are practicing homosexuals. The petitioners are against it, in affirmation of the constitution of the church and the confession.

If you guys want to know what Eastern KY is facing, and why I have decided to stick with it here in the mountains, read this special story from the Lex Herald-Leader about drug abuse here in the mountains in the story of one girl from Beattyville, my dad’s home town, just 30 minutes from where I am typing. Where I am is worse than what is described here.

Let me attempt a defense of R.C. Sproul, who I think generally gets a harder time than he deserves on here. For starters, Tabletalk is edited by R.C. Sproul, Jr, and the articles are by a variety of writers and denominational backgrounds. R.C. usually writes an opening type article, but I think it is safe to say that R.C. Jr. is a bit more polemical than his dad. R.C. has written a lot, so I am not surprised that a few of you guys have R.C. quotes that you disagree with. I have several myself. But, considering Calvinists as a group, R.C. is the most gracious, humorous, self-effacing, humble guy you can imagine. He is a skilled communicator, and has a real gift at bringing things down to an understandable level. He seldom beats dead horses. His reaction to ECT is the source of his books on the doctrine of Justification by faith. To Ken I would say this: R.C. will seldom be faulted for misquoting or creating a straw target. If what he says is true, then the RCC is nowhere near the Reformed doctrine of justification.

Several Kreeft Essays on Christianity and other religions. Very good.

To whoever asked about Job: I am teaching Job to about 15 adults.

Here it is people. The PCUSA is on its way to a split. Write it down JimN. This is the beginning of the end.

Eric has a huge collection of Chick tracts which he takes out and reads late at night. Don’t get him started.

Kurt: I was raised in a community that was 1/3 SBC and 1/3 RCC. We were taught that all Catholics were lost. Period. Idol worshiping, child-snatching, Mary-worshiping pagans. Don’t befriend them. Don’t date them. Unfortunately, I violated all rules. Dated one. Began attending a RC Charismatic worship/prayer group. Decided real quick that those people knew Jesus pretty well. It’s been downhill from there.

Now I realize that my RCC friends and I share the first four centuries of Christianity. Something that most of my Baptist and Pentecostal friends have no interest in whatsoever. We share the creeds, the Fathers. I have come to believe that we all stand on the Rock that is Christ. We differ greatly about what it means to ‘stand” on that rock, but we are standing there (if we believe the Gospel.) Kreeft (and that Rosary muttering papist in the corner) make it clear that the RCC actually believes far more of the Gospel than many Catholics are aware. I hope that is the case. It certainly is among thr RCs that I read.

What about Protestants like my favorite R.C. Sproul who make it clear that no one believing the teaching of the RCC can be a Christian? I think they are wrong. The expression of doctrine and the essence of faith is imperfect. The RCC may teach much that is error in my puny opinion, but they do not deny the essential content of the Apostle’s Creed. In fact, the RCC is more faithful to the essence of Christology than many Protestants.

Ken L.

Jack Chick eh? Well I’m an evangelical Southern Baptist, but he’d probably say I’m going to Hell because I play roleplaying games from time to time (I’ve even played that sinful old D&D!). Speaking of RPGs, lemme plug one of my clubs, the Christian Gaming Guild. Now y’all think I’m weird, right?

[sarcasm_mode=true] I love ministries based on printed materials that are self-perpetuating. Too scared to share the gospel with strangers? Don’t worry, just get a packet of Chick Tracts(tms) and leave ‘em in phone booths, movie theatres, mailboxes, etc, and be assured you’re Doing Your Part™ for the Kingdom o’ God! Just send a check or money order to…[sarcasm_mode=false]

I guess I shouldn’t rag on ol’ JC too much. I mean, I guess he really does want to see people saved, but I wonder how many people he’s polarized AGAINST the gospel with his burn-in-hell style.

Jim, We knew of a lady once who said in all seriousness that God told her to have an affair. Truly! And we’ve seen so many Christian kids come here to our school saying, “God told me to come here.” Then a week later when they’re homesick, it’s “God’s telling me to leave.” Pity that God’s so confused, huh?

