This is getting good.

Greg: The Jew of the first century, after the crucifixion, misses the fulfillment. So, I agree that something is missing. But, he still is praying to the one God.

While I agree that this is technically true, is this Jew worshipping the true God? Is he worshipping in spirit and truth? He doesn’t have the Spirit or the truth. How much more true is that today where most Jews have heard of Jesus and rejected his claim to Messiahship.

I’ve been thinking of my statement that the New Covenant replaces the Old. I don’t like it. I think of it this way rather: The New Covenant has swallowed up the Old.

Ken B, in the spirit of Dennis Miller, re Matthew’s ”...the State of Israel as we know it has no connection to the OT or NT. It is a secular state. It is not ‘Israel’ and never will be,” if anyone disagrees with that, you have my permission to kick their axx. Call me if you need help.

Gregory, I blog-hop too fast to catch all the posts at any sight. Including this one, especially with as much traffic as we get. Are we a conservative blog?

Jim N: I read the Rogers piece. Very nice. I also read some of her other blog pieces and the build up of Ariana Huffman is a bit over the top. ;->

Richard: The Jew of the first century, after the crucifixion, misses the fulfillment. So, I agree that something is missing. But, he still is praying to the one God.

Ken: John 8 is quite specific about why the “Jews” are called children of their father the devil. If you read through the entire communication, you see a direction. Jesus fulfilled the scripture, and they should have been able to see that, had they truly been children of God and of Abraham (both mentioned in the discourse). They were blinded to the divinity of Christ, as are Jews today.

As for the new covenant better than the new, re-read old testament. You see the same covenant in both. The definition of the covenant is only realized when you look at the entire picture, as both old and new ultimately point to Christ. Whether Galatians or Hebrews, the faith of many of the old fathers shows that they “got it” and walked with God. The law was largely designed to show that man is incapable of being righteous without God (Romans). It illuminates our weaknesses, just as Christ illuminates the darkness that our lives were prior to accepting Him as Lord and Savior.

How about this question: Do the Jews worship the same God that Christians do?

Think of it this way. Imagine a righteous Jew living in the 1st century. By all accounts he prays to and worships the true God. Then some events happen in Jerusalem. Jesus is crucified and buried on a Friday. Early on Sunday Jesus is raised from the dead. When the righteous Jew comes to his prayers on Sunday afternoon, is he now praying to and worshipping a false god? No! He’s still worshipping the true God. But something has changed… Something is now missing that wasn’t missing on Thursday because it didn’t exist on Thursday. He doesn’t know it but he needs the gospel. He needs to know what happened on the weekend! But he’s still worshipping the true God.

I see no reason to think any differently of the faith of Jews today.

Bill: I was discussing this very question with my pastor last night. I turned to John’s Gospel chapter 8, I believe around verse 42 and following and we read where Jesus rebuked the Jewish leaders saying “If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me” and a few verses later “Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” Don’t know if that answers that question about the Jews today, but many of the religious leaders in Jesus’ day did not.

Robert: I guess you answered the same way I would … So I would say as kindly as possible, that Judaism is a false religion, they do not worship the same God that we do.

... unless someone can convince me otherwise, from Scripture.

Someone at the Catholic church thought it would be a good idea to licence the BVM. Cooler heads prevailed!

Ken: You’re right, it is a tough issue. If you don’t come out and say it is false, then you leave open the possibility that they will think that the Jews can come to God their own way, ala John Hagee. I’m just not comfortable saying the Judaism is a false religion because of the reasons I stated. Even Judaism today could (theoretically) lead someone to conclude that Jesus is the Messiah, although that probably doesn’t often happen. You are correct is stating that the observation of Judaism itself is no longer God honoring and no, no one is justified by the ordinances of Judaism now because they weren’t justified by the ordinances even before Christ.

How about this question: Do the Jews worship the same God that Christians do? I get asked that alot. How would you guys and girls respond? Talk about inflammatory questions!

I disagree with your coworker. I wonder what he means by the nation of Israel being central to God’s plan in the world today. If he’s referring to a body of people, then the church is clearly central. Overall, though, I agree that Christ’s death and resurrection are central to everything.

JimN, yesterday in our debriefing over the whole prayerwalking conference, I used your response to the “God is about to do some of the greatest things He’s ever done.” The consensus of the class was that you are right. Duh.

Robert: Thanks for the links concerning NCT. I “surfed” the ids.org site several days ago.

Matthew: A fellow that I work with told me today that the nation of Israel was “central” to God’s plan in the world today. Paul, from scripture, would argue that the cross is “central”. I would have to agree with Paul not my co-worker.

Ken, I don’t think it is anti-Semitic, although people will often misconstrue it that way. I would say ‘yes, orthodox Jews are practicing a false religion.’ Their religion is not even the religion of Israel in the OT. When was the last time they sacrificed in the temple? They haven’t since AD 70. They are just grasping for some semblance of the religion of Israel which was fulfilled in the Messiah. Their practices have no significance concerning salvation. Now, we can be winsome in explaining this to folks, but they still may not want to hear it.

Bill: My goal is not to be Anti-Semetic (sp?). Are orthodox Jews practicing a false religion?

Yes, nearly everything in the Old Covenant points to Christ. But is anyone truly justified with God by practicing the ordinances and sacrifices of the Old Covenant? The ordinances and sacrifices simply point to Christ, who is the only one who saves.

Matthew: This question (#3) will probably raise a big stink in our class. Kinda like predestination / election does in the same class. ”...the State of Israel as we know it has no connection to the OT or NT. It is a secular state. It is not ‘Israel’ and never will be.” I will probably be the only one in class stating or agreeing to this fact.

Ken: Judaism is meant to point to Christ, who is the way of salvation, so in that sense it isn’t a false religion. It is being practiced incorrectly now, however, since it missed the coming of the Messiah.

I would say the New has replace the Old.

Yes, only Christians are God’s chosen.

Abraham preceded the Mosaic Covenant, which people regard as the Old Covenant, but there was an Abrahamic covenant also which of course he was bound to.

Ken, on #3 I understand that the church is Israel and therefore the chosen people. Gentiles were grafted into True Israel because of their faith in Christ. I always try to make clear that the State of Israel as we know it has no connection to the OT or NT. It is a secular state. It is not ‘Israel’ and never will be.

Matthew:
1. I agree. True sons of Abraham are those who have trusted Christ alone for salvation. GRACE not RACE.
2. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, but according to Hebrews 8:6, 13 the new is superior and the old is vanishing. So, I would say the new replaces the old. The old covenant is a “shadow” of the new. The new is fulfilled by and in Christ.
3. I guess I was approaching this in line of reasoning that some would call the Nation of Israel God’s Chosen. Maybe the question is not clear enough.
4. I am looking for any help that you guys can give. If there is a better way to ask the question, I want to ask it that way. As I understand Galatians, Abraham was justified by faith, centuries before the law was given. In my opinion, Abraham was not under the Old Covenant, but was under grace (again pointing to Jesus, Abraham’s true seed).

Matthew, thanks.

Ken, I normally don’t participate in discussions like this, but I’m feeling saucy today:
1. Yes. Judaism as we know it is a form of pharisaism; it’s rabbinic Judaism, not the religion of Israel. The real faith of Israel rests in the messiah who has already come.
2. I would say fulfilled (Sermon on the Mount, Jeremiah 31).
3. Well, if you’re a Calvinist I reckon you should say ‘Yes.’
4. There might be a more nuanced way to frame this question. Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith. I’m going to have to think more about this question.

These are some possible questions that will be asked in our Sunday Night Men’s Discipleship Training class this week, concerning our study of Galatians 4:21-31. We will also be looking at Hebrews ch. 8.

I would appreciate any input or suggestions for other questions concerning this passage concerning the two covenants.

” Can we say that any religion that doesn’t lead (point) to Jesus Christ as the sole way of salvation is a false religion? If so, what of Judaism?”

” Has the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant? Added to the Old Covenant? Come along-side the Old Covenant? Explain “

” Are the only ‘Chosen People’ of God those who are born-again believers? “

” Was Abraham under the Old Covenant? Why or why not?”

This morning after I dropped my kids at school, NPR dropped this bomb on me:

Fred Rogers died this morning of stomach cancer. He was 74.

I am not ashamed to admit I wept as I drove to work. One more kick-ass piano player in heaven, one less gentle genius on earth. I predict Mr. Rogers work will someday be considered as brilliant in his chosen genre’ as Mozart was in his.

I was too old for Mr. Rogers Neighborhood when he first started broadcasting in 1968, but when I started having children, my children watched. And that’s when I discovered the compelling beauty of his work and the rare genius of the man. What a magnificent body of work he leaves behind. And what a gentle, humble and – dare I say it – godly example he set for us all.

Goodbye, Mr. Rogers. Thanks for a thousand beautiful days.

Here’s a Fred Rogers reaction that’s worth the read, from a mom.

Judd, good call, brother. I am fuming that someone would suggest that Michael cannot read. I suggest that people who accuse Michael of illiteracy go take an English course somewhere. Good freaking grief, people!!! Maybe Eric and I can come up with a list of words for the sidebar so that those who can’t read properly can figure out what we’re talking about. Metaphor, allusion; those are two off the top of my head. This is surreal.

Scott: I agree, it isn’t worth the risk to continue to let them serve while they are being investigated.

Jake: Thank you. I think maybe we Christians need to be a little more concerned about the fact that there’s billions of people headed for Hell, than whether the word “yowm” was translated correctly in Genesis 1.

Bill MacK: On the Zero Tolerance Policy: my take is that when a priest is accused of a sex crime, they should immediately be put on the police equivelent of desk work. No active ministry. No contact with kids. Minimal public contact. Since this is a secular crime, let the secular authorities investigate. Once that investigation is complete, if the guy’s guilty, cut ‘im off from ministry. If he’s innocent, welcome him back in. Maybe I’m being a bit oversimplistic, tho.

Fred Rogers: Such a wonderful, gentle teacher. You’ll be missed, neighbor.

I’ve been thinking of the RCC pedophile priest scandal quite a bit lately. There are some things that are bothering me, but not perhaps what you might think.

1. Pedophile clergy: Protestants are in no position to throw stones here, this could happen anywhere. Some are quick to point out that enforced celibacy of the RCC clergy is what leads to this, but I think that is an oversimplified and erroneous assumption.

2. Shuffling and coverup of pedophile clergy: This is a legitimate area of criticism. This needs to be fixed and punished, even if it goes all the way to Rome.

3. Zero tolerance policy: I’m a little uneasy about this because the assumes the accuser is always right or truthful, which we know is not always the case.

4. Cash settlements to victims: This is the biggest thing that is bothering me right now. The Boston diocese (or whatever it is called) is shelling out millions of dollars in settlements to the victims of the priests. Forget for a moment whether they are entitled to this or not, my question is this:

Why is the RCC sitting on all this money?? If the Boston diocese can afford millions, the the RCC as a whole may be sitting on billions in assets. How many churches, missionaries, food program, disaster relief programs etc. could be built or supported with this kind of money? The RCC isn’t the only culprit here. I’m sure many of the big Protestant church are doing the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale. Maybe if the Christian church was doing what it should for the people of this country and world, then the government wouldn’t have to bleed us dry with taxes.

Sorry, I’m ranting. I just can’t imagine Jesus, or those who are called by His name, sitting on large sums of money for any reason. I could be wrong. I often am.

Willie Nelson is the best songwriter AND the best singer in the United States of America. I’ll take 100 Willies over a single Bono any day.

TOO SICK TO PRAY by Willie Nelson

I’ve been too sick to pray, Lord
That’s why we ain’t talked in awhile
It’s been some of them days, Lord
I thought I was on my last mile

But I’m feelin’ okay, Lord
And I’m glad that I called you today
Never needed you more
I would have called you before
But I’ve been too sick to pray

Remember the family, Lord
I know they will remember you
And all of their prayers, Lord
They talk to You just like I do

Well, I reckon that’s all, Lord
That’s all I can think of to say
And thank you, my Friend
We’ll be talkin’ again

More sacred secular music from Judd.

Susan Werner is a fantastic, classy singer on the coffeehouse circuit. Go hear her if she comes thru your town.

I Still Believe

Lewis lost his marriage when he lost his illusions
But it had been the modern-day ideal
They both worked way too hard and made love way too little
No surprise she found that San Jose had more appeal
But last night I saw Lewis walking down by the river
With a suitcase in his hand
And Lewis looked at me with eyes that were wiser and said
“I’m going there to make her understand”

That I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still

Lucy lost her parents when she lost her illusions
But they had been the family ideal
Lucy dove into the fast and shiny city
She found her feet in dancing but she lost the heart to feel much of anything
But last night I saw Lucy walking down by the river
With a husband and a brand new son
And Lucy looked at me with eyes that were wiser and said
“Who’d have thought that I would be the one?”

But I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still

Laura lost her bearings when she lost her illusions
But she had nothing much to fear
She lost her ponytail and six long months of sleeping
When the big C came to call last fall
But last night I saw Laura walking down by the river
And I could hardly hide my tears
But Laura looked at me with eyes that were wiser and said
“Wanna go with me to Italy next year?”

‘Cos I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still believe
I still believe, I still

Jim brings up a topic which is of intense interest to me. I’ll tell you why. BHTers have heard this, but some lurkers probably haven’t.

Young earth is a bitter poison pill which turned my wife away from the gospel in the 8th grade. Her zealous mother persuaded her to argue with her earth science teacher, causing shame and ridicule. If anyone here remembers what it was like to be in the 8th grade, you will remember what shame and ridicule felt like then.

Jim is fortunate. Amy was not. Because of that single incident she has spent her entire life in bitter doubt of the gospel.

People, believe what you want. But I tell you- young earth is NOT the gospel. Michael is a nice man. He correctly reminds you all that God is NOT a rock, that it is NOT better to be dead than alive. I am not so nice because I have seen what this foolishness will do.

Better a millstone tied around your neck, and you cast into the depths of the sea, than cause any little one to turn from the gospel. Because you would rather ride your fundamentalist hobby horse than LIVE AND BREATHE THE GOSPEL OF GRACE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINNERS you are doing this.

I am extremely conservative. I despise the liberal philosophy of just about everything. But people- I tell you- LIBERALS ARE NOT THE ENEMY. Indwelling sin in your members is the enemy. Learn this. Live it. Use your BRAIN for our saviour’s sake. If you are capable of reading Charles Dickens, or Larry McMurtry, or Emily Dickinson, then by God you are capable of not imposing some dumb, insane personal vendetta on HOLY SCRIPTURE.

Believe young earth, preach it, teach it if you will. But remember what I have said. I love you as a brother or sister and I will not call you a fool for what you believe. But I WILL CALL YOU A FOOL IF YOU TURN ANOTHER LITTLE ONE AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL. I will humble you and shame you at every turn for this. I despise it even more than liberal philosophy.

DENNIS MILLER is my new hero:

“If only Saddam Hussein would open an all-male country club somewhere in Iraq, so the Times could get behind this invasion.”

“The last time the French wanted more evidence, it rolled right through Paris with a German flag.”

“Sean Penn is urging restraint. How do we get Sean on board? Too bad Saddam isn’t a paparazzi.”

“I was home-schooled. Oddly enough, at a branch campus.”

“If 15 out of 19 terrorists are from one country, that’s not profiling. That’s being minimally observant.”

“Do you think they’ve got a lottery to determine which dogs will be drug-sniffing dogs and which dogs will be bomb-sniffing dogs?”

“About those 74 virgins . . . innocence is great, but wouldn’t you think after about 10 virgins, you’re gonna want a pro?”

“Every now and then we’ve got to remind these guys we’ve got the Big Portabella. I don’t say drop one on the people. Wait for a windless day and drop one out in the desert. Just remind them that you’ve got the Big Persuader.”

“What if the crop circles are really just ads for Target?”

“I come from a simpler time when palm pilot was a title you acquired upon entering puberty.”

“I was raised Catholic. I went to confession the other day. I said, ‘You first.’ “

“If you’re in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign saying that ‘Bush is Hitler,’ forget the peace thing for a second and beat his axx.”

“The only way the French are going in is if we tell them we found truffles in Iraq,”

“The French are always reticent to surrender to the wishes of their friends and always more than willing to surrender to the wishes of their enemies.”

