Archive for April, 2003

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

The Dante’s Inferno Test has banished you to the Second Level of Hell!
Here is how you matched up against all the levels:

LevelScore
Purgatory (Repenting Believers)High
Level 1 – Limbo (Virtuous Non-Believers)High
Level 2 (Lustful)Very High
Level 3 (Gluttonous)Low
Level 4 (Prodigal and Avaricious)Very Low
Level 5 (Wrathful and Gloomy)Low
Level 6 – The City of Dis (Heretics)Very Low
Level 7 (Violent)Low
Level 8- the Malebolge (Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers)Moderate
Level 9 – Cocytus (Treacherous)Very Low

Take the Dante’s Inferno Hell Test

Jim N: Actually, I have it up on Ebay. Burning tends to kill the grass in my lawn. Prior to today (when I read the tract), I kept it in my computer bag. That makes you wrong on two counts. ;-> Neener neener neener!!!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Cross TV. Anyone know about this? Very cool, and check out who they endorse on the recommended reading page. Looks like some good guys.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Scott, I propose to sponsor you in a blog of your own, wherein you will post your “Chick Tracts Summary” daily. This is a serious offer. I will host the blog on xmlhead.com.

Phillip, breath deep. Rest your hands. Walk outside. Nobody should be at the keyboard that long.

Bart, I think I saw a copy of “Dungeon Master’s Guide” sticking out of Gregory’s knapsack. Call Jerry’s hotline ((434)582-2000) and report him anonymously!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

The Dante’s Inferno Test has sent you to Purgatory!
Here is how you matched up against all the levels:

LevelScore
Purgatory (Repenting Believers)Very High
Level 1 – Limbo (Virtuous Non-Believers)Very Low
Level 2 (Lustful)Moderate
Level 3 (Gluttonous)High
Level 4 (Prodigal and Avaricious)Very Low
Level 5 (Wrathful and Gloomy)Moderate
Level 6 – The City of Dis (Heretics)Very Low
Level 7 (Violent)Moderate
Level 8- the Malebolge (Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers)High
Level 9 – Cocytus (Treacherous)Low

Take the Dante’s Inferno Hell Test

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

LARKNEWS has my whole house in an uproar!!!! Link of the Decade!!!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Alex: I am less and less impressed with Relevant every day. For starters, they shamelessly promote the event known as “The Call” which is nothing but the Kansas City Prophets road show with a few kickin’ worship bands. Also, the content of the articles is usually really, really poor. I posted a few days ago a real bad piece on a worship conference. And theologically, they are up to their ears in psuedo-orthodoxy, actually gnosticism of some kind. I like some of the info on their blog, but the rest is posing as something but really consisting of nothing.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

You guys should really check this website out. It’s right up our alley.

Does anyone here subscribe to Relevant Magazine? I got the most recent issue, and I’m getting kind of tired of the weak ecclesiology, and the pseudo-Gnostic (how’s that for two Greek words) emphasis on “experiencing God” and various other gobbledygook. Though there is a gem of an article about how more kids in my generation are returning to what Relevant terms “classical orthodox Christianity…”

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Excuse me Matthew. Please edit your post. France = Freedomland.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Bart: The only reason you are making fun of Chick is you are a dirty occultist. Throw away your role playing games before the devil takes your soul. ;->

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Taize is a community in the Burgandy region of France. It was started around 1940 and has grown as a prayer “movement” involving both Catholics and Protestants. There is a lot of singing short songs, but they aren’t of the “I’m gonna throw up (my hands)” variety. They come mostly from the Psalms. Singing, prayer, and silence. It’s pretty contemplative and mystical (he he!). And, of course, the people who started it are pagan priests of the Great Whore of Babylon…oh wait! I’ve read too much Chick today, too!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Aaaaaaaahhhhh! (running around the room with hands on head, screaming) Too much Chick!!!!!

Matthew, call me ignorant, but I must ask: What is Taize?

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Ken, it’s on S. Denver. We get there from I-40 by driving down 7 past Main and hang a right on 2nd. It’s somewhere around there. We’ll be living a little further down 7 and then a left close to that big hardware store. I can’t remember the street name off the top of my head. My wife is in charge of remembering where we live ;-)

Awesome, Scott. And I thought Rigney was the resident Chick scholar.

Michael, you’ll love this. We had a conversation about healing in one of my classes today and we touched on the whole Benny Hinn thing. One of my friends said, “you know, that’s great if someone is healed of a migraine but I want to see an armless person grow two arms.” During a break another student talked to my friend about that issue. His take? “I think that healing is about to go to the next level.” The Taize thing went well. We talked about it after the prayer time was over and I was overwhelmed by a response or two. One lady said she loves the contemporary worship but that the prayer, singing, and silence of the Taize worship was more focused on God than the music or the preacher, or, or, or. I was hoping that a light would go on for everyone in this area. It’s not about performances!!!!!!!

I hope to sound like Al Martin. Or Al Green. Unfortunately, right now I probably sound like Weird Al in the pulpit.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Here is Mrs. DuToit’s analysis. (Warning- explicit language contained in the post- straight from the Texas code.

Very interesting.

And- in a related topic- the always excellent J. Budziszewski- ‘Little Platoons’

Enjoy.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Tomorrow at 7:45 a.m. I will be the speaker for the National Day of Prayer Breakfast at the county courthouse. It’s an honor for me to be asked, because our school and my church are not the “mainstream” around here. (Mainstream would be a Bapticostal howler singing “I’m Proud To Be An American,” then reading “If my people…” and preaching for 90 minutes, including a 25 minute invitation.) I’ll be a little more modest, and try to let everybody get to the food in 15 minutes.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

All: Sorry for the length of the last post.

Scott: Keep up the good work. Jack Chick will someday stand before the judgement seat and have to answer for his crimes against art and reason! 8^)

Ken: Great question, great answer. I’ll pray.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Rob: I’m not even sure we disagree on that! To me it’s not a question of whether or not it is right, just a matter of whether or not we can do it without it coming back and biting us on the collective posterior. Call it a pragmatic approach if you wish, though I don’t chafe under the label as much as the Chief Boar would like me to. That’s another topic for another day, however, so I’ll shut up about it. Suffice it so say that I think homosexuality is wrong, but that is quite a different question to my mind than whether or not it should be illegal. Lots of things are wrong but not illegal.

Be advised that I had written several long paragraphs on this topic before my computer locked up on me, so I’m now retyping more or less what I’d already typed, from memory. Poorly, I bet, since I’m so annoyed at myself for not saving early and often. Also, I encourage readers to not make the same mistake many people have made with Santorum and confuse questions of morality with questions of legality. I know you know better, Rob, but this is a popular website.

I see several issues that relate to the question of legislating morality, even tied into the topic at hand. The first of these is a question of federalism. (No, I’m not going to bring up the War Between The States again…) That is, leave aside the question of whether or not morality can or should be legislated and ask only whether or not the federal government should be able to attempt to legislate morality. In the case at hand, the law is a state one, but the federal government is being asked to overturn it. Hence Santorum’s original (and accurate) argument that there is no specific “right to privacy” within the Constitution (though the right to protection again unlawful search and seizure and the right to avoid self-incrimination come close in some ways). Of course, the Constitution enumerates the rights of the government, not of the people, so in the absence of an explicit right for Congress to legislate private morality, even a trumped-up right to privacy wins. However, while Santorum pulled a swing-and-a-miss on his specific legal argument, there is still a way the feds could get involved on the question of equal protection. The Texas law specifically prohibits the act only between two men and not the same act between a man and a woman. It is therefore argued that the law singles out a certain group or class of people, and is therefore illegal.

This leads to several questions, such as whether the act is even the same if performed with a woman. The most obvious answer is yes, it is, as can be seen by substituting a race for a gender. Any law which prohibits any act between members of different races while not forbidding it between members of the same race (or vice-versa) is clearly illegal. While the desire to commit the act in question may be self-select or voluntary (another debatable point, though not debated by me), legally that is not the issue. The argument is that the act should be illegal entirely for anyone or not at all, but certainly not just for two people who happen to be men. On the federalism issue, this line of reasoning can be seen to result in a clear case for the federal government to get involved without violating the Constitution, and to do so without explictly recognizing any inherent rights for a lifestyle that many people consider a choice and therefore not worthy of special protection.