I think we should start a drinking game (our resident teetotaler can substitute a cold Coke or whatever in place of the libation). Anytime anyone mentions the beloved (JN) Jack Chick and his wonderful (JN) publications, everybody takes a swig!
Well, back to class now (I hate teaching evening classes :(

Michael:
Okay, I’ll bite. Why do all your friends think Ken is going to Hell?

And which Ken did you mean anyhow?

Heh, I gotta say, that little “dead horse” picture rocks. Where do you get this stuff, man? That woman looks like she just took down the horse herself and she’s ready to go another round with whatever else the stables can throw at her. With a swing like that, she could give Serena and Venus a run for the money!

I haven’t posted to the BHT menu. Time to correct that.

Cured Venison Loin

Soak one whole Venison backstrap in a brine mixture of Morton Tender Quick (use 1/2 what they suggest) and 1 cup brown sugar for 3 days. Thoroughly rinse and soak in clean water for 24 hours. Rinse again, score the meat with a knife and grill to desired doneness with appropriate spices and favorite BBQ sauce.

Venson Jerky

4lbs sliced venison
1/2 cup worcestershire sauce
1/2 cup soy sauce
2 tablespoons ketchup
2 tablespoons brown sugar
1 teaspoon liquid smoke
2 teaspoons black pepper
1 teaspoon onion powder
1 teaspoon garlic powder
a little cayenne if desired.

Marinate 24 hours.
Dry in oven or dehydrator until leathery.

Michael, since you one-up’d me on the Max McLean video over the audio I recommended, I’ll raise the stakes and say that if any of you get a chance to see Max live, do it. It’s something amazing. I’ve seen him do Mark, the bulk of Acts, and Genesis. All are fantastic shows, and if you think I’m talking about just watching some guy recite scripture from memory, you owe it to yourself to see it.

Plus, Max is a close personal friend of my brother, and his booking agent used to play drums in my band. So there.

Have your co-workers send me $10 each, and I’ll anoint a prayer handkerchief for them. Guaranteed to heal anyone with enough faith. While supplies last. What the heck do they mean when they say that you use the service too much? The point of insurance is to insure that your bills will be paid if you go to the doctor. Tell them to hire healthy people. Tell them to sanitize the workplace. Seriously, ask them to ask the insurer to provide access to preventative programs – it’s a huge money saver. This reminds me of a Monty Python sketch – the vicar has the “no claim payments” policy, where in return for low premiums, he gets insurance that doesn’t pay claims. Of course, he does get the naked lady in the wheelbarrow….

Gregory: Agreed. We shall agree to disagree. Nevertheless, if we are ever in a real fight, I’m on your side – I like your style.

New people and lurkers: Have you read the BHT Menu? It is a great collection of recipes from the blog. Outstanding description of an Italian Beef and Cheese sandwich! No dead horse. I promise. Contributions are always welcome.

I have a work question to bring up. And as I know some of my co-workers will read this, please don’t get cranky. We are looking at cutting expenses in these lean times, and our current health insurance is one of our problems. We have MAJOR Health insurance increases every year. Going up $170,000 this next year. The deal is, the school provides a great plan. Covers everything. $10 co-pay. Prescription coverage is great. It’s a Cadillac But the company tells us that our use of doctors, rate of hospitalizations, surgeries, prescriptions—-ALL are way above average. WAY WAY WAY above average. NOW…...we have some frequent users. No one would point a finger and say abusers, but we have frequent users. In my opinion, we have a certain percentage of our folks that overuse the coverage. Here’s the question: What should we do? Reduce the coverage? Raise the co-pay? Turn one another in for overuse? How does a Christian ministry address this?

I would like to thank everyone for all the kudos today. The odor of the Dead Horse seems to be entirely removed from the premises. (At this point Abe Vigoda is out in front) I am grateful every day for the BHT. There are many days it gives me a lot to look forward to, and the fellowship is a rare and wonderful gift.

Stefani: What are you seeing that you couldn’t see at the circus? Shania: Can sing Kum Ba Ya at my campfire anytime.