Hugh Ross has a great ministry, and is a brilliant guy. Better at science than at Bible. To my mind, he attempts much of what the creationists do, but with a different result because he has a broader and better view of Astrophysics. (He is an astronomer, not a biologist. Quick- name a Creationist astronomer??) I enjoy his general books on Creation and Time, etc, more than his books on Genesis. He really is an original, and has been beaten up and kicked dozens of times by the creationists. Talk about misquoted!! I admire him.

I mentioned Fredrick Buechner back during the discussion of Christian authors. I just finished reading The Storm. (hope that link works…) An interesting retelling of Shakespear’s The Tempest.

Michael, where to begin? re: Robert’s quote from Alan Hayward, it’s sad that something similar won’t be coming from the Young Earth camp. I somehow can’t imagine Ken Ham making that statement. re: the passing of Fred Rogers, in a real sense his “Make-Believe” world occupies the same space in my house as Narnia, Middle Earth, and the world of Beatrix Potter’s stories. After his retirement, my youngest kids would cry everyday until we found a local PBS station that was running reruns.

I wrote a long reply to your article (largely favorable), but blogger ate it yesterday. The most damning bit of evidence against the Young Earth for me is the astrophysics. The night sky is virtually a calendar. As someone brought up wiht a strict YE approach (I failed science in the 7th grade because my father went to school to argue with the teacher on evolution), I find in myself a huge emotional attachment to the literal 7-day view, because the “slippery slope” argument was drummed into our heads (“If you don’t take Genesis 1 literally, then you end up not taking the rest of the Bible literally.”)

I tend to keep looking for the “big picture” on these, and so I’ll briefly bring up how the so-called “gramato-historical” hermenutic is at the root of both the YE/literal 7-day view and … dispensationalism. Just a quick jab to reiterate a theme I’ll keep drumming until you all drum me out: if you start with faulty hermenutics, you end up in all sorts of interesting places.

This says it all, from the article Mike referenced earlier…

{Hashem al-Iqabi, one of Iraq’s leading writers and intellectuals, had hoped the marchers would mention the fact that Saddam had driven almost four million Iraqis out of their homes and razed more than 6,000 villages to the ground.

“The death and destruction caused by Saddam in our land is the worst since Nebuchadnezzar,” he said. “These prosperous, peaceful, and fat Europeans are marching in support of evil incarnate.” He said that, watching the march, he felt Nazism was “alive and well and flexing its muscles in Hyde Park.”}

To all of you people who have sent me notes telling me the meaning of a 24 hour day in Genesis 1: Should I send you back a description of what the words “the stars fell to the earth” means in Matthew? Or what the word “rock” means when the Psalms say God is a rock? This isn’t about a dictionary. It’s about what the text is supposed to do and how it goes about doing it. The assumption that the text was MEANT to answer scientific questions doesn’t work for me, any more than the explanation of procreation I gave my son at age 4 would work in a college Biology class. The point is this: Why does the inspiration of any part of the Bible depend on its conformity to a “truth” outside of itself, IF THAT WAS NOT ITS INTENTION? When the Gospels say all Jerusalem went out to hear John the Baptist, is it failing to demonstrate inspiration if anyone didn’t go hear John? Or do we not require that level of precision from the text? When the writer of Ecclesiastes says it is better to be dead than alive, do we eliminate the book from the canon? Or do we ask why it said that- why it used that kind of expression? This is about intention, and you are free to disagree with me on my views! Please do so. But don’t tell me I can’t read or understand the words.

The amount of good done in this world by the simple lived-out Christianity of Fred Rogers boggles the mind. My kind of television evangelist. Enjoy the new neighborhood Fred.

Meanwhile, back here on earth…..

Whaaaaaaaaaaaa....

Children of American soldiers are not having a nice day in the Maine Public Schools. Don’t get one of these teachers within six feet of me.

This human shields idea has some real possibilities. Could we get up a BHT list? Multi-billionaire liar and guru Depak Chopra wants to go. Could we get Alec Baldwin? Gerofalo? Sheen? When asked about this yesterday, Rummy said “People who put themselves in dangerous places have put themselves in dangerous places.” People who want to get between the avengers of 911 and Saddam Hussein. What a way to end your life.

A great speech by the President last night, refuting every huge lie told by those who prefer torture and death for the Iraqi people.

A moment of silence for Fred Rogers, who passed away of cancer at age 74. May he eternally praise our Creator. The neighborhood will miss him.