Secondly is the distinction between public and private morality. Let’s say the federal government isn’t an issue and we’re discussing this on purely a local level. I am trying to be careful here in what I describe since some people might consider this a family blog (ha!), so please bear with me. There are many acts that are legal in private but not in public. Public nudity, for example, is illegal in most locales, as are (obviously given the prohibition of nudity) most public sex acts. Yet nudity and an assorted half-dozen or so of those acts are quite legal (and welcome) at my house. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader (and my wife) to guess the half-dozen to which I’m referring. Don’t strain too hard. 8^)

The general argument for this is that there is some harm to others. Theft obviously results in economic harm to the person from whom goods are stolen (we’ll leave intellectual property concerns alone today). Prostitution is generally argued in most (though as you point out, not all) places to not really be a victimless crime though it seems to be at first blush. Even so, prostitution that takes place in private is different from people walking the streets undressed or committing their acts in public. Polygamy has a long and complicated history and practice that makes it difficult to separate inherent harms from common harms, but generally it is (or at least was when the laws were passed) considered to be harmful to the (usually young) women involved. Still, consensual bigamy or polygamy is different from the common modern variety of simple fraud, where one wife doesn’t know about the other. Anyway, I could go point by point, but the general idea here is that each of these laws is considered to protect somebody. Women and children shouldn’t have to see public nudity (so goes the thinking), so public nudity is against the law. Private nudity is just fine. Public drunkennes is verboten, while you can drink yourself into a three-day stupor at home with no (legal) problems.

A community can and does indeed dictate many rules. All of which normally apply to things visible to the community. In some areas, you can’t paint your house certain colors or keep a Vietnamese pot-bellied pig in your yard or have more than three cars up on blocks in the front yard. These things all presumably lower the property values of your neighbors homes. But dressing up in…wait, self-editing… But whatever practices you undertake in your bedroom are your business, so long as you keep the blinds closed.

Various court cases have even address whether or not you can be nude in your own yard on your own property, with mixed results. If it is a question there, surely it is even less of a question inside your own home with the door shut. That’s the part that rankles most people and makes me nervous. These two guys weren’t committing a lewd act on the front porch. They were in their bedroom with the window shut, and cops came looking for them because a neighbor put two and two together and inferred that they must be violating the law and called in a false police report. Nothing was witnessed by anybody until the cops acted on that neighbor’s report of an armed man “going crazy” and busted into the apartment in the middle of the night and interrupted the defendants. As far as I’m concerned, it really doesn’t matter what they were doing, so long as it was in private and nobody was being coerced.

Obviously nobody has any right to satisfy their desires or lusts or deviancies in any way that affects somebody else against their will. That is true even to the point that I have legal protection against even seeing someone without clothes on.

So let’s assume that the law is changed to prohibit the act regardless of who is committing, keeping within Constitutional bounds. Let us further assume that the law is even more local than the entire state of Texas and that it only applies to a particular municipality. Let us further assume that even though I can’t find a strong Biblical basis for prohibiting either of the acts covered by this law (please don’t read too much into that statment, it’s a theoretical statement, okay?), the vast majority of Christians agree that certain acts are unbiblical. Do the good people of Onanville (or wherever) then have the right or obligation to vote to establish a law against those acts even within your own home?

Because we’re talking about something the Bible singles out several times as a sin worth paying special attention to (not unique by any means, but worth more attention than, say, walking too far on the Sabbath), I want to say, “Yes.” But then I consider the hypothetical possibility of my community agreeing that I shouldn’t be allowed to jump rope inside my house, and I wonder why on earth I would want a mob to have that much power.

Most people don’t want to live next to someone who practices deviant sexual behavior – I’ll grant that. I also suspect most people would be surprised at the extent of the deviancy that goes on in many homes that they would never expect, but my real response is that I don’t want to live next to someone who is so self-righteous that they lay awake at nights wondering just exactly how it is I’m making my wife so happy all the time and whether or not they should call the cops on me. Sadly, no laws protect me, and I live across the street from just such a person right now.

Obviously I realize that there are special Constitutional protections for religion in America, but I mentioned the zoning rules for a reason – it has become quite popular in SoCal to use them as an excuse for God-haters to shut down any religious meetings they don’t like. They don’t even have to be harmed in any way, they just have to complain that they’re bothered, and the letters go out and it is shut down. Again, it’s people who lay awake at night worrying about what other people do instead of getting on with life. It’s the same darn thing, and I don’t like it when it’s used against Christians, so I’m not sure why I should support it when it is used against people who sin differently than I do.

I do understand your point, that local communities should be able to set a certain standard. I wish your argument didn’t bring to mind a scene from Raisin In The Sun where a guy shows up and offers Sidney Poitier’s family more money for their new house than they just paid to buy it to settle the whole thing peacefully, but I know that’s not your intent, and I know that being born black is quite a different thing from growing up gay. I just don’t know that local communities can set a standard on private behavior without having too much power. I’d honestly be happier (again, this is a legal argument, not a moral one at this point) with laws prohibiting public displays of affection among any couples than laws prohibiting private behavior of any kind.

And I’m just coming off two days in a row home from work sick, so I might be a little incoherent as well. Please forgive. And I promise, Michael, that I’ll work up my objections to your over-dismissiveness of “pragmatism” later. 8^)

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

The Next Chick Tract: “In the Beginning”

This lovely piece of literature opens with a couple of fellows in a room or office of some type. One of the fellows, who we learn 3 pages into the story is named “Jason”, is proudly showing “Bob” from our previous experience his model of a dinosaur. Bob is obviously a learned man, because he’s using a computer, and is referred to by Jason as “Computer man” and “smart guy”. Jason claims that his model is over 145 million years old. Bob, obviously the wise sort, realizes that plastics weren’t created 145 million years ago, and prepares to use the Bible to prove it.

First, Bob covers Day One, “Let there be light”, and states, quite clearly, there was no big bang. This causes Jason to have a brain hemorrage on the spot.



After detailing the creation narrative, straight from the King “He Wasn’t Gay” Jimmy Version, Jason is feeling his brain reeling. Obviously from the blood now rushing out of the blood vessel that burst right after “Let there be light”. Bob continues to encourage Jason’s immenent death by showing him pictures of the Glen Rose, TX footprints. And since humans and dinosaurs could have never, in 6 billion years, walked on the same spot of ground, Jason continues his spiral towards his immenent demise.

Bob continues to take Jason through the first 4 chapters of Genesis (KJV) so that, by the time our pal Jason shuffles loose this mortal coil on the last page, he’s on his knees and joining the Independent Baptists, since no one who believes in anything but the KJV and the literal account of creation will be in Heaven.

His place by the throne secure, Jason dies. Or at least I assume he does. Bob wasn’t running too quick to call 911 or anything.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Matthew: Know what I liked about it? (JN) I liked the “Last Great Emperor” line. Didn’t the Roman Empire go on for another 150 years? And what about the Byzantine Empire. I think in the next 1,250 years or so, they’d have had a leader that was a little better than “mediocre”.

I also like the fact that Constantine set himself up as pope. I mean, when I look up the list of popes, Sylvester I was bishop of Rome. Constantine I doesn’t pop up until the 8th Century. So, either Constantine saw a Looney Tunes cartoon 1,700 years before anyone else did, and admired the cat enough to name himself after it – or Constantine was giving Methuselah a run for his money. Either way, I’m impressed.

Either way: More Scott Ward Chick Tract Translations® to Come!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

I think Jack has A-LOT of freudian crap going on here, projection for one…

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Matthew: Remind of the location of the Methodist Church in Russellville, where you will be serving.
Also, what part of town will you be living in?

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Damn That JRR Tolkien, this is all his fault!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

You know what else I like about that tract (JN)? What do we have to start with? Hmmm, a whiskey-swilling, suicidal priest. Also, when you get down to the history he says that in AD 350 Satan had a counterfeit church, a counterfeit bible, and a counterfeit god (the pope). Hmmm. Jackie, there was no “Roman Catholic Church” in AD 350. The church was still unified. There was no pope in AD 350. There were five patricarchs and the bishop of Rome was considered first among equals. Counterfeit Bible? The only Bible I know of that is still grossly inaccurate in some places is the King Jimmy (who, by the way, was a sodomite). I also didn’t realize that the world plunged into the Dark Ages in AD 375 as Chickey suggests. He also says that the Inquisition started in 1200. Well, I mean, he is only off by like a couple…hundred years. Have you ever wondered who “Bob” is? He’s the Christian hero in many Chick tracts. I have a feeling that “Bob” is what Jackie looked like about 40 years ago. Kinda like Rembrandt painting himself into his paintings…only Chicky is as close to being Rembrandt as I am to being William Wallace.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Love this line: Happy Good Friday, everyone. I’ve never liked calling it Good Friday. It’s such a sad day.

That came from someone’s livejournal that I came across while being bored over at BlogsforGod. I wanted to laugh when I read it thinking that it could have come from Monty Python or something. Ugh!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

What if Dan Huff played for Evie back in the 70’s and 80’s?

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Speaking of good ol’ Jack Chick, his newest tract is on his website. “Man in Black”, to my surprise, is not a reprinting of Johnny Cash’s classic tune, nor of One Bad Pig’s cover of that tune. It tells the delightful, lighthearted tale of a RCC priest, Father Damien, apparently on hiatus from his duties as the antichrist in “The Omen”, who wants to jump off of a bridge, into the crashing water below. No, kids, he’s not practicing for the Olympic high-dive. He’s apparently pissed at his religion, but doesn’t know why (and never addresses it). Apparently, what he needs is an attentive Fundamentalist named “Bob” to call the RCC the “Whore” multiple times and tells Father Damien that he’s going to hell.

That’ll convert him, Bob. Fortunately, Damien is too mad to jump, and decides to quiz Mr. Bob on his comment that the RCC was a Whore, that he was going to hell, and that the pope is a poopy head. Bob informs him, over the next 149 pages of the tract, that the RCC is directly related to Nimrod and Semiramis from ancient Babylon, complete with references to other books by Chick and company to back up his facts.

Apparently, the “last great Emperor of Rome”, Constantine, claimed to be a Christian. Apparently, Constantine set himself up as pope and accepted the re-written Bible with joy. On and on the story goes, complete with a picture of a glasses-wearing pope surrounded by a priest, a constipated Secret Service agent, a clansman, a short Conehead, and a pro wrestler.



Sadly, as you can see, there are no Masons, Rosicrucians, Jews, Muslims, or aliens present. There are also no black, Asian, or Australian people. There are also no chicks. As a true patron of modern ethics, Jack confirms the theory that only old, crusty white men are going to hell.

Bob ends his story with a brief history of the inquisition, and a couple of comments about pedophilia. Damien, convinced by such a well-researched theologian such as Bob, immediately joins the local Independent Baptist church. The tract ends with the classic “Pray this prayer on this tract to get to Heaven”, complete with a detailed questionaire (Did you accept Jesus as your personal Savior?). Instructed to read the KJV every day, we are encouraged to tell more people about Jesus by leaving tracts around that tell the real story of the RCC.

Thus ends today’s summary of the latest Jack Chick tract. More fun to come!

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

I’ll buy you a Whattaburger for asking that question.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

“I’d like a beer!”

“We don’t have any beers. Only tequila.”

“What’s tequila?”

“It’s like beer.”

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Evangelism: What do you folks think of about asking a co-worker, friend, etc. the following question ?

Question: Do you deserve to go to hell?

In the breakroom, at noon today, the discussion turned to Sen. Santorum’s remarks about homosexuality. A lady, who was raised in the Catholic faith, but no longer attends any church was asking about God’s judgment upon that particular sin. I just sat back and let the Freewill Baptist, the Church of Christ, and the Assembly of God folks who were present respond. I then made a passing remark about greed, lust, gluttony, gossip, and a few other sins being judged just as severely as homosexuality. The lady said she had some serious questions, but no-one offered to listen to her.

After lunch, I walked to her desk and asked if she was serious about her comment of having questions about spiritual matters. She said that she had questions about God’s judgment upon certain sins, such as the ones we named around the lunch table. She said that she realized that all sins were sinful in God’s eyes. I told that was the reason that Jesus become a man, lived a perfect life, submissive to the complete will of God the Father, and died on the cross for sinners, like ME.

I then asked her this question. ”(Her name here), do you deserve to go to hell?” She got a very strange look on her face, and she told me “No”. I told her that I did deserve to go to hell because of my sins. But I told that I was trusting that my sins were forgiven because of Christ’s death on the cross on my behalf. I told her that if my salvation depended upon my goodness, “then I ain’t gonna make to heaven.” My only hope of God’s forgiveness is the upon the work of Christ.

Please pray for me, as I will further discuss this with her.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Angus is pleased with this humor.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

This is too bad but I hope no one makes too big a deal of this. Casino-Hotel says “No thanks” to Gideons

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Gregory: That drawing so looks like a chick’s tract – A Dixie Chicks tract

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

Rob: If you take a statement that I described as an “old saying” and apply it specifically to the question of sodomy laws, then yes, the statement possibly doesn’t apply very closely. However, my point had not so muich to do with sodomy laws specifically as with the selective enforcment of pervasive laws in general. The principle (and saying) relate to dictatorial regimes like the Nazi or Stalin’s regime. The idea is that people ignore the laws as they are passed one after another on the grounds that they aren’t being enforced and so can be ignored (something I’ve heard often applied to laws here in the US), but they are still on the books and could still be enforced if someone chose. Eventually, someone does. Someone always does.

So that was my answer, as one Texas resident, to Jim’s question of “why hasn’t there been a public outcry against” Texas sodomy laws. Not because “the majority of people in Texas actually believe that homosexual acts should be illegal,” but because the majority of people assumed the laws either didn’t exist or would never be enforced.

Your statement that ”[i]t prohibits a specific act that the community has agreed is intolerable” begs a few follow-up questions: Was the law in fact put into place after the community had expressed its collective opinion through some sort of popular vote? Has the community in question been polled at this time to see what its collective opinion is now? And most importantly in my book, Do you really want your community to decide have the power to decide that things you do within the privacy of your own home are intolerable to them and have the backing of law?

In a country in which home Bible studies are prohibited in some areas (ostensibly due to “traffic concerns”), and a world in which Christianity is illegal in some countries, it worries me that anyone would accept this standard of majority rule over private choices.

If that’s too extreme, or I’ve once again stepped one step beyond a close analogy, consider this: Would you like to have your bedroom recreation monitored to ensure that you don’t adopt a position that your community has decided is intolerable? The Texas law is actually particularly egregious in terms of American Constituional protections as it specifically prohibits sodomy only between two members of the same gender. A man and a woman can commiit exactly the same act legally, while two men cannot. Many people see that as a violation of the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution, and I can’t say that I really disagree. Odd, that laws would apply to behavior the cops had to break down the door to witness. I’d see a bit more sense in laws prohibiting holding hands and kissing in public, myself.

What I’d like to see is Christians spending less time trying to legislate or adjudicate moral issues and more time living well enough that people want to emulate us instead of the other way around. When our marriages last no longer and are no more successful than those of our non-Christian neighbors, or our children are no more well-behaved, why are we surprised that the people around us don’t think of us as a good source of information on life?

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

“Just lie down on the floor, young missie.”
“Son: you got a panty on your head.”
“Do you have anything besides Mexican food?”
“My little buttercup, has the sweetest…eh-smile, eh-smile!”

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003

I just finished listening to the Al Martin Sermon that Judd linked to earlier. It has been a great deal of time since I have been so strongly moved. Truly I need to reevaluate the way I interact with my kids.

Wednesday, April 30th, 2003



Michael: Given my feelings about the frailty of human beings, including our mental abilities, I believe we try to put God in one box or another. As such, I believe there are elements of Calvanism and Arminianism in the ultimate Truth. Once we take away the caricatures, I find that we are actually agreeing on many, if not most, of the points we argue, leading the argument into the arena of semantics.

Bart: You need to look at this site: Temple of the Black Jesus.