Someone threw up during my sermon today. This was long overdue.

Kurt: Evangelism with a premise- like they inquired or visited- is great. Dead cold sales calls are anotehr matter.

Don’t you guys know that Southern Baptists can’t possibly use EE. It’s PRESBYTERIAN! Really, one of the worst things about the Sunday School Board (Lifeway) and the Mission boards is their utter inability to admit there might be someone else in the Kingdom doing something worthwhile. Ridiculous waste of resources just so churches can have something Southern Baptist cover to cover. Bizarre.

Robert: I am so glad you are enjoying Kreeft. I don’t worry about his Catholicism. In fact, read his article Hauled Aboard the Ark which chronicles his conversion to the RCC. (Shudder.)

Eric: I did receive your stuff. I’m just snowed under. You don’t want to hear it. Then the friend at the door, which is going to occupy a lot of time and emotion I am afraid. I hardly slept last night afraid of what was going on. A whole world destroyed in a phone call.

Kurt again: Go witness to Ken. Most of my friends consider him lost. The fact that I don’t shouldn’t stop you from practicing on him.

Rob: Mark has been my major area of study for almost twenty years. I have an unfinished Mark site at www.geocities.com/digory1 Most of the links are dead and the Bible studies are unedited, but they have been up for three years and I get lots of positive feedback. They go through the middle of chapter 8 and there are lots of discussion questions on each one. Welcome to it, or write me with any questions.

Max Mclean’s Mark VIDEO is essential. Get it. It’s $10 and follows every word of the NIV text. He understands Mark and it shows.
Best commentary: William Lane, Mark in the New International Commentary on the New Testament. Really. Acquire it.
Next. Kent Hughes. Popular. Sermon style, but I think you’ll find them very helpful
Also: Mark: New American Commentary (Holman) by James Brooks. Brief. Good.
Ben Witherington III’s Mark Commentary. Technical but extremely insightful.
Non-Commentary essential: Mark as Story by Rhoades and Mitchie. I cannot tell you how helpful this book is.

On the issue of losing Blog posts: I was screwed by that sort of thing so many times that I now copy things before I hit the button. That way if it disappears, I just paste it back in and try again. There is no feeling quite like losing something you’ve written that you have no copy of. I have wept because of it (esp. when it happened while working on a research paper in grad school. It officially weaned me from MSWorks forever, non-auto-saving bastards).

Greetings fellow BHTers. I must chime in and say how much I love you guys and the whole BHT phenom. I admit that it has gotten so big that I sometimes struggle just to keep up and long for the days when it was about ten of us. But at the same time, I say the more the merrier! I say this without a trace of cynicism: fellowship with other believers is great. Fellowship with other believers from such a wide background and variety of theological and philosophical opinions and theories is a rare find, and is even better. Thank you, Michael, for such a wonderful opportunity.
Andy: Welcome (along with anyone I may have missed in the 1,000,000,000,000,000,001 posts since Friday afternoon).
Judd: It would not be un-Chrustian (see F. O’Conner for an explanation of the strange spelling) to say that Shania and Gwen are Hottie McHotties. Hubba hubba. However, Shania is best watched with the sound down (as I did last night) and Gwen usually sounds much better in concert (she sounded horrible last night, IMO). I was at a festival in NashVegas last year (hi, Bart!), and happened to see No Doubt. While I don’t like ALL of their stuff, she sounded (and looked) really good live. But last night—yowza. Out of breath and off-key.
Speaking of NashVegas, Bart, what happened to that pub we met you in? I heard it closed down.
Michael: Not having access to the BHT over the weekends, I didn’t get to chime in on the dead horse issue, but I think you made the right choice. I also like the new rules, particularly #27 :-) BTW, I think the horse should be named Ishmael Grimshaw or Abe Vigoda. Also BTW: Did my email come through okay the other day? BTW again: I am praying for whomever came to your door. Is it someone I know (not asking for gossip reasons, but out of curiosity and specificity in prayer—feel free to not answer if you’d rather not).

Kurt: I don’t see a problem with visiting people that have visited the church. Of course, I would call them and let them know I was coming. No cold calls.

