Michael: I can’t help it. Your 3:05pm comment reminds me of a skit from last weekend’s MadTV (probably a rerun). It featured “Oprah’s Doctor Phil Housecalls” and the first couple he “counseled” involved a singularly unattractive man married to a gorgeous but dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks model-type woman. The man was complaining, and Oprah’s Dr Phil said to him, “You’re living every man’s dream. You’ve found a beautiful stupid woman!”

I admit, my biggest problem with bigamy or polygamy is that I can’t even keep one woman happy all the time, and my wife isn’t nearly the problem personality that Rachel would be. Compulsive behavior runs in my family, I think I could handle that much.

And blondes “aren’t my type.”

On XP: A driver is a specific type of software related to a physical device, like a video card, sound card, network card, etc. Safe mode loads only very basic drivers that don’t enable the advanced features of those devices. If you run Windows Update, does it suggest any more recent drivers for your hardware?

Matthew: I will respond, but I’m buried in geek stuff today, so I can’t think theologically too clearly right now. I’ll try later.

Really Phillip. Just the thought of the obsessive compulsive woman accompanied by the progressively insane one….. It’s creepy. Phoebe is perfect. Attractive, fun, chatty, and so clueless senility won’t even be noticed. Plus she would be a major hit at any church fellowship with those great songs. Can’t you just see her on the Praise and Worship Team?

Greetings from Crashtown, USA. Thanks for the AV recommendation, Phillip. Looks good, though some English errors makes me wonder who wrote the page! Noel’s system continues to crash about once every 30 minutes no matter what changes I make. It has never crashed in safe. OCA always reports back a driver, but the last 3 or 4 crashes have not logged in the System info log. ??? I am about to do a repair install of XP, and see where that gets me. Pray I make some progress. Noel is really discouraged that her new computer is such a lemon and I feel helpless. Adios. (Don’t buy Alex a drink unless he explains the Trinity.)

Richard: I was never asked the question! But my answer is both Monica and Rachel. (I’m still trying to get somebody to respond to the polygamy question…)

And generally speaking, French Canadians have all of the bad qualities of the French (disregarding the recent unpleasantness, in which I generally defend the French, much to my chagrin), and don’t even have unique good food or fashion sense to help counter that!

Really, I suspect it comes from being a Californian growing up and the natural animosity of a young Californian for arch-rival in all things France, extended to French Canadians as a pale initiation of their masters. See, I can’t help it! It’s in my blood! Nothing personal, really.

Speaking of Montreal, Baseball, and French guys – How about this Eric Gagne guy with the Dodgers. Should get the Cy Young.

Welcome Bruce. This is a fun place. We look forward to your perspectives. Now here’s an analytical question for you: Monica, Rachel or Phoebe? (new guys get asked this as an initiation rite. I didn’t understand the question, way back, because I’m the token foreigner around here – and because I don’t watch much TV)

How about those Expos!!! Gotta love ‘em. They have the lowest payroll in MLB (I think), they play home games on the road, they play their “real” home games in a giant toilet bowl, nobody comes to see them – and yet they play with guts and pride and are currently 1.0 game out in the NL wildcard race.

Phillip you wrote: “I may learn to like a frog canuck after all, something I never thought would happen” (emphasis yours). Thanks for the endorsement – really. Now I would really like to explore your (oft stated) surprise at liking someone (me) of my particular ethnic/cultural background. Why so surprised? I’m curious – really! Why do you expect to dislike French Canadians/Quebecers? Was it a bad experience in the past? Some stereotype? I’m not trying to start an argument! I’m really interested.

Welcome to the new guys. I’d buy you a drink, but then that would get Michael in trouble.

Bruce: Where are you in SoCal? I’m in Irvine.

Great writing over at The Onion recently: “Burning Man is about being part of a community. Unfortunately, it’s a community of people who can’t get up before 1 p.m.”

Phillip, I understand their argument and appreciate your willingness to question the beliefs you and I hold to be true in this kind of discourse. I think we’ll both benefit from this kind of mental exercise.

I’m not sure if I am heading back down a road we have already covered so let me know if we have covered this. It appears that the Father and the Son are clearly distinguishable in the New Testament. The Father sends Jesus, He gives Jesus power, etc. (John 12:44-49; 17:18-25). This is Oden’s argument, that “we cannot come away from these NT texts saying that God is at one time Father and at another time Son, but eternally both – distinguishable yet equal” (Oden, The Living God, p. 199)

Here’s where I need help, will an OP say that sure their roles are clearly distinguishable but that doesn’t mean they are separate persons? Hebrews 1-8 makes clear that Jesus was sent by God and is seated at the right hand of the throne of majesty. At the right hand of whom? Now, I haven’t read far enough to see what arguments might lie ahead, but I welcome them to help me thin through these things.

I have some questions as well: Did God leave heaven when He became incarnate? Is God still absent in heaven while the Holy Spirit is down here, at work in His Children? Omnipresence isn’t going to cut it when it comes to the incarnation because Jesus was clearly not everywhere during the incarnation, nor was He immutable because He grew (physically changed) from a baby to an adult.

Just some more ponderings. I still think OP’s are wrong. Along with Pat Robertson ;-)

Michael: This just in, I’ve seen a recommendation for Avast, an AVG-like freeware antivirus program. It specifically mentions XP, so it might be better than AVG in that regard. It shouldn’t hurt to give it a try, at least.

From the Is Your God Big Enough department, we should note that Allah has a blog now.

Matthew: Since I’m a firm believer in the Trinity, I’ll probably do a poor job of answering your points, but I’ll try to play the heretic’s advocate and see if I can answer your points about the divinity of Jesus.

My email correspondent would say that Oden is actually supporting the oneness view when he says that Scripture clearly ascribes to Jesus attributes that only God can have. That is, obviously then Jesus must be God, not someone else. As my quote below reveals, he thinks of Jesus as fully God, not just a mode or “hat” God is wearing. He takes the “God became flesh and dwelt among us” to mean that the one and only God took on the form of a man and dwelt among us Himself. How? Well, God is omnipresent, see, so he can be fully on His throne and fully embodied in the form of Jesus at once.

Interestingly, when you chase this down in the details, it becomes more and more difficult to distinguish it from the traditional view of the Trinity. In the end, it seem that they believe in God-as-three-persons, since they’ll acknowledge that God (Christ) still has His regenerated earthly body and coexists with God (Father) and so on. In that sense, it almost seems like a semantic difference. But in another sense, I’m just so uncomfortable with the bull-headed insistence on “oneness” when it clearly is not the most straightforward way to read various passages that I’m bothered and think that I must be missing some deep dark secret.

Put another way, either I’m wrong or they’re wrong, but one of us is definitely wrong. Obviously, I think it is them. The fact that the positions seem in many ways so close just means that it should be relatively easy for them to acknowledge to truth and come on over to finally understanding what those niggling triune details mean. :)

P.S. I added each of your email addresses from the sidebar to my whitelist, and I was rewarded with 14 emails from SoBig.F, all pretending to have come from you guys. Sigh.

I have spent a few days reading about the doctrine of the Trinity and have decided to spend the rest of the year reading and learning what I can about this particular doctrine. I’m in the process of buying Wolfhart Pannenberg’s 3 vol. Systematic Theology and I know there’s some good stuff in there about the Trinity.

I have spent most of my time thus far reading about the Son and one point that Tom Oden makes exceedingly clear is that Scripture clearly ascribes to Jesus attributes that only God can have (not just in Johannine lit., either). Since Jesus is God then there is no way that Jesus was just a form, hat, or mode of God. By saying that Jesus was one of the “modes” of God these folks are stripping Jesus of his eternality and making him something less than “very God”. The same case can be made for the Father and the Spirit since Scripture also ascribes the attributes of God to them as well.

I still have a lot of reading to do (Gregory of Nyssa, Athanasius, etc.) but I am becoming even more convinced of the Trinity every day.

Tim: I didn’t send you email. Were I to do so, I would add your addy to my spamarrest list first, so you would never see a spamarrest email from me. What likely happened based on what you’ve said is that SoBig.F sent me a message with your “From” address on it, so my auto-spam-filter responded to you asking you to prove who you are. Fortunately, you’re a smart cookie, and didn’t play the game. I’ll definitely add all of the Fellows’ addresses to my whitelist later today. The iMonk and a couple of others are on there now, so I get spoofed SoBig.F emails from “them” already. Sigh.

Judd: It’s a screensaver. You probably know that and are jerking my chain, but it’s been a long week, so I’ll bite. :)

Bruce: Welcome! It’s nice to have another SoCal person on the board (though I’m now a Texas, I still feel an affinity) and also another person not still in their 30s (or younger).

Michael: Is installing Win2K a possibility? I’m skittish of XP. (This would be a perfect opportunity for Scott to start listing all of the reasons why my skittishness is unfounded and counter-productive, and why XP is the best ever, and how all of his warts went away after upgrading to XP, and…)

On Oneness: I let the subject drop though I was still conversing with my email correspondent (which reminds me, I owe him an email). But the point I am frankly at a loss to address at this point is that his blanket answer to just a short list of passages I sampled at random which clearly describe three people is that Jesus and Christ are two separate beings. That is, that Jesus was a man, and God within him was Christ, so when Jesus prayed “Not My will but Yours” He wasn’t praying to Himself, but rather Jesus was praying to Christ. Or something really confused like that. I’m probably getting it wrong, because it’s been a long week, so I’ll quote from my email. From me:

If I understand you correctly, you’re essentially stating that there is some separation between Jesus and Christ, right? That is, Jesus was fully human, while the Christ within him was fully God (the Father)? So that Jesus was sometimes speaking as Christ (when he claimed full deity) and sometimes as Jesus (when he spoke of the Father in the third person form)?

Yes, essentially.
I am saying that the flesh man Jesus was the Son of God being conceived by the Spirit, and at the same time, because of that same Spirit that was in Him, completely God.

In the course of all of this, he has completely glossed over the third person of the Trinity, stating at one point only that the dove descending at Jesus’ baptism was for John’s benefit or something like that.

Anyway, I said all of that to say this: I believe this is wrong, though it sounds more like a traditional view of the Trinity than I expected (the emails I excerpted above are the exception). But while completely wrong, I still don’t think I see it as heretical. Are some oneness people complete heretics? Sure, especially since oneness is usually associated with some other bizarre things like salvation-by-works and so on. And certainly I don’t think the oneness types tend to be among the more analytical, but rather hang out with the Left Behind fans on the not-bothered-thinking-it-all-through scale (sorry, that’s mean, I take it back, sort of). But I think I’m going to have to differ with Michael on this one, too, and stop short of calling oneness (at least as my emailer describes it) as heresy.

BTW, I tried using the presuppositional tactic of assuming that my emailer was right and seeing if I could read the Scriptures a different way. I was surprised to find how many of them, even on the CARM list, actually could be sort-of-resolved that way. In the end, however, a bunch could not. Oh well, at least it served to demonstrate for me why some people believe this. If you ignore certain passages, it can make sense! :)

The Oneness quote (below) is typical of what one will hear these days from TDJ and others. (CARM, btw, has a good section of responses to Oneness Pentecostals.) To see correctly, start here, with the Biblical material, and see what we are talking about isn’t semantics. It is plainly one God, three different and separate persons. Now, look at this excellent graphic, and compare with the quote below, and you will see the problem. Not one God in three modes or disguises or “hats”, but one God who is and always was three persons.

New BHT member J.S. Bangs has this well done blog. Welcome J.S. and Bruce.

From a lurker:

Hi. I often enjoy reading the articles on your site and was browsing the BHT today, and came across a bunch of posts relating to oneness and the Trinity. One in particular confused me, and I was hoping you could clarify:

“He robed himself in flesh and came down to Earth in the from of a man. Jesus was the Father in Creation, the Son in Redemption and IS the Holy Ghost in the Church. And these three are one. Three offices and one deity. An egg has three parts, the shell, the white and the yoke. Yet, they are not three eggs.”

Thanks,
John

First time I’ve seen this on a site: “BaseballJump reserves the right to recover the greater of (1) actual damages or (2) $10 per e-mail item received, plus attorney’s fees and costs for the transmission of unsolicited commercial e-mails to any recipients of the BASEBALLJUMP.COM domain. Use of this web site and/or the domain BASEBALLJUMP.COM in electronic messages constitutes acceptance of this policy.”

Contend 4 the Faith . This is a good one.

The Linux box is working. I will have lots of questions, so you guys better hide. Question one. How do I get this box on my wireless internet? The XP box crashed less, but still crashed last night. I have started removing major software now. I found that I had not installed the software for the wireless unit on that computer, so I did that. Maybe that was the problem? Today I will keep chopping away until I reinstall XP itself. Then if that doesn’t work, I will swap out memory chips tomorrow. And then I will send it off with her to college- a lemon. (And I still have no AV software that I trust. Now I assume all AV software=crash crash crash crash) I couldn’t be more frustrated with XP right now. If I were installing exotic hardware or software I could see this, but my computer use is so bland. It’s silly to have to put up with all this.

One of OBI’s best friends, Dr. A.B. Colvin, died yesterday. When I think about what kind of man I would like to be, Dr. Colvin is my idea. He was a man who rejoiced in Christ, and rejoiced in finding his own joy in the work of God. he spent his life in pursuit of that Joy as a pastor and denominational servant. He spent the majority of his ministry being the kind of denominational guy who knew how to encourage the ordinary pastor. Everyone in Kentucky Baptist life loved A.B. He was Assistant to the President of OBI for many years after his retirement from the KBC, an though he was rarely on our campus, he represented us before thousands of audiences through the years. Perpetually laughing, encouraging, praying, rejoicing. A man you could always listen to in or out of the pulpit and come away happier. He never met a stranger, and treated everyone with respect and kindness. When Dr. Moore- our previous President- died, Dr. Colvin kept things going till we got an interim. We will miss him. His funeral will be at Southern Seminary Chapel, a fitting tribute to a man who made earth and heaven a bit more wonderful. A marvelous window to the joy that is in Jesus. Many prayers for his wife and family.

Welcome Bruce, from another ananlytical guy! Did Michael tell us you were coming? I don’t remember. We’d have cleaned up the place a little for you.

Welcome, Bruce.

Dacia is a very lovely name. I’m sure she was a lovely person. I immediately like anyone who would name their child after a province of Rome.

Welcome Bruce,,

I’m kind of new myself so just dismiss what I say.. other than welcome..

No Monty Python jokes from me!!

I was born in ‘48, a year more notable for the death of Babe Ruth and Israel regaining statehood. From the beginning I knew and believed what I was being told: That I was a sinner, that Jesus atoned for my sin, and that as a result of this I would live forever, one day seeing God face to face. As it turns out, God made me analytical and when I think, I perceive that God takes pleasure in it. I live in Southern California where I work as a programmer for a defense contractor. I have been married for 30 years to Deborah, who actually knows how to live and feel things, as opposed to myself who only knows how to analyze. I have 4 kids from the age of 33 down to 21. One of them, Dacia, was killed in winter of 2000 by a drunk driver. That has become a defining moment in my life. It ended it actually, at least as I had known life. Life is sprouting again, but in a very different form. A year ago, I enrolled at Westminster Theological Seminary, in California, where I hope to eventually graduate with an MDiv.

Update: It appears that uninstalling AVG made a difference, though the computer has crashed since, apparently on screen saver. I have uninstalled AVG (and she has to have an anti-virus on the box when she goes to college Saturday, so I don’t know what I will do.) I have unchecked a number of things in msconfig, including something running constantly in the background related to the CD burning software that showed up in a couple of error reports in system information. I have been working in Safe mode and have never crashed in safe mode. OCA has returned one report and said- as usual- driver, but at this point the only added driver is Kazaa lite, the wireless unit and WMP 9. I have very little time to work with this the next couple of days, so I may start asking for phone advice. But so far- progress. We burned a cd, which had been impossible.

In the meantime, I bought a cheap monitor, installed a new HD in my old PIII, and am installing Redhat Linux 9 as I type a few feet away. It’s a beautiful sight. I will learn how to use that computer. I enjoyed Knoppix for several hours this afternoon, and it doesn’t look over my head. So you Linux guys, stand by for thousands of geeky questions. Got to spend a great few hours with Noel running errands doing all this, which was great for dad who is starting to get emotional about Saturday’s trip to college.

Some commentary overheard on Brothers Judd blog:

Driving to work today there was a car with three bumper stickers (VT plates, of course):

It’s an interesting case of line-drawing, especially since Senator Kerry supports partial-birth abortion. Can you shake them for the first few hours or days?

The eternal wisdom of the Japanese

Silly me, I seem to have survived a long time without this webshots thingamajiggy. Still have no idea what it does from all your posts.

Half-Life, however, I am sure I would die without. How any computer runs without this critical program being installed is beyond me.

Oh yes, I forgot the Spam song,,,

‘ello mom, ‘heres a dead bishop on the landin’.
wwawww what ‘is diocese?

Crap, now I have Python on the brain.

Everybody Now!

Spam, spam, spam, spam
Spam, spam, spam, spam
Spam, spam, spam, spam
Spammity Spaaaaaaam!

Tim, I did not send you any email, nor, do I suspect, did anyone else from BHT. What is happening is that the Internet sucks. You are witnessing it first hand. I am about to give up to the suckitude, and turn off the SMTP listeners on XMLHead for a while. Oh, and my conspiracy theory about viruses and worms is that they are authored by programmers on the payroll at Norton and Network Associates (who own McAffee), and are part of a marketing campaign.

Phillip,
I got an email from you asking me to download something, I believe it said spamarrest, I deleted it.
I also got a bunch of other emails that may or may not have come from people here at Boarshead, I deleted them also. It would be nice if anyone sends an email to someone here if they add Boarshead or BH in the subject line, that way we know it is legit and not an autogenerated virus type thing.

I am a member of various discussion groups and it gets hard to filter and keep straight who is who. Many of the emails could have come from elsewhere, but I did open the one from Phillip because I recognized the addy.

I have never had a virus, but I once had some real bad pizza that made me sick for days..

Scott: Again, not to argue for the sake of arguing, but just for the sake of hapless Googlers who end up here searching for “Webshots spyware” or some such thing, Webshots does not download other programs. In fact, Webshots itself downloads nothing at all, ever. If you use your web browser to download compressed images in .wbz format, Webshots is registered as the handler for those data files and will automatically extract the images from them and put them in the appropriate place on disk, but it downloads absolutely nothing itself (except for, as I mentioned earlier, the information needed to let the user know new images are available). Webshots requires you to use the web browser to download images for several reasons, at least one of which is that banner ads are one of their two main sources of revenue. The other is premium subscribers, like me. I think they also sell collections of images on CD, but I’ve got a high-speed link, so I’ve never looked closely.

Finally, I’ve never used password protection on my screen saver, so I hadn’t encountered the security hole you linked. However, I just tested with Webshots 2.0 (currently in beta) and it does not use its own password routine as the previous version did, but instead relies on windows password security, and so is not any more easily defeated than MS’s own screen savers.

Of course, it’s a beta program, which probably violates (and should probably violate) another company policy, so we are at an impasse. :)

Amusingly, while visiting the web page to check which version I’ve got and whether it is still beta, I noted the following text on the Webshots download page:

The Webshots Desktop software DOES NOT contain any spyware!

The Webshots Desktop software does not contain spyware of any kind. It does not install any tracking software on your system, or collect personal information about you and your browsing habits.

Anyway, thanks for forcing me to investigate some of this. I really feel more than ever that my $30 2-year premium membership was a good investment. ;)

SoBig sucks. It has made scanning my spam-traps for false positives too difficult to be worth the effort. Ugh.

Matthew: Sobig-F is a self-distributing bug that loads up mailboxes and mail servers with messages that contain the virus. The virus gets onto your PC through e-mail or through just being on the Internet and finding your computer over various ports. It then scans your computer for e-mails, contacts, documents, and cached web pages, scouring for e-mail addresses. It then sets up its own little e-mail server on your computer and sends itself to every single one of those addresses. Since I’m a webmaster for a widely-seen local website, I’ve seen lots of occurrances of this thing. Over the weekend, from 5pm Friday until 7:45am Monday, I received 4,453 e-mails, of which 4,451 were Sobig. Fortunately, we’ve got a firewall blocking the ports Sobig uses AND we’ve got a virus scanner that scans every ounce of traffic we receive AND we’ve got virus scanners on our servers AND on our desktops. It hasn’t actually gotten in, but it has tried to overload our mail server, which, fortunately, is a Dual Pentium 4 w/ Hyperthreading and a Gig of memory and a snotload of drive space.

Matthew: Same here. I have deleted about two dozen incoming e-mails from people that I do not know. Most of the “subject lines” say THANK YOU, or YOUR APPLICATION, or MY DETAILS. Our virus protection from Computer Associates, E Trust Antivirus is earning it’s licensing fee.

Can someone explain what the SoBigF thing is doing? I get E-mails bouncing back to me that I never sent and they are to people whose addresses aren’t even in my address book. Norton has caught a couple of incoming SoBigF attachments and deleted them before allowing me to open the message. This is getting annoying.

Places Jim Could Live: Jeremy Lott likes this place.

Phillip: I checked with some guys around the office, and the general feeling about Webshots is that it isn’t Spyware, but it is “Ickyware”. None of us trust it further than we can throw it. I think the real concern is that the program downloads other programs (a violation of our policies for users) and that it does contain some security issues, such as Bypassing password protection on Win2k or XP screen savers.

Not only that, but it takes up processor cycles and memory that could be dedicated to my current victory streak on Unreal Tournament.

Scott: Yes, indeed, Titanic was one of your best yet, though I laugh at them all.

And Kazaa is just a bad idea. My sis-in-law in currently living with us and she keeps Kazaa running on my windows PC. She assures me over and over that she’s got it set to not share any files and so on, and I’ve checked and she’s right. But I still won’t allow the mac version on my iMac. I don’t like it and I don’t trust it, even when I see the settings.

Webshots, on the other hand, I’ll defend. I like it so much, I paid to be a premium subscriber. I’ve got over 5000 images in mine, and I’m pretty picky. I’ve got images from 1999! I used to be a user, and I remember when they were sold to Excite as a big dotcom thing, then shut down, then bought back by the original creators (for pennies on the dollar), and so on. So I’m a fan. And I’d rather my users run Webshots than several of the screen savers that ship with MS! Specifically, I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve dealt with performance problems on PCs that were being used a servers, only to find out that they were running an OpenGL 3-D screen saver on the console, and that was dragging the system performance to a crawl.

Anyway, Webshots has been, for me, an extremely well-behaved application over the years. I’m currently running the beta of version 2, and it has been just as predictable and solid as the last. The installation process creates an INSTALL.LOG which reveals exactly what is installed: 1 OCX, 1 uninstall program, the screen saver itself, and a launcher program. The design is actually interesting. If you rename the C:\WINNT\webshots.scr to an .exe file, you’ll find that it is all one program that handles everything, and launcher.exe is just used to treat the scr like an exe.

I also use Tiny Personal Firewall, so I can also verify that Webshots is not in any way spyware. However, it does come initially configured to connect to the webshots.com webpage to check for new daily photos by default, so it does access the network shortly after launch. That’s probably what your source was noticing. If disabled in the options, I can verify that Webshots does not ever try to access the web again. If left enabled, all that happens is that your system tray icon turns into a camera (in version 1), or little tiny thumbnails of today’s new images pop up from the system tray icon (in version 2).

Anyway, I understand your company’s policy, since they don’t necessarily know Webshots from Joe Schmoe’s House Of Virii, but I submit this long glowing endorsement to let others know that Webshots is very nice indeed. And if you use a Mac, pass up the official Webshots client in favor of SwapTop, a third-party client that works much better.

And if you’re having computer problems, by all means, uninstall it first. Uninstall or diable every darn thing that isn’t 100% crucial to booting Windows, and that includes unplugging the network cable sometimes. Although what good a computer not connected to the internet is, I can’t remember.

As a public service, I offer you all a chance to complete your education.

Michael: Sounds like a good plan. IRQ problems are usually related to hardware, although a software driver can cause conflicts. If you get rid of all the programs running in the background, tho, you can narrow it down pretty well. And I’d go ahead and get rid of Kazaa and Webshots. They’re nothing but trouble.

Kazaa is basically opening a door to your computer to the rest of the Internet and saying, “Hi – use my computer”. It’s great for file sharing, but it needs to be emphasized that it’s file sharing, which means that people access your computer and grab files. A reasonably learned hacker can easily use these holes to dig into the rest of your computer. And at the very least, you’re letting other people use your precious hard drive space and processor cycles for free files.

Phillip: Webshots is a problem in several ways. First, it’s a screen saver. Any screen saver created by Bob can have viruses and worms in it, since it’s really just an executable with a different extension. Here at work, we don’t allow any screen savers other than what Microsoft provides. Second, there’s some indication that it may be a type of spyware. My boss (our sysadmin – I’m just a web geek) hasn’t gone too deeply into that other than to state it. However, he tends to know what he’s talking about, with computers anyway.

Denise: You’re welcome.

Scott, I read your synopsis of “Titanic” last night and I’m still laughing. Thank you!

Scott: Webshots? Really? I guess I’ve been lucky, then. I’ve run it for years and never had a problem on any of my computers, Windows or Mac. What sorts of problems have you had?

Michael: Computers suck, and while I’m considered a computer expert around here, all I know is enough to know that nothing is consistent in the way that human beings normally recognize consistency. I will say that I had one guy install AVG 6 on his XP machine, and thereafter the XP machine encountered a STOP error (perhaps the same as yours) every time he booted. He had to reboot in safe mode to even uninstall the thing. I love AVG, and I use it everywhere, but my only XPerience with it wasn’t good. Perhaps that was a coincidence. Maybe.

Scott: 0×00000000a IRQ not less or equal (I think) Says try turning off shadowing. When the error reprt goes to OCA, it always says check recent hardware/software additions. My experience with all the programs I listed is fine, but I don’t like the Kazaa thing, and strongly suspect the CD ROM or burning software as the culprit. But these crashes come anytime. During system restore, while chatting, while burning, while surfing. Bill suggests stopping all non-essential programs running in the background.

Michael: What is the exact text of the blue screen message? A lot of times, it can be something really simple, or stupid. When it crashes, has it been sitting for a while?

I will warn you: we don’t allow Kazaa Lite or Webshots on our computers. Webshots has a tendency of being a huge door through which bad things can enter in. You may want to try to remove those and see how it works.

In general, XP Professional is pretty solid, but I wouldn’t buy the home version unless I couldn’t help it. In my 8 months of using XP, I haven’t crashed once on my home-built piece.

The Spencer family computer curse continues. My Systemax blew its hard drive about a month ago now, and I am using my old Celeron ME system, with a screwed up HD that only allows me access to 2gb instead of 20. My laptop- running perfectly for 2 years- corrupts an XP file and I have to reinstall XP at the cost of a lot of data. Now my daughter’s brand new XP system is crashing 8-10 times a day, sending me the dreaded blue screen of death and a 0×00000000a error code, which is another way of saying a driver or new hardware is doing it. Only problem- there is no new hardware. And as for software, we’ve added: Kazaa lite, Aim, AVG, Ad Aware, a movie playing program (now deleted), Mozilla Firebird and Webshots. When I try to restore to a previous setting it crashes and won’t let me. She leaves Saturday and the computer is a lemon. I once thought XP was a good product. What was I thinking? At this point I really don’t know what to do. The Windows error message area in System Info has several different things, but none appear related to the others, unless the problem is memory, so I am thinking of swapping her 256 for 512 today. My Systemax was like this, even after I reformated the hd and went back to the box. It started with a Norton anti-virus driver that screwed things up long after uninstallation and everything else. What I want to know is why there isn’t a utility that will just tell me what is wrong? “It’s THIS piece of software or hardware?” Frustrating enough to have me considering another computer for her, and that is extreme.

I was scheduled to preach today, but one of our former employees who just did a year of mission service in Africa has showed up, and she has quite a story. She was hit by a bus and nearly killed. Broke her pelvis, legs, etc. Was laid up in a Kenyan hospital. All this her first year of marriage! She will hold their interest I think!

Jim and others:
I didn’t mean to offend anyone about my supposition of lack of (white) evangelical support of MLK. I think a better way to say it is that there was no gigantic attempted mobilization of white evangelicals to help MLK’s cause.

That’s about all I can say, because I’ve just spent all day my first day at the seminary and my brain is fried. Goodnight, and don’t let the bedbugs bite.

I’ll bite Michael,,

let me think,,, hmmmmm
scratches head and says,,

what is music????

My son just paid the price for having a sloppy room. The dog ate a dollar that was on the floor.

Roy Moore’s article in the WSJ is a fine statement of his principles.

Well, the best word for this article on a letter from Anglican Bishop Griswold (What a name!) is whacked.

I am beginning to figure out a bit more of what the Lord has sent us as new staff this year, and we have some wonderful people. But some young and more enthused than teachable. One of them openly prayed for me to have less “talking” in chapel (i.e. preaching) and more…..guess what???

Jim: Sorry, you’re not qualified to be a congressman. You said you like to provide constructive criticism.

Seriously, I do love Eastern Tennessee. It’s so beautiful. You’d probably want to hook up with a church-related school if you could, because otherwise the requirements are pretty onerous. Still, as long as you’re an HSLDA member, you could easily make the “attendance records; must be kept available for inspection” bit work.

And why the surprise that you agree with me, Michael? We agree on most things. I just don’t mention the things we agree on, because I’d sound too sycophantic. It’s much more fun to pick fights. I mean, um, engage in iron-sharpening discussion.

And yes, I assume you were at least partially kidding. Only the second paragraph of this post is serious. All others are a joke. Including this one.

Ooga chaka aooga ooga ooga chaka aooga ooga… I can’t stop this…

Chick Tract Translation
Welcome, friends and foes, aboard the finest luxury liner this side of the Chickiverse… the Titanic. Yes sir, the great ship that God couldn’t sink is now featured in a little tract that talks about God. Irony, ladies and gentles… irony.

Our story opens as passengers prepare to board a huge chunk of steel floating in the water. In the background, Leonardo DiCaprio is seen with the other guy heaving Leo’s career into the chilly waters of the Atlantic, where it belongs. Sorry Leo, but I never really forgave you for Man in the Iron Mask. Or Titanic. Or any of your other pretentious boy-toy celluloid crapped out of 20th Century Fox’s bowels. But this isn’t about Leo…. it’s about Chester. Ol’ Chester’s heading off for NYC with his sweetie, apparently named “Sweetie”.

Chester’s a little upset because dear old Aunt Sophie isn’t going to make this trip. Apparently, she did a little model in her bathtub and figured out what happens to giant chunks of metal when you toss them in water. Anywho, Aunt Sophie did make sure to take the time to send Chester a guilt trip: “Make sure your name is in the Lamb’s Book of Life”. Chester’s not overly concerned with being in a tome written by or for barnyard animals. He’s more concerned with rubbing shoulders with rich people and getting rich. Unfortunately, in the middle of it all, Chester goes back to his room to pilfer through his suitcase, when he discovers a note from Aunt Sophie. Guess what it says.

No, really. Guess. Think hard. It’s from Aunt Sophie. A British Fundamentalist. In the Chickiverse…

No, it’s not her pantyhose. It’s not a naked drawing of her wearing the Heart of the Ocean necklace. It’s a note saying “Make sure your name is in the Lamb’s Book of Life”. Aunt Sophie would have left a Chick Tract, but they weren’t invented yet, and even Jack Chick doesn’t have the power to travel back in time…

Or does he… Hmm… this tract seems to be full of details that only someone who had been on the Ti… nah.

Chester has himself a good, old fashioned aneurism over the letter, complete with that vein on his forehead bulging out… you know… the one you get when you’re trying to suck on a McDonald’s Shake? But right before it bursts into a gory, bloody Stephen King-esque scene… which would have been kinda cool… Chester immediately calms down and makes the decision that he never wants to see Aunt Sophie again. Fortunately, God hears his prayer and has a perfect solution that will ensure that Chester and Aunt Sophie have indeed crossed paths for the last time.

Remember me talking about sticking a hunk of metal in water? Well, what if that hunk of metal hits an iceberg at 35 mph? Yep. Now, I’m not saying God sank the ship. But the God of the Chickiverse did, and what a sinking it was. Chester, being the master of observation skills that he is, seems a little worried that the captain and everyone else is wearing life jackets, that the women and children are heading for the lifeboats, that his room’s porthole now has an octopus stuck to it, and that there are a bunch of sharks selecting the best wines to go with floating, frozen human corpses. “Is it serious, Cap’n?” Cap’n Crunch tells him the sad truth: Chester’s gonna be eating sand for breakfast.

Mmmm…. sand….

The women and children and wussy men are all loaded into the boats and sent off. The band strikes up a cheerful chorus of “Nearer My God to Thee”, complete with a capachin monkey who can do the Charleston. Chester blames it all on God. He shouts, “I hate you, God” – which is probably not the best thing to say to Him, when you’re getting ready to meet Him. God responds by sending the rest of the ship down to become fodder for James “King of the World” Cameron, and by inviting ol’ Chester to join Him at the Great White Throne Judgement. Chester’s name isn’t found in the Book of Life, and he’s sent off to dry out his wet clothes and wet hair in front of the fire. Right before he’s thrown into it.

A wonderful interview with one of the living legends. Rickey Henderson has many records that will never be broken, imo. At 44, he is back in the majors in Dodger blue, and looks like he is 30. An amazing person with some values that I like.

MIchael:

1. Maine is a strong candidate, especially if the Governor signs Legislative Document 160, which will make sweeping changes to the state’s homeschooling laws. Oregon is out, because their governor recently vetoed similar changes (like many politicians, he’s in the pocket of powerful teacher unions.) Washington has some of the worst laws in the nation.


2. Yes.
   
3. I am qualified to do web-related computer work. I like to work with my hands, although I have no particular skill at it. I’m a lousy leader, a poor planner, and I have no success in disciplining myself to do things I really don’t enjoy. I like to argue. The best part of my current job has been the opportunity to provide constructive criticism. I think I should be a congressman.


4. Unlike many home schoolers, we don’t have a big problem with standardized testing, since we use fairly stringent standardized tests ourselves to measure the children’s’ progress. Any law that gives the state the right to approve or dictate the content of the curriculum would be a show-stopper, although we typically don’t mind things like a request that we teach state history. We would not live in a state where the law allows for education officials to enter our home (announced or otherwise) to “observe” our instruction.

It’s funny that you mention Knoxville, because Eastern Tennessee is probably the one place I’ve been in the South that breaks my “I’d never live in the South” rule. I’ll have to look into it.

If anyone has been waiting for Fred Reed to write a column about religion, well, the wait is over. And it is quite marvelous. Fred can sometimes actually be MOVING in his prose. Read and enjoy.

Here is the chief defect of scientists (I mean those who take the sciences as an ideology rather than as a discipline): an unwillingness to admit that there is anything outside their realm. But there is. You cannot squeeze consciousness, beauty, affection, or Good and Evil from physics any more than you can derive momentum from the postulates of geometry: No mass, no momentum. A moral scientist is thus a contradiction in terms. (Logically speaking: in practice they compartmentalize and are perfectly good people.)

Thus we have the spectacle of the scientist who is horrified by the latest hatchet murder but can give no scientific reason why. A murder after all is merely the dislocation of certain physical masses (the victim’s head, for example) followed by elaborate chemical reactions. Horror cannot be derived from physics. It comes from somewhere else.

Doing his best imitation of Ross Perot, Ladies and Gentlemen, General Wesley Clark. (Next episode: “There are black helicopters outside my house!”)

Where are we gonna put Jim? On drugs apparently, because I don’t think we can find a place with all his requirements. So I’ll just ask some questions:

1) Why not Maine, Oregon, Washington?
2) Would lots of freshwater lakes in a mountainous environment work?
3) How about a list of the things you could do/would do/might do other that IT?
4) In private conversations, you’ve said the homeschooling environment is of tantamount importance. Bottom line- what can you tolerate?

I’m going to agree with Phillip (!!) that a lot of what you want is in Tennessee. Particularly Eastern Tennessee, Knoxville, Tri-Cities area if you are willing to trade the ocean for large lakes, beautiful forests and Appalachian mountains. Plus, Tennessee is a good employment state in a lot of fields. The Knoxville, Tri-Cities area is where R.C. Sproul Jr. has camped (read the blogs on the sidebar, esp the last one.) Here is all about the HSC, and it really seems cool. Maybe they need a guy like you. Knoxville has a lot of things you want in a city, including employment opportunities and great Presby Churches, you are only 5 hours from Atlanta, and in no time you can be in the middle of nowhere. There are real seasons, tons of minor league baseball, all the bars from the college scene, great music, and Bart, Birch and I are close enough to drop in unannounced. Plus the area is diverse enough that yankees and Syrians can settle without being noticed. Really, Eastern Tennessee is a great area if you can get where you can live out in the country but still get into the city for whatever cultural, educational things you like.

Since nobody bit when I asked why bigamous or polygamous marriage is wrong, I’ll offer without (much) comment a look at Biblical marriage from an unbelievers perspective. :)

Jim: Four seasons and no real heat is a tough one. No humidity combined with large bodies of open water might be tough, too. If you’re truly stuck on green states, I suspect you’re SOL. Too bad, because Tennessee is really nice (though the large bodies of open water is a strike against it, I think).

Texas is too hot for human habitation, really, or I would point out that you don’t get too much greener (HSLDA-wise) and it’s pretty easy to build on large plots within driving distance of the big city. Alaska beats us (HSLDA-wise) and Michigan is pretty darn similar. But Texas is too hot, so try somewhere else. :(

In an effort to help Jim,,
I present Michigan as ranked against his criterias..

4 seasons: Yup we got them, sometimes all in the same week.
Rainforest weather: No temp above 80: Uh,,two words, Upper Peninsula.
50% humidity: Let me make this clear, if you want lots of water, you get lots of humidity.
Open bodies of Water: You will not find more anywhere.
No sign of human habitation: Two words, Upper Peninsula
Alone, no people: Two words, Upper Peninsula.
Employment possibilities: Doesn’t matter in the Upper Peninsula, no one works anyway.
It ’s a green state on your map!!

The Upper Peninsula fits almost all your requirements, there is no minor league team there, but they have satelite TV!! Grand Rapids has minor league team, but then you lose out on all the other things except water and seasons, and they are a Detroit Tigers farm team, how good could they be?

Bill: Not my church.

Jim: We don’t all hate you in the Carolinas, but the heat and humidity during summer would strike us off your list (often above 80 on both).

May I take this moment to recommend Idaho. It’s in your green states. Weather’s fairly nice (although as with anywhere in the US, it can get really hot and really cold). Lots of mountains, but some flatlands. Easy access to Yellowstone in the Southeast, wide selection of alcohol dispensation locations, good selection of churches, got some job opportunities.

On the downside, there’s a lot of volcanoes and mormons.

Tom, while I share your attitude toward Dobson and the Ugly Monument Lovers crowd, I mildly resent some of your remarks. My white, Baptist conservative Republican father marched, attended MLK’s speeches and even went to see Malcom X once (he was the only white person in the room.) He eventually lost his pastorate because he insisted on integrating the church against the board’s wishes. My Yankee ancestors include Union veterans of the civil war, all motivated by abolition, regardless of the merits of the war.

On the other hand, I see Moore’s point somewhat. Even though it’s a kitschy symbol, there’s something to be said for standing up to systematic attempts to deny our society’s spiritual roots. I just wish the damn thing weren’t so ugly.

Michael, thanks for trying to drum up some interest in my potential relocation. I’ve been swamped with work the past few days (big surprise, as they have managed to lay off all the remaining smart people, that us idiots who don’t know what we’re doing are struggling…) I’d add some clarrifications to your list, to bring it to the following:

1. The desirability of said area. I want 4 seasons. I do not want any of them to include the tropical rainforest weather we recently experienced in DC. Weather is “hot” if the temperature is above 80F. Humidity above 50% is unacceptable. Also,. I like to be alone. Really alone. No-sign-of-human-habitation alone.


2. The employment possibilities for Jim. This is a real challenge, because I’m handicapped by middle age. I know how to do a lot of things that don’t support my family, but the only substantive income I’ve ever had was from work I end up despising. Oh, and my wife thinks I should be a writer, although how exactly that’s supposed to feed us is a mystery.


3. The little known advantages of the area. (This may include local watering holes, minor league baseball teams, Churches, parks, outdoorsy types of stuff, eateries, you name it.) read my lips: large bodies of open water I do not want to stare at Kansas wheatfields. Mountains are nice, but we need some place where we can swim, skate, fish, and paddle.

Also, Mrs. has already vetoed the following:

• Antartica
• Greenland
• Iceland
• Central NY (although I’m still fighting her on that one)

I in turn have ruled out the following:

• The middle east, south central LA, or anywhere else where there are people shooting at each other on a regular basis.


• Florida, because it’s too hot.


• Georgia, because it’s just as hot as Florida, and it smells bad.


• The Carolinas, because everyone there already hates me.


• Ohio, because it’s flat and boring


• Mexico


• Brazil


• Panama


• Columbia


• Anywhere in the former Soviet Union


• Utah

Actually, look over the map at HSLDA, too, because we gravitate toward “green” states on the map

Tim: Hated? No. Pitied, yes. I’m glad you don’t like Guinness – it means more for me!

Tom: How many evangelical Christian leaders who were around back then urged their fellow Christians to join MLK’s cause for civil rights and equality? When you ask this, I have to assume you mean white evangelical Christian leaders, because black evangelical Christian leaders were definitely on-board.

As has been amply discussed here before, I have conflicted views about issues like these. In this case, I think the things should come down, since it isn’t private property. The idea that Christians should be up in arms over something like this seems silly to me. Still, I have great respect for those who advocate theonomy, but only because I know it won’t happen within my lifetime. If I actually had to live under such a system, it would chafe considerably, as well as being (it seems) a rejection of Galatians and, well, maybe even Christ Himself.

And as Bill says, the 10C’s aren’t even displayed in my church (except for possibly in the Sunday school classrooms, I haven’t been in all of them.)

Michael: I don’t think I’ve ever called you a universalist directly, though I’ve certainly talked about “your universalist tendencies.” Rest assured that I use that term to describe only your reaction to Robert Capon, and an occasional wistful statement of yours about erring on the side of God’s mercy. Like you, I would like to believe that God’s mercy is truly universal. In one sense, I believe that it is, in that Christ paid for all sins. And like you (I think), it pains me to realize that for some strange reason, God chose me and not some others. I don’t deserve, and I don’t understand it, and it’s sad, but I believe that you accept it as I do, with some discomfort and relief.

In short, no charges of heresy from these quarters, rest assured, just offers of any flavor of Guinness you like whenever you find yourself in North Texas.

Just a quick poll: How many of the Churches of the fellows of the BHT prominently display the 10 commandments in the Sanctuary? You can put a NO down for my church.

Michael: I hope what you believe is true. I want to believe what you do about this. I just can’t square it with Romans 10:9-14, especially with verse 14.

The only way that I can see to reconcile your position to those verses is to say that they (unreached people) are hearing and they are being preached to, just in some sort of internal “speaking to the heart” fashion. I don’t think the context of the verses lean in that direction but I could be wrong. I certainly can’t prove it in either direction. As I said earlier, I have heard testimony of someone in China who supposedly came to Christ by direct revelation of the Gospel. I can’t speak to the truth of it, but it would reconcile your position without doing damage to the verses in Romans.

All that said, I’ll cast my vote in the “Spencer is not a universalist” box. If this is the height of our disagreement then we’re not too bad off.

That was a good article from Proctor. I talked to a very conservative friend of mine last night, and he supports Judge Moore largely because James Dobson does. I reminded my friend that only 2 of the 10 Commandments are actually laws of the land here in the US, and he said that’s true, but the 10Cs are the basis of the law (how can that be true when, again, only 2 are actual laws, but, oh well).

I did read the link to the article talking about James Dobson’s calls for Christians to go to Montgomery to protest. The fact that this is happening in Montgomery, Alabama made me think back to the early civil rights movement when MLK was organizing marches and protests for equal rights back in the ‘60’s. How many evangelical Christian leaders who were around back then urged their fellow Christians to join MLK’s cause for civil rights and equality? Probably not a single one. They were sitting on their butts shaking their heads, calling MLK a communist and questioning his theology. But, years later, hey gang, let’s all mobilize to save a MARBLE SLAB, in the name of Jesus! Are our priorities all screwed up, or what?

Today is my first day of classes at Phillips Theological Seminary. All my classes are on Tuesday. I’m taking 9 hours: Intro to Theology, Intro to Old Testament, and Intro to Theological Education for Ministry (known in short as ITEM). Yes, it’s a liberal seminary, but, you know what? I think I’m going to really enjoy it. I had orientation and enrollment last week, met most of the professors, and all the ones I met were really cool. It was a nice, friendly, inviting atmosphere, which I think is what they strive to do. They value everyone’s input, and consider the students “teachers” as well. I guess all this friendliness and welcoming atmosphere is just an evil plot to get me to turn liberal, huh?! ;)

A man after Michaels heart..
I always like reading Paul Proctor, I usually agree with him.

At the risk of being hated by everyone here, I cannot stand Guiness, or at least the one I had one my life. It tasted like coffee grinds.

I like lots of dark and bock beers, and every amber I have ever had, but not the Guiness Stout,,yuck..

I will buy you one though,, and a Yoo Hoo for Alex,, as for me, I’ll take a Becks Amber, or Killians… or Labatts Extra Stock 50/50.

It’s worth you buying me a Guinness and Alex a Yoo-Hoo. :-)

Michael,

I got it, and I agree with you on this issue, for whatever that is worth.

From a previous post: “I am a universalist, in that I believe the merits of Christ- the cosmic Logos- are sufficient to save everyone. Those who may not know Christ by name or know him correctly, may still be saved, if they place their faith in what they DO TRULY KNOW about Christ, by God’s grace, which may be very, very little. You guys have GOT to stop saying that I am advocating some kind of sincere belief in the tenets of other religions. I AM NOT.”

And also: “I believe that God may sovereignly give the gift of salvation by grace through faith, based on the merits of Christ alone to persons who, through no fault of their own, cannot hear or comprehend the historical proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus. Please read this carefully, because this is all that I believe. To be shorter, I believe some people who cannot hear the whole Gospel of Jesus may still have saving faith.”

Without being a wiseguy, or having a bad attitude, etc.- I am not sure that you guys are quite comprehending what initially got my attention. Your position that the historical Gospel must be proclaimed in order for a person to be saved by grace through faith by Christ- means that every single human being who ever lived went to hell before 4,000 years ago. All, without possibility of God saving anyone at all. If that squares with the God of the Bible as you know Him, cool.

Now there is no injustice with God in condemning the whole planet. But I don’t see the Bible magnifying Justice and not also magnifying mercy. Genesis magnifies mercy at every opportunity. The history in Genesis 1-12 is saying that in this world there was an Abel, an Enoch, a Moses, an Abraham out there demonstrating God was a saving, merciful God. Now whatever theological, Biblical problem a person has with this being true now is either: 1) a problem of not understanding historical circumstance. (For instance, saying that the rules changed for a Mayan living in Central America whenever Christ was born.) or 2) a problem of tending towards dispensationalism as a way of understanding the Bible. (Dispys have a special dispensation- or several- before Law) To say or suggest that GOD is different now just makes no sense. And to say that the Bible’s point of view- i.e. showing salvation from the standpoint of God’s involvement- makes accounts like Genesis 5:21-24 or Genesis 12:1-4 unique and exceptional, just can’t be sustained. The clear picture is God has always been saving sinners, and saving them a lot longer BEFORE they knew who the savior was, than since.

The author of the BOT article says that Pinnock believes Cornelius was saved by his own religion. Hello? Cornelius was a “God-fearer.” He was worshiping what he knew of Yahweh, not Jupiter. I love and respect BOT, but I can’t give them high marks for really understanding some of the points of view they criticize.

A TWENTIETH CENTURY TESTIMONY BY MALCOLM MUGGERIDGE

This engaging encounter with a controversial journalist exposes the twentieth century’s idolatries, ideologies, and pretenses, and why they crumble after an encounter with Christ. This documentary follows Muggeridge – who embraced Catholicism in his eightieth year – to his English country estate, Madame Tussaud’s Wax Museum where he is immortalized, and to the Holy Land.

Sunday August 24, 7:00 PM
Tuesday August 26, 1:00 PM
Friday August 29, 3:00 AM

on EWTN (the Catholic channel)

Alex: None of these three are my position, and I am a bit sad that you think any one of them are. I agree with the sentence regarding Sanders, but having read Pinnock’s book and Sander’s book, I know neither of them agree with me, particularly Sanders, who is an Openness Theologian.

Most certainly this is NOT my position: “Pinnock claims that certain Biblical pagan saints’ (eg Jethro, Rahab and Cornelius) all received salvation through their own religions. For his part Sanders believes that the unevangelized may benefit from Christ’s saving work without even hearing of it.”

I have made it plain that I do not believe anyone was saved by sincere adherence to a false religion. I believe some were saved by grace through faith and by Christ by putting that faith in as much light about the true God as it was POSSIBLE for them to know. I have explained this extensively, and posted it on the Scriptorium. I am not a Universalist in the sense of the BOT article or anyone mentioned in the article.

There is an article over at the Banner of Truth homepage that has something to say about the iMonk’s universalism.

I can’t believe I actually agree with a dirty Brit…

Did Jesus use bridge events? The old “did Jesus do it” argument again. John 21:25.

Michael: On “bridge events,” I’ve heard it argued that healing all of those who were sick was a way to draw people in to hear the gospel. To me, healing the sick seems to be a markedly different level of action than hosting a purely secular event and handing out an invitation to church at the door.

Besides, (in unison now) the church is for believers, so anything that has ge