Jim: What’s GARB? What church do you attend in NJ?

I also enjoy BHT a great deal, dead horse notwithstanding. It is refreshing interacting with Christians who can think. Let’s see, we have folks on both sides of the horse, protestants, catholics, pentecostals, paedo and credobaptists, covenant and new covenant theology folks. Who are we missing?

Matthew: It’s hard to tell unless we use the sarcasm symbol (JN). Except in Jim’s case. I think he should probably use a not-sarcastic symbol (NS?)

Matthew, I was? It must have slipped. Seriously, the old Berean approach seems to have problems all its own, even if you discount the “Judas went and hanged himself” proof-texting example.

I don’t evangelize, btw. There are people who have that gift; I don’t. I witness, hopefully, through the transformation in my life. As for door-to-door, well, my problem is empathy. I can all-too-easily imagine what those answering the bell think of the guy with the smile and the tracts and “God Loves You” button. Heck, I feel that way myself when the Mormons or JWs come calling. (Typically, we hide and don’t answer. I’m no Bible Answer Man, and dealing with cults gives me a headache.)

Robert, God Bless. I, too, have felt often that my recent years were a particularly long desert stretch, especially after the theological hothouse of my young adult days. All acrimony and sarcasm aside, “places” like BHT are a life-saver for me. (so please don’t kick me out for liking bits of Barth!)

Consarn it, what’s with Blogger today? Edited my post to fix the unclosed italics, and now it ain’t showing.

Oh fiddle :-/

Regarding evangelism… Thanks for all who weighed in this issue.

Regarding going door-to-door. I’m not wholly convinced that this is a bad thing, though I admit I do not relish doing it. In actuality, we don’t pick doors at random (unless we’re doing opinion polls, which I’ve already expressed extreme distate for), typically our church visits those who visit us and we try to ascertain their understanding of the gospel. If they don’t know, we tell them. That in itself seems like not a bad thing to me.

I think what I struggle with is more of the way things are done. If somebody should accept what we tell them and believe in Christ, there’s a little card and all that gets filled out, and the next step the program is tailored to do is to get them baptized and injected into church membership.

Here’s where more mental brakes come on. I didn’t see Phillip bust out a roll of parchment when he shared the gospel with the Ethiopian in the chariot. “Excellent, now we’re going to write down today’s date and your name…oh, and I’m going to put you in touch with our fellowship…” It seems that some things should not be formulized (I spell that right?)

So…while you’re getting ready to nod at, denounce or ridicule that last bit, let me go on to rant about Lifeway publishing. It seems that, if they had their way, they would be the sole source of literature for Southern Baptist Churches. They publish all of our Sunday School material we use, and, as I said before, are the distributors of the FAITH material.

Now, here’s a disturbing clip from one of the FAITH evangelism training books.

The answer to a question about other evangelistic approaches is, “FAITH is the best and only plan for now and the forseeable future to lead Sunday School and churches to win the world.”

So…if this stuff is so good (dropped directly from God, no doubt), why is Lifeway charging for all these books, tapes, packets, etc? Lifeway’s not a ministry, they’re a business! This just plain irritates me. Is there not a conflict of interest here?

I don’t know if I still have a point here. I still see lay-evangelism as good, but I want to take a critical look at how it is done. I need to spend some time back in the Book and see how they got it done. I’ll dump more thoughts as I get them.

Dang it, Jim! I was set on a lengthy reply to your response to Gregory and then God said “He’s being sarcastic!”

Gregory, how can you be sure that God isn’t telling you to leave your wife for your secretary? I mean, in the past, God told people to marry prostitutes, kill their only sons, etc.

Rob, the best aid for studying Mark that I can think of would be to pick up Max Mclean’s recorded performance of the book. Also, from years ago when I actually studied it in (shudder!) Bible College, I remember being told to start off by reading through the entire book at a sitting. It really helps to get the narative flow of the book.

Bill, you asked a while ago… I’m in Central NJ. But I’m going to talk to you sometime soon (based on your clarkson email address) about finding a church to visit in the North Country; it’s a perenial problem for us when we vacation up there, as the local GARB church has become unbearable, and the only alternatives have proven to be excessively pentecostal for our tastes.

Daniel, we use the “set it to music” approach all the time with our kids in homeschooling, and have found quite a few tapes. We get strange looks when, wandering through the isles of a store, our girls will be singing their geography songs …

I should qualify my statements about hearing God’s voice by saying that I do believe God stirs up our heart to do certain things. (Ezra 1:1,2) That is not the same as hearing God’s voice.

Greg: My question about hearing from God is this? Where do we learn from the bible that we should expect God to speak to us in a personal and subjective way? Where do we learn that God will provide us with instructions on decision making? When God spoke in the scriptures it was always clear who was speaking, and what was being said. It was also unusual. I don’t think God whispers. I dont’ think God gives us day to day instructions. As far as testing the voice, that’s ok but people aren’t claiming to hear a “voice”. The are “feeling led” and are being “impressed”. What the heck does that mean? Even if their “impression” fits with scripture, can they be sure it was God and not the beef and bean burritos they had for breakfast?

The see a TV show on Africa. Then a flyer comes in the mail with African kids on the front. Wow, they think. God may be trying to tell me something. I’m think I’m being led to become a missionary to Africa. Decision making by coincidence.

I’m going to be going down to Mexico in April for a mission trip. Somewhere along the line someone is going to ask me how I felt God was leading me to do it. I’m going to have to tell them I didn’t feel God leading me to do it. Why am I going? Matthew 28:19, and because I can. Do I need another reason?

Michael: “I’m still trying to memorize the entire Sermon on the Mount. It’s hard.” Set it to music. Then learn the song.

My college roomate actually did this for his biology final. He had to memorize the top 2 or 3 levels of the 7 phyla. (or is it 9 phyla?) Anyway, he was having a hard time until he wrote a song for each phyla and then learned the song. When he got to the final, he turned to the questions on the phyla, wrote down the chord progressions next to each one, sat there and sang the song to himself quitely (but not quietly enough to prevent some pointed stares in his direction) and wrote it out. He aced the test.

Plus, if you set the Sermon on the Mount to music, once you learn it, you could market the result and make enough to replace the broken crockery.

Andy: Welcome to the Tavern and ignore the broken mugs all over the floor. A dead horse got into the bar and wrecked the whole place. The owner of the dead horse (me?) will pick up the tab. ;->

Jim: I am learning Chinese right now … just in case!!! ;P

Jack: Probably best to agree to disagree. I think my bill for damages to the Tavern is a bit too high right now.

Michael: I have been around people who could quote the scripture according to Max Lucado, but this is the first time I have seen the same trend (different author) in my church. It made me realize that I am fortunate to be in the Sunday school class I am in where many have a good biblical grounding (the exception being the “grace covers all” crowd, IMHO). The fact that Experiencing God was used as a wedge to get something passed (which did not need the trump card, as it made sense) appalled me. If someone can quote scripture, I am convicted; quoting a man that has a hard time editing his material is an whole other story.

Kurt: First off, I despise the evangelical usage of witness as a verb. Biblically speaking, we are to be a witness of what Christ has done for us and that He is who is says He is, not to quote scripture. If a church wants to grow in the kingdom, it would be more prudent to spend time on the knees than it would to go out with a canned presentation and witness. If the Holy Spirit is not present, the best you can hope for is a few more bench warmers in the pew, getting a warm fuzzy that they are not in the bleachers.

It is nice that someone presents a program as a starting point, to equip believers to understand and relay the gospel. But, what generally happens is the adherants to FAITH, and systems like that, use it as a method to avoid actually learning more about the bible and use it as a canned, verbatim witnessing presentation.

On the topic of bait and switch. This is one that really steams me. God does not call man through deception, and his church, which is to be the living body of Christ, should act like God and shy away from such tactics. To me, it is no different from a pastor who, to make a good point, takes the bible out of context (2 Cor 4:2).

Proverbs 14:5 8
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies. The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning. Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips. The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception.