Come on, JN, Michael’s been too busy praying to follow all of the links… (JN)

Don’t be left behind. Enter this sweepstakes !!! (JN)

Wow! it’s like deja vu all over again .

Egyptians sueing Jews over Lost Gold of the Exodus.

Surely, brethren, this brings other possible lawsuits to mind?

“Descendents of Goliath sueing all Jews for Grief, Suffering.”
And so on….

It’s “Prayer Week” here at OBI, an invention of mine that I’m kicking myself for not doing earlier. My current positive attitude is bleeding over into a bit of disappointment that I missed out on some of the cool things I am going to do this year. One of our premier religiously fanatical students is back at it, exactly one year from the time she went off the rails last year. Is it the moon?

I’m looking for a place that might be selling decently affordable desktop computers with Linux preinstalled. I’ve found a nice system for about $650.

Art imitates life.

The Movie Blog is good. Been reading a while, and I like his stuff.

How about a favorite C.S. Lewis quote from Desiring God?

If you asked twenty good men to-day what they thought the highest of the virtues, nineteen of them would reply, Unselfishness. But if you asked almost any of the great Christians of old he would have replied, Love. You see what has happened? A negative term has been substituted for a positive. The negative ideal of Unselfishness carries with it the suggestion not primarily of securing good things for others, but of going without them ourselves, as if abstinence and not their happiness was the important point. I do not think this is the Christian virtue of Love. The New Testament has lots to say about self-denial, but not about self-denial as an end in itself. We are told to deny ourselves and to take up our crosses in order that we may follow Christ; and nearly every description of what we shall ultimately find if we do so contains an appeal to desire. If there lurks in most modern minds the notion that to desire our own good and earnestly to hope for the enjoyment of it is a bad thing, I submit that this notion has crept in from Kant and the Stoics and is no part of the Christian faith. Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desires, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.

Jim: You’ve just got to go back a little further, and there is no escape, even in Nebraska. “The abundance of shark remains testifies to the great number of fishes that must have existed to supply food to these rapacious animals. In the chalk of Knox County, through a vertical thickness of 100 feet, every foot of rock contains more or less of scales, bones and teeth of fishes.

Plus, there are zoos. With virgin births, no less, to keep this on a theological topic!

Denise: My wife went through that process for our first two children. After the third one (a ten-pounder!), she decided that she wasn’t going to give birth again. We could adopt, or she might consider a C-section, but there was not a chance on God’s green earth that she was going to actually give birth again. I had marveled in the past how women so easily forget the difficult parts of pregnancy and the pain of labor, but my wife surprised me by not forgetting. Ever.

I guess every person has their limit, and 9 lbs, 15 oz must have been my wife’s!

P.S. We still put on parties, though…

Kurt and Philip, I’ve decided church potlucks are like childbirth. When you’re in the throes of it all, you want to yell, “Don’t ever ask me to do this again!” But when it’s all over, you beam and say, “Let’s do this again next week!”

Great White Shark Seen Near San Onofre State Beach Why is it news that sharks occasionally can be found swimming in the ocean? Now, if someone sees a shark in, say, Nebraska, that would be something.

Denise: Not much in this life is worth the effort in one sense, but it’s all worth the effort in another. When I work hard to put on a party, I don’t tend to enjoy much the few hours while everybody is there nearly as much as I enjoy all the times when people tell me, “That was a great party!” and other people tell me about things that happened in rooms where I wasn’t and so on. It’s the memories, and the grateful guests/family members. I’m sure Michael appreciates your effort, and everybody else might, too.

I won’t even bring up the subject of putting fried sausage in nacho dip… ;)

Faith healing is not harmless. Fanaticism is left unchecked, and this kind of tragedy is more common than we know.

The boy’s mother, Patricia Cooper, started coming to the church about three months ago after she met one of its members at a doctor’s office, Hemphill said.

He said members of the church, made up of just six families, prayed for God to release the evil spirits that he said caused the boy’s illness. The church had been performing the prayer services for the boy three times a week for the past three weeks, Hemphill said.

“The boy just had a problem in his mind, and what we were doing was asking God to fix it,” Hemphill said. “He chose to fix it by taking him back home to Him.”

A good Lord’s Day. A church picnic brought out the largest crowd we’ve had in a year, and everyone said I preached my best in a while. (Quite a bit on heaven, which mountain people like.) Fact is, I didn’t prepare at all, but simply talked about a text in Genesis and how it encouraged me in dealing with my own fear of death. It has always appeared that when I just speak off the cuff, I connect much better with people than when I prepare. But I am afraid of myself as a speaker without preparation. My sense of humor can go in places I really shouldn’t go, and a lot of what I say is filler and I know it. But people always respond very positively to personal messages from me, which I guess says I need to not be afraid of that.

My kids are starting to get some interesting reactions to their choices to be Presbyterians/Episcopalians in a Baptist/Pentecostal world. Their friends are puzzled, and there have been some humorous/not so humorous conversations that indicate it is kind of shocking to their friends that they don’t like the revivalism and whateveryoucallit that goes on in these churches today. “The Show “I guess is as good as anything. We have 8 religious channels on our cable, and they are all full of preachers and worship services that make me nauseous. The “parading around” of these preachers, their unrestrained ego and self-indulgence, the thinly veiled sexuality in much of it- it’s disgusting. And weird- very weird. God is the last person glorified and what is said about God that’s true is so smothered in nonsense and fanaticism that no sane person would want to sort through it all. Well, my kids have reacted against this (with parental help) and it’s scandalous to their friends who are about half submerged in the same malarkey. Our one visit to the Episcopal Church really made a powerful impression on both of them, and I have no doubt that it’s the Liturgy vs the preacher/the Show that did it. Noel leaves for Transy Saturday, and her friends are stupified that she’s announced she will be going to an Episcopal or Presby Church. She’s also announced her intention to join Young Republicans, which may get a yawn from some of you, but suits me just fine.

What the heck is going on at Razormouth? No update since August 16? I hope everything is OK with Joel and Jeremy, because I like the site, and always cheer when it appears they are going to become a successful daily, but it just hasn’t happened yet.

Judson: I share a concern that many libertarian conservatives sound far more like anarchists than they realize. I don’t believe the Biblical response to the fall is opposition to all human institutions. God endorsed marriage after it was clear it was going to be a mess. The same with human government. I don’t believe Christian libertarians and conservatives are as anti-government as they often sound, but I do agree that the role of government in America is something that I think we’ve failed to adequately discuss in balanced, realistic terms. The way in which Republicans like Reagan and Bush can run mostly against government, and then make government larger, is a fundamental problem in conservatism. Myself, I think government making the world safe for PE to do what it does best, and helping PE do what it does ethically and justly is a good mission. I also don’t trust PE with a blank check, and certainly not government. Time mag recently revisited the PE experiement in the Philly school system. It shows that PE can’t do worse, often does better, but is not a savior or a solution. A good topic.

My adult Bible Study was split about 60/40 for Judge Moore. Why can’t evangelicals figure out that we don’t control public institutions? I had people in my class saying the public schools should read a Bible chapter every morning and have Christian prayer led by the teacher. This is nuts.

Evangelical and conservative Episcopalians are sending the message with their checkbooks: Big mistake in ordaining Robinson.

Where is Lark News when I need it? (Is it news a Christian singer is anti-premarital sex? What does that say?!)

Does it bear a witness to Jesus if I go to a gas station and give people money? Pragmatism is getting very creative. This kind of “stunt” is for publicity, right?

Harold O.J. Brown nails what is going on in the church today with this quote from his book “Heresies”. The quote is in chapter 2, page 8,October 2000 edition.

“Today heresy and orthodoxy have changed roles. It is fashionable, not dangerous, to be a heretic, and dull if not unsafe to be orthodox”.

Judson: Thanks for the replies.

I am really not a full-fledged libertarian. I do share their concerns about government intrusion into areas of common sense personal freedoms. However, I am not one who thinks government is unnecessary. Quite the opposite. I did not want to go into that in my earlier post simply because I was getting long-winded.

Yes, there are benefits governmnet can and should supply. A military for the common defense of its’ citizens is , of course, the time worn example. There are others as well. I do not deny the benefits of a principled government. And – yes, I am willing to accpet certain govt. assistance programs – to a certain point – as long as they work to assist people back into the marketplace.

My main concern is that many people are beginning to believe that govt. can do all things better than private citizens using their minds and creativity can do. That I cannot accept nor is what I have observed time and again. A number of people in different professions have told me personally they wished the government would just step out of their way and let them do their jobs. Any time the govt. has actively entered a sector of our economy, the beauracrats have just messed it up.

Due to this “concept” that govt. can do all things better, people are turning their destines over to faceless officials who do not care about them. Here is an example. A water well mechanic and I talked about the possiblity of social security reform and tax rate reductions. He asked me something like this, ” Well, what if you save your money and I decided I want to spend my extra money on a pick-up, then when I get to retirement I do not have anything”. In other words, he would rather put his money into a retirement that gives him a 2% return at best and a negative return at worst. The gist of his entire argument was that govt. could take care of him because he would not.

One of the other main concerns is taxation and spending. I am not opposed to taxes; they are needed to fund the social contract between citizens and the govt. However, the rate of spending in this country is completely out of control. All too frequently, politicians – on both sides of the aisle – spend money, not because they are generous, but because they want votes. This is one of the most short-sighted and ultimately, disastrous things our leaders can do. Tax rate reductions, in the short run, can help our economy – and my families budget – but, until govt. learns to live within it’s means, we will continue to have astronomical govt. induced debt. If I ran my household the way the politicians run our govt., I would have landed in jail a long time ago.

I know this is long-winded. I hope it helps you understand why I asked the earlier questions.

Again, thanks for the replies.

Charles: I should add- you’re right, government (especially our system of democracy, unfortunately) is often as short-sighted as private enterprise. I overstated my case, just to emphasize what I see as the two complementary jobs of both.

I do wish people of a libertarian bent would acknowledge those complementary purposes, and admit the intricate ways in which it often works to the benefit of citizens, rather than just decrying everything as government intrusion.

Charles: Your comments are welcome. However, most of what you wrote was in agreement with what I said, and some of it was in response to arguments I didn’t make (For example, I don’t remember claiming that having a job was a bad thing.)

I appreciate libertarianism best as a system of piety, which cajoles people to take as much personal and communal responsibility as possible so that the king won’t have much to do. From that standpoint, I like it.

However, I increasingly see it as just a system of black cynicism, given to saying untrue things about both the civil apparatus as well as hallowed private enterprise.

For example- you pointed out ways in which PE was doing a good job. Are you willing to about-face and admit some areas where you are glad the government exists and is involved in your life?

If you can’t, well, congratulations, welcome to the agrarian commune in your mind.

Denise: Church potlucks are worth it because its the women-folk that end up cooking the food while the men-folk consume the majority of it. It’s the Baptist way. (JN)

Judson: I hope I am not intruding into a private conversation, but your responses to Jacks’ post intrigued me.

You seem to be endorsing statism as the superior system economically.

On profit: I understand how you could mistrut the profit motive, but, then how do you expect to get paid?

You stated that private enterprise (PE) does not do a good job of taking care of their employees. I agree with you on that because there are so many examples of this. However, are you lumping small family owned businesses in with large corporations? If you are, consider that many small businesses – yes, they are PE also – do a very good job of caring for their employees. In many cases it is the family that comprises 99% of the employee staff. There are also larger companies that are very good to work for; they do just not make the news.

As an aside: I have been in large stores and conversed with their employees. Just for grins I ask the staff how they enjoy their jobs. In many cases, they are very positive about pay and benefits. In other cases there are those who just say “It is a job”.

Government Most Merciful? There are too many multi-generational welfare families still mired in poverty. If assistance programs truly moved people into the workforce I would be willing to agree with the government programs more. And there has been progress made here in recent years.

Government more forward thinking? Actually, what I have observed over the years is “Pacify today, print more money, raise more taxes, spend more money and let the future generations worry about it”. Government is actually very short-sighted. Long term consequences about government spending are ignored are they are dealt with by increasing taxation.

Hope I did not intrude.

I too enjoy Great Britain. I was fortunate to have visited there twice for extended visits. Most of my time was spent in the rural areas.

K-State 42 Cal 28. Saw the first half and part of the second. K-State will be a contender. Of course, they had some times when concentration seemed to break down, but that happens with any team. Cal can score and might have stayed closer had they chosen to kick a field goal and tie the game at 10 rather than get stuffed at the goal line. On the other hand, had they scored and gone ahead by four, it could have been even tighter. Momentum of a team can often be influenced by only one or two plays during the game.

Are church potlucks worth it? We’ve got a potluck picnic tomorrow. I’ve been cooking off and on all day. It’s now 12:35 a.m. and I’m frying sausage to put in my nacho dip. Whew! It all seems pretty crazy right now. Will it be worth it? You’ll have to ask Michael and the kids tomorrow. I’m sure they’ll say “yes;” they haven’t cooked all this stuff! Goodnight all.

Former Priest in jail for child molestation murdered in prison.

Michael: You’re right. I was thinking of that even as I posted it. I am of course speaking from a temporally limited perspective. For one reason, because that’s where we are, and two, because although we think we kinda have an idea of God’s eternal perspective, we may be far wrong. I like to tell the classes that I teach that God was working on my salvation before Adam drew his first breath. Most Christians see God as reactive instead of proactive.

Bill: Your response to Jim is a good example of what happens when we speak of salvation temporally vs eternally. Both are, of course, valid. (It actually gets more complex than that!) Calvinists love to speak of the eternal dimension of God’s grace, while evangelicals (of every kind) tend to speak of it temporally. I wasn’t saved until I repented and believed, and yet, from another point of view, I was saved long ago. I always tend to speak of salvation experientially, except when I am speaking of God’s role in it. POV IOW.

Michael: Hmm. I see the misunderstanding. By “more is required of us” I wasn’t talking about salvation, I was referring to evangelism. We have been given a clearer, more focused picture of God’s grace and mercy in Christ, and so we are required to tell of that as outlined in great commission. I was just echoing Christ’s “much is given, much is required” idea.

Jim: I agree that faith is the result of election, well, of regeneration. I don’t agree that election and salvation are synonymous although the former certainly and inevitably results in the latter. Before we came to Christ we were dead in trespasses and sins. That’s not salvation.
The jailer asked Paul, “what must I do to be saved?”, not “what must I do to show that I have always been saved”. Paul told the jailer” Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved” not, “Believe in Jesus Christ and you will prove that you were always saved.” But the elect have always been elect, since election is God’s sovereign choice from all eternity.

Jack:

Tho I am of Celtic extraction (dimly), I do love London. It’s just a cool town. When I was there, I got into a phone booth on the bridge over the Thames, waited til a few seconds before midnight, and called my dad back in the States, then held up the phone while Big Ben chimed. He guessed what it was immediately.

I could spend weeks in the BM. Literally.

Pointing out that the government often doesn’t do a very good job at building roads or running schools is no proof that private enterprise can do them better. It’s simply evidence that people are human.

Private enterprise often does pretty dismally at what it’s supposed to be good at, too. Private enterprise often sucks at making money. It definitely sucks at taking care of the people who work for it.

So, the PE which fails, gets replaced by better PE, right? Well, same principle in classical democracy. Both have their place, and the human sense of pragmatism supposedly keeps both going in the most efficient manner humanly possible. Which often sucks, for both PE and government, because we’re human.

That’s why I don’t have enough faith in 1) the profit motive, and 2) “survival of the fittest” in order to be much of a libertarian in that regard.

Because PE really is all about making money. Which is good. But there is no way it can always coincide with what’s good for humanity—- because there often just isn’t any economic incentive to do services. That’s just fact.

Oh, I’m all for experimentation. Trying to arrange circumstances to see if PE can do things better. But in principle I know it’s impossible in many cases.

Same holds true for doing mercy. The government is much better at doing mercy than PE, because mercy by definition provides no economic benefit to the mercy giver. The recipients can’t pay for it. The church does mercy because it is the light of the world; governments do mercy because there is enough light shed to illuminate the natural world so that all humans know mercy is good, and that governments providing mercy and security are good.

However, when all leaders of PE become saved, I’ll definitely try out your hypothesis. Because then, even PE will be completely redeemed, and will do services and mercy whether they hold economic profit or not. Hey, don’t laugh, the day is coming!

I strongly suspect that smart, forward-thinking action by governments can have enormous benefits which could never be wrought by PE alone. (Yeah, how frequent is smart, forward thinking action by government? But remember, PE is often pretty dumb too!) Because PE by nature is often short-sighted—they’re not worried about the company being around in 100 years, they want good charts next quarter so the stock price will be high. But government by nature has to worry about the future.

Areas in which the government has spurred a lazy PE by offering incentives, etc., which in all cases ended up benefitting both PE and government, include telecommunications, the space industry, and 401ks.

Like you, I don’t want the govt. to always be the infrastructure and do all the work, but I do like the fact that it often kicks PE in the tail when needed, which ends up being good for everybody. And, I just don’t believe PE can always do better. Case in point—the TSA.

So, if the big booger bear of govt. is that its slow, bureacratic nature makes it unfit to do some things, I’d argue that the booger bear of PE is that its own short-sighted nature makes it unfit to do some things. That’s why I’m glad there’s both. Of course, if sloth and greed were not human characteristics, I’d say privatize everything, or go the other way and do the commune thing. Kum ba yah.

I almost always make that distinction, because though you explained the relationship very well, I have never met a non-Calvinist who could do much more than get really confused and start talking fatalism, Christ didn’t need to die, then why should anyone believe, etc. Faith flows from regeneration and it all flows from the sovereignty of God in election. (see WCF readers.) ALl things necessary for our salvation, from effectual call to perseverance to glorification to resurrection, are the work of electing grace.

Michael, I’d go even further, and say that not even faith is “required” for salvation, since “saving faith” is the by-product of grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes that clear. So while I might agree that anyone who is elect will have faith, I’d call it the result of election, not the agent of it. Oh, and back in the discussion, somebody (not you) made a distinction between election and salvation. There isn’t any. Everyone who is elect is saved. Everyone who is saved is elect. Consider them synonyms.

”...more is required of us.” That’s where we are parting ways in our understanding. I think nothing is required for salvation except faith in the God who provides it. How much we know about how God provided it does not seem to be a component of saving faith. Obviously, the more we know of Jesus, the better. But I don’t believe any particular kind or amount of knowledge is necessary. IOW I don’t believe in salvation by knowledge, but by faith, and the knowledge content of saving faith does not necessarily contain the bio of the redeemer, etc.

One good thing came out of the 25 mile-back breaking bike trip. I finally jumped over the -40lb barrier. I had been hovering at -39 lbs for a few days and was getting a little frustrated (talking about weightloss here). I don’t think I’ll be able to sit on a bike seat for awhile however.

On the Covenants: I essentially agree. The “change” that I’m speaking of is in clarity and focus. It’s as if the whole thing was slightly blurred and then Jesus came and adjusted the lense. We have been given “more” in a sense, and therefore more is required of us.

Here’s another post on the “Wider Hope” discussion over at the BHT. More »« Less

Bill: Go to Minor League Baseball.com, click on teams, and then geographically. Look at New York. Cool!

A man with a back problem on a 25 mile bike trek. I’m sure your doctor will have a word about that.

I didn’t feel you were persecuting me :). I did feel your statement about sincerity made it sound as if the sovereignty of God in salvation wasn’t at the center of what I was saying. If I err in hoping God is saving many Abrahams and Enochs today, and did for the thousands of years of human history BEFORE either the old covenant or the new, then its a good error! Remember, since I believe in an old earth, I have a lot of human history in my theology that must be accounted for particularly before Moses, etc. Much more than since Moses, etc.

Many Reformed theologians have said “both” covenants are simply aspects of one covenant. This is very important to me, and I cannot subscribe to a “change.” Enoch and Abraham looked forward to the savior that we look back to. Only perspective has changed. Otherwise, the addition of the law, and the record of history/revelation/law do not indicate any change in God himself. I see it all as an unfolding teaching process- a collection of illustrations that teach the basic message of salvation by grace through faith by Christ. Dispensationalism has a real appeal to a lot of Bible students who want the “old” and the “new” to indicate some kind of progress via change. I think they are simply walking around the same God and seeing truths of who He is and what he does in the light of how God has revealed himself.

I’ll say K-State 52 Cal 27.

Man: I’m without internet for a day and see what happens. So many misunderstandings, so little time.

First: Who the heck are the MuckDogs?

Second: I don’t think you are a Universalist. Never have.

Socrates meets Jesus is a great book.

“I am a universalist in believing that anyone, anywhere, anytime can be saved. I do not believe this sentence: “No one living in America before 1492 could be saved.”

I agree. God can do whatever He wants. One of my questions still remain. What leads you to believe that He IS doing it that way? (saving people without knowledge of Christ, therefore unable to place their faith in Christ). Is it dispensational to say things are different since Christ came? It is after all called the New Covenant (by Christ). Yes, it is still of faith, a gift of God, but Christ is and must be the object of that faith.

If God was (is) going to reveal himself to someone apart from human preaching (which I think He can do), why wouldn’t He reveal himself through Christ?

“I am a universalist, in that I believe the merits of Christ- the cosmic Logos- are sufficient to save everyone. Those who may not know Christ by name or know him correctly, may still be saved, if they place their faith in what they DO TRULY KNOW about Christ, by God’s grace, which may be very, very little.”

I agree, since that includes all of us. None of us know Him correctly or completely. And it doesn’t matter what we call Him.

“I am sorry Dr. Piper has decided to read the Bible like a dispensationalist on this issue. He apparently thinks that we need a certain amount of “wretched urgency” to fuel missions.”

I haven’t read enough of Piper to know all that he thinks about this. I agree that the bible doesn’t teach “wretched urgency” but it certainly conveys some sense of urgency. God has told us very specifically that He will do the inside work and expects us to do the telling. That’s the plan. What He may or may not be doing that is outside the plan is not for us to know.

I know Abraham was not saved by revelation. My point was that he came to know of the true God by revelation, to whom he then responded in faith. I’m sure he didn’t know Him perfectly or completely. But since Christ we know more than he did.

Someone has to preach to them. Can it be God Himself? Sure.

OK. I’m through. I don’t think either side is as far apart as it seems when it is written down. I just can’t find the right words for this and we’re building strawmen that over-exaggerate the other’s view.

On a lighter note. I went bike riding with a few colleagues last evening, thinking it would be OK for my back and get me a little exercise. We figured on going about 10 miles. Well, we missed a turn somewhere and ended up riding about 25 miles, the last 10 in full darkness. The back is a bit sorer than usual today.

Michael: Did you get your Knoppix CD yet?

Jack: I had no trouble guessing what your friends nicknamed that hotel in Germany. I was in the military far too long.

Also about politics: I have read where people in our country actually stated something like this: “Yeah, Hitler was not such a nice guy , but at least he had the trains running on time”. They ran on time all right; straight to the death camps.

Football: Prediction: K-State 31, Cal 17.

With apologies to the Beatles, I am…
Back in the US, back in the US, back in the US of A.
Actually, I’m writing this from the Cincinnati airport, which is in Kentucky. But I’ll address the issue of stupidity later in my post.

It turns out that the hotel I was staying in this week is right around the corner from Mick Jagger’s house. The Stones canceled their concert at the Twickenham Rugby Grounds last night due to Mick’s sore throat – I didn’t even know the Stones were giving a concert. (Well, “giving” may not be the exact right word…) I was standing at the bus stop waiting for the 65 bus toward Ealing-Broadway when this American began questioning me about how the buses work. It’s always so fun to meet a fellow American when I’m overseas, particularly fun when I can help him out. He was trying to find a hotel for the night because he’d just heard about the Stones concert; everything for miles around was totally booked up.

To see a 60 year old rocker.
And his cadaverous guitar player.
Amazing.

Travel can be simply exhausting, especially doing the Jet-Lag Mambo, but I still think London is one of the coolest places on earth. I got to see lots of friends, drank lots of coffee on the High Street, did a lot of people watching, drank beer with my old clients and laughed our collective asses off. All in all, a fun time.

Oh, I also spent a couple of scintillating days in Marienfeld, Germany at the beautiful Hotel Klosterpforte. We had a nickname for the place, a play on its name, that those of you with a military background may be able to guess – the Hotel Klusterf… (I love hanging out with pagans!) Apparently this place used to be a monastary, but the local market for Roman Catholicism dried up and I think the hotel did a leveraged buyout.

Or something like that…

Anyway, it was the first hotel I’ve ever been to that had its own chapel on the grounds.

Had some outstanding political discussions with the guys I was meeting with there, (mostly Americans, but a few Germans & English as well). Politics and beer is such a great combination.

It stuns me how otherwise intelligent people simply do not think about the political beliefs they hold so dear. I asked them, “name one thing the government can do better than private enterprise”, and these educated idiots couldn’t come up with anything better than, “maintain the roads, run the schools.”

Oh yeah – they do a great job at that, don’t they?

Sigh. Very Big Sigh. We deserve the government we have because we are collectively a bunch of morons. And the most stunning feature of all is that the Europeans are even more moronic than we are.

I started reading Dostoevsky’s Crime & Punishment for the first time on the plane home today. (I’m a victim of government education and am now trying to catch up.) Check out this soliloquy from the drunkard Marmeladov:

God shall… raise up his voice to us, saying unto us, “Come out, ye drunkards, come out, O ye that are weak, come out, ye that live in shame!” And we shall come out and shall not be ashamed, and shall stand before Him. And He will say unto us: “Ye are as swine! Made in the image of the Beast, and marked with his brand, but come ye also!” And the wise and the learned will raise up their voices saying, “Lord! Why dost thou receive them?” And He will say unto them: “Because they none of them ever believed themselves worthy of it…”

I think I’m gonna enjoy this book.

Thanks for the correction. I meant the AA team of the St. Louis Cardinals, the Seiverville, Tennessee Smokies. It was a long night. I need to spend more time reading Minor League Baseball.com. The Captains have an ad on one of our cable channels, and my simple mind thought they were a team I saw once in Knoxville back in the 80’s. It appears there are three minor league teams in East Tennessee, so I have my pick.

Bill, I think I’m coming to New York to see the MUCKDOGS!

Michael: If you are headed to Knoxville to see the Lake County Captains, I believe you’ll be headed in the wrong direction. The Captains play in Eastlake, Ohio, which is located just east of Cleveland. My whole family and I went to one of their games when Connie and I visited Cleveland this past 4th of July.

“I’m not a very mental person. I’m not very smart, and you’ll notice that more if I’m around here longer. I don’t get paid to think; if I was, I’d be broke. So if the phone rings in the bullpen, I’ll answer it.” —Tom Martin, Dodgers reliever (L.A. Times)

“Some people like skinny women. I like fat women. Some people like young women. I like older women. Some people like poor women. I like rich women… Some people like clean hats. I like my dirty hat.” —Julian Tavarez, Pirates pitcher (Pittsburgh Tribune-Review)

“Chuck and duck, when I’m facing him, I want no single guys playing the infield behind me. I don’t want anyone losing a husband or a father.” —David Weathers, Mets pitcher, on facing Barry Bonds (Newark Star-Ledger)

Louisville Bats 0, Indianapolis Indians 1. Ended the game with the bases loaded, and the Bats just couldn’t get that last one across. A more beautiful night at the ballpark, I have never seen. A monstrous line of storms came through Ky last night, and we were stranded out in the country for 30 minutes while the biggest, baddest thunderstorm cell I have ever encountered came over us (purple, green, swirling, etc.) and shook our cars like rags. The temperature dropped 25 degrees, and by the time we arrived at Louisville Slugger field, it was one of those amazing sunsets, 67 degrees, beautiful. We were front row, upper deck, over the first base line, looking across the park to the river, skyline, bridges and purple, pink sunset. Geese and airplanes flying over. The ballpark organ. The vendors yelling. I could gush over the utter perfection of it all. Big pretzels, nachos, hot dogs, lots of laughter. You guys with kids gotta do this as much as possible. My kids don’t like sports, but they have a great time at the ball park. When we left, I stood and looked over the field for a long time, then we walked to the car- with fireworks- in the sky, which Denise absolutely loves. A perfect family outing. Life is good and God is great.

The Bats have these 2 trained Golden Retrievers that take bats to the players, water to the umps, chase Frisbees. Really cool. What a great life for a dog!

I’ve decided to do some more baseball trips next year, mainly here in the state. I want to see some of the nice high school and college ball parks, and maybe take some pics. I’d also like to get down to Knoxville and see the Lake County Captains once before the season is over, but they only have three games, one against something called the Delmarva Shorebirds. Ahhhh, the minors. I feel like I am in the minors for life (including the pay), so I identify.

Spencer’s Universalism: First, as always, thank you, JackH. I love to hear the classic teaching of the church expressed by Jack. He does it so well. Peter Kreeft has written several books with Socrates as the representative of the Christian point of view. Socrates Meets Jesus is a great one. The RCC has this whole issue much more prominent in their theology than Protestants, but they do not approach it the same way as I do. Augustine had some things to say about this, as did many who meditated on John 1, and the wider meaning of the Logos for salvation.

OK. I am a universalist in some ways. I believe in universal depravity, including for Indians before 1492 (politically incorrect date, so sue me), the mentally handicapped, children, etc. Phillip: That is what I mean by, “If anyone deserves to go to hell I do.” I have nothing of merit in me. In that regard, I am a universalist.

I am a universalist in believing that anyone, anywhere, anytime can be saved. I do not believe this sentence: “No one living in America before 1492 could be saved.” I believe anyone who exercises true faith (which is a gift) towards as much of God as they truly understand (which is also a gift) can be saved by grace (which is a gift) and solely by the merits of Christ alone. (Who they may know or not, depending on if preaching/teaching were possible or clear or understandable.)

Bill misunderstands my “wide door” description, I believe. I am referring to the fact that all Christian preaching is very imperfect and incomplete, and ultimately, the Kingdom is build by God’s sovereign grace, and is not limited to places where preachers get it right and the congregation understands everything that is said. The pathetic state of Gospel presentation in most of the world (such as here in Clay County, Ky) is not a hindrance to the God of the Bible, who gives the gift of true saving faith to children, idiots, pagans, and the poor people who have to hear terrible preaching like that in the hollers and hills of Eastern Ky.

I am a universalist, in that I believe the merits of Christ- the cosmic Logos- are sufficient to save everyone. Those who may not know Christ by name or know him correctly, may still be saved, if they place their faith in what they DO TRULY KNOW about Christ, by God’s grace, which may be very, very little. You guys have GOT to stop saying that I am advocating some kind of sincere belief in the tenets of other religions. I AM NOT. The exclusivist texts quoted by Bill and Alex do not say that only those whohear of Christ and understand 85% or more of who he is can be saved. (Many cannot hear, and when they hear, do not understand, or what they hear is mangled badly.) These texts says there is no other name by which anyone is ever saved. All who are saved- from Abraham to today- are saved the same way: By Christ alone, through faith alone, through grace alone. Abraham wasn’t saved by special revelation. Show me a text that says Abraham was saved by special revelation. Abraham. Melcheziwhat’shisname. Enoch. They were all saved JUST LIKE ME AND YOU and are held up in the New Testament as examples of faith FOR ME NOW. That’s the point of using Abraham in Romans, and talking about those who are saved by faith apart from the law. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Enoch walked with God, and God took him. (Not the gods of their culture. THE God.) I believe this happened. I believe it can and does happen now, as persons, by God’s sovereign grace, place their faith (gift) in what light they do have about the true God, from whatever source God may have placed in their lives.

Really dudes, I don’t want to convert you, but I first started thinking of this years ago as a youth minister when a church member with a severely retarded son brought the boy to be baptized. I vigorously opposed it at the time, made a kind of butt of myself as the zealous young defender of the faith. My pastor baptized him anyway, and I was horrified. At the time, I thought it was about the Gospel, etc. I was dead wrong. It was about God’s awesome saving mercy in Christ. It was about the marvelous GIFT of salvation.

Be careful, guys, when you imply that God cannot save people who cannot understand because of mental limitation, historical/cultural circumstance or otherwise not understanding enough. That “enough” is the problem. We are not saved by right proclamation or some checklist. Grace, through faith, by Christ. Think about it. Same with saying only good preaching to smart-enough people is necessary. I don’t think you really want to go down that road. It leads right to the hyper-Arminian camp, and that is why I am sorry Dr. Piper has decided to read the Bible like a dispensationalist on this issue. He apparently thinks that we need a certain amount of “wretched urgency” to fuel missions. I think he has forgotten the glory of the Redeemer and, as he occasionally tends to do, is making a place for human zeal and comprehension.

Gotta work. And prayer for my daughter, who is driving in Louisville for the first time today.

Matthew,

Even a stupid yankee like me knows that just because you live in AR. that you have no need to be ashamed for them, other than they are part of the human race. If they are not ashamed of themselves I can’t hold it against other residents of the state.

I’ve had some less than good experiences down south, but it sure isn’t all the people. In fact, as a rule, where I live in Holland, MI. is generally one of the rudest bunch of people I have ever seen, bad drivers too. Even 90 miles west in Lansing they are better drivers. I have found generally that people down south are much friendlier than they are up here.

I have tons of Michigan people to be ashamed of..

Geoffery Feiger
Ted Nugent
The Detroit Lions
The Detroit Tigers<——glad I stopped watching years ago.
The other dude from the Ok. bombing,, Nichols??
Many guests on Jerry Springer.

I checked their site out for awhile last night (thanks for the link Alex) and it dawned on me,,!! these are not humans.. they are pods and smart ones too as far as vegtables go, they even know their seedline, which is more than I can say for my garden. Proving once again my theory that GM foods are not good for you.

Alex, near Harrison, AR (the mailing address for that ridiculous web site) is Zinc, AR. Thom Robb, (here in this article) is the Grand Wizard of the KKK and he lives in Zinc. I hate that they live in my state and am ashamed of him and people like the folks you linked. I break wind in their general direction.

Is there some unmistakable sign that a person is one of God’s elect, some visible something that allows us to accurately say “Yes, this person is one the elect”?

Nope.

That’s the whole point of the parable of the wheat and tares. ————————I sat drinking my coffee today, watching the people go by on the High Street, and I could not help but rejoice at the wonder and glory of God’s creation. People of every size, shape, age and colour here on the streets of London, most of them utterly ignorant of the glorious Gospel, but still manifestations of the glory of our God. Some are vessels made for dishonour, some for honour, but all still reflect the wisdom, majesty and genius of the Creator.

To paraphrase Georg Freidrich Handel, the kingdoms of this world are inevitably becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. This triumph of the Kingdom is more certain and more sure than the sun rising tomorrow morning. Some day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Between now and that glorious day, absolutely no institution on earth or in the heavens will be able to resist the advance of the Kingdom through the agency of the Church. We can look back through history and see that the Church has triumphed against every human institution that tried to stand against it, and we can be equally certain that the Church will continue to overcome in the future. Ours is a glorious hope, no matter how bleak the present or uncertain the future seems to be.

Is it just me, or is this a bit disturbing?

You know what they say about Arkansas: “The ’s’ is silent, just like our women.” Too bad they don’t wear headcoverings… (JN)

Phillip: I didn’t include the blue laws for a few reasons. One, even if you can’t buy liquor or shop in some stores, you aren’t bound by law to keep the day holy. Two, Sunday isn’t the Sabbath.

Camps: I dunno. The camps I attended down South were pretty solid. It started with a youth camp started up by Christian Believers United (a charismatic group) which came, went away, came back, and then did some strange changes to where they’re just not much anymore. Fortunately, the really good camps were picked up by my buddy’s dad, John Hobbs and Maranatha Ministries (who host my site). Those camps are consistently good experiences for the kids, and sex is rarely a problem. The worst trouble we had when I was a counselor was a tie between the kid who ran off to visit some local friends for his ganja fix – or the boy’s cabin that used all the TP except something like 2 rolls to TP a cabin they shared a bathroom with. One roll went missing, and was discovered wrapped around a kid and his bunk the next day.

That camp’s now goin’ strong and doing some great ministry.

Michael: I feel much more comfortable myself with a variation on your statement. “If anyone deserves to go to hell, I do. If God can save me, He can save anybody.” The way you have stated it, one could in fact read it as an endorsement of universalism, which is obviously not your intention given your previous statement.

I don’t know much about camps and sex, except that if that’s true, I definitely went to the wrong camp. Then again, I think the only time I went to camp was when I was eight, so perhaps it was only the “counselors” behind the boatshed, while the rest of us were oblivious.

Bill: Here in Texas, we’ve got Sabbath laws, only they call them “blue laws.” Try buying liquor on a Sunday in Texas and you’ll see what I mean. Try buying even beer or wine on Sunday before noon and you’ll find out, too.

Still, Eugene Volokh, a lawyer, has previously pointed out that only three of the commandments have equivalent laws today (he doesn’t count the Sabbath), with a few states having laws on the books against adultery, too. I referenced this from a Blogcritics post back in April, but I won’t link to it because I’m sure that the text content of the page will offend somebody out there. If I’m going to offend somebody, I want it to be enjoyable, and this is just crudeness on someone else’s part, so why bother?

Richard,

“I’m against any sort of Puritan gestures. People get to choose what they want to do—eat foie gras, have abortions, read and write whatever they want. ”

“Should we have the foi gras, dear?”

“No, let’s have an abortion instead.”

“Well, I want to be home in time to write another chapter in my novel …”

Michael, your anti-camp stance is of course colored by the limited and underprivileged camp experience you’ve had growing up in the third world the South. It’s so damn hot down there that everything is about sex. Or maybe you got confused from the heat, and were thinking of Steve Camp? Real camps keep the girls away. Far away. Like, “in the next county” awayThe one I went to was one of the highlights of my life. I can’t wait until my son is old enough to go. (In fact, I’m not waiting. I’ve requested permission to camp on the grounds in the off-season next fall, and if granted I plan to take Jamie there for a few days.

San Francisco chefs rethink the menu following foie gras related violence

Mike an’ Bill: In a sense, you could say that the door is both infinitely wide, and infinitely narrow. Narrow in the sense that we know that most of our fellow humans won’t be saved. Wide in the sense that once God decides to lay claim to a soul, He will have His way.

Michael: What’s this about hacking off a group of campers? Nosy people (like me) want the whole story. And camp isn’t all about sex. Beatdowns of the weaker kids also plays a large part.

“I just think that if anyone can be saved under my preaching, the door must be pretty wide. ”

But the door isn’t wide at all. You’re thinking of that other door (gate). The door to life is narrow and there are few that find it. (and I’m not sure what the wideness of the door has to do with it).

Abraham had a direct revelation of God where he said “Hi Abram, I’m God and now you’re working for me. The first thing you need to do is move.” If God wants to do that who can stop him? We just don’t have any reason to believe that he does do that under the new covenant.

Alex: I’m not sure we want anyone that sober in this bar being theologically astute. Is there like a Chucky Cheeze’s game room adjacent to this place? Somewhere Alex can get a Dr. Pepper? (jn)

By the way, I am not a universalist. I just think that if anyone can be saved under my preaching, the door must be pretty wide. This is all about the sovereignty of God in salvation by grace, through faith, by the merits of Christ. So call me whatever. But I am not a universalist.

If anyone can go to hell, I will. If I can be saved, anyone can be saved.

Abraham, boys. Abraham.

I think this fascination with a public display of the Ten Commandments by people who do not use them in church, know them or attempt to live by most of them is very strange. It is some kind of brain fever.

Camp: I have logged a significant amount of my life in camp. Never again. Camp director. Camp pastor (where I made one group so mad they attempted to leave in the middle of the week.) Camp recreation leader. Camp Guru. Many other things. Camp is about sex. It’s that simple. Nothing remotely related to Christianity ever happens. Once I used Van Halen’s “Dancing In The Streets” as a wake up call.

Scott: You’re right and I have heard of places like that. However if Eric were here he would tell you that profanity is not a violation of that commandment, which dealt more with swearing an oath by God and not keeping it.

I certainly don’t want to come across as anti-decalogue but I get annoyed when we treat them almost like an idol. These were laws given to the Jews as part of a whole monster load of laws. Christians love to say that we aren’t under the Law, and yet we want the Law posted everywhere we go. It’s a Theonomist’s dream.

Michael: You seem to forget that I am not of legal age to buy you a Guinness…

Alex: The heightened spiritual atmosphere of camp has made you too sure of yourself. I’m not wrong. You are. :-) You are too young to speak to me in that surly tone without buying me a Guinness first. I have high blood pressure and my heart sometimes skips beats. You don’t want to be responsible for a tragedy that would enrich my family by six figures.

I’m off to the ball park for a night with the family. I’ll contemplate my excommunication by Alex and Bill, and sooth the wounds with a Kahn’s Dog and a new cap.

Bill MacK (on the 10 Commandments): One quick correction… in many states, it is technically illegal to curse in public places. Therefore, commandment #3 could partially come into play. But otherwise, you’re right. And as much as I’d love to see a monument to the 10 Commandments, I recognize that our government is a secular government for a reason, and I trust that God will have the ability to work His will through that government, whether we stick a monument up to a bunch of laws we mostly don’t follow anymore or not.

I just got back from a day at high school summer camp, and boy am I glad to be away from all of that. The drama, the errant theology, the altar calls, the terrible-yet-rockin praise band.

Philip raises an interesting point about the majority of Scriptural support for Trinitarianism being in John’s Gospel. But something rather interesting that I have learned is the ambiguity involved in certain passages concerning God in the Old Testament.

For instance, take the shema declaration you mentioned. “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” This is the great monotheistic battle cry for the Jews. But there is an interesting ambiguity involved in the Hebrew word used for “one.” There are two words in Hebrew for expressing two different concepts of oneness; they are ehad and yahidh. Ehad is used to express a oneness involving a plurality of parts. It is used in Genesis 2:24 when Moses explains that man and woman shall become one (ehad) flesh. It’s also used in reference to army units (which are clearly composed of parts).

Then of course there are all those cryptic “let us” passages (like in Genesis). Then there is also the usage of the plural Elohim for God rather than the singular El. This last point is especially strange considering that in all ancient Near Eastern religious literature, only the Hebrews used the plural word for God.

Michael is wrong in saying that people can be saved without hearing the Gospel (though in danger of hellfire he isn’t – JN). Consider the words of Paul in Romans 10:14-17, especially verse 17. Of course, he has to go and ruin my exegesis with verse 18, but I think there he is referring to the Israelites, not the Flecherro tribe in the Amazon jungle.

Jim: Well, personally I’m not a cessasionist or a dispensationalist, and, like you, I do accept women in leadership roles in the church. It just seems that when you talk about eternal destiny, there’s a lot more at stake than whether you speak in tongues or not , or hire a woman preacher. My heart and my feelings say that everyone will be saved, but I don’t trust my own heart or my own feelings. A serial killer could say that in his heart he believed God told him to kill people. I believe we need the objectivity of God’s Word, and right now you’re still left with the sheep and the goats, the lake of fire, and all that other stuff that really I wish weren’t in there. But they are.

The really troublesome thing to me is that Jesus talked a lot about hell, and about people going there. To disbelieve those passages, you have to take one of two positions, 1) That Jesus was wrong or lying, which then would call into question his divinity (and the authors of the book I mentioned explicitly deny the divinity of Christ and the Trinity, which some, like Michael, would put them in the category of non-Christians), or 2) That Jesus actually didn’t say those things, that they were put in Jesus’ mouth by the early church, i.e., the Jesus Seminar solution. But if those sayings about hell were products of the early church, who is to say that Jesus’ saying that sound “universalist” (“If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me,” the parable of the wedding feast—that is, the version without the man not in the wedding garment who was thrown into the darkness) weren’t also put in Jesus’ mouth by the early church?

Because of these things, I still can’t go the univeralist route, as much as I’d like to.

About this 10 commandments thing. It’s amazing how many people think displaying the 10 commandments is going to be the salvation of our country. It’s also amazing to me how many people say that the foundation of our country and our laws rest on the 10 commandments. I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.

1. You Shall Have No Other gods Before Me. No such laws exist in our country nor ever have as far as I know, but I could be wrong.

2. No Graven Images: No such laws or principles.

3. No taking God’s name in vain: No such laws.

4. Keep the Sabbath Holy: No such laws.

5. Honor Father and Mother: No such laws.

6. Don’t Murder: Bingo. We’ve finally found one.

7. Don’t Committ Adultery: No such laws.

8. Don’t Steal: OK We’ve found two.

9. Don’t bear false witness: We’ve found three if you take this to mean a court setting, but we have no laws against lying.

10. Don’t Covet: Please.

Now I’m no historian so it wouldn’t surprise me if some of these commandments might be on paper somewhere and forgotten, but essentially we have laws which coincide with 2.5-3 of the commandments.

In fact, some of these commandments are in strict violation of the type of religious freedom which led people to found and populate this country.

So what am I missing?

Cal Thomas on Justice Roy Moore.

I made these exact same arguments to a lady two days ago, here at work.

We believe that God, from the beginning, in His own good pleasure, gave to His Son a people, an innumberable multitude, chosen in Christ unto holiness, service, and salvation; we believe that all who come to years of discretion can receive this salvation only through faith and repentance; and we believe that all who die in infancy, and all others given by the Father to the Son who are beyond the reach of outward means of grace, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who works when and where and how He pleases.
Article VII, A Manual of Faith and Life, Copyright 1937, by the Presbyterian Board of Christian Education.

Jim: Truly belief is a response to what the Holy Spirit has done in us, ie: regeneration. But regeneration is not salvation. The elect and the saved are two different categories although the saved are a subset of the elect. The elect are the elect from all eternity, but the saved are those who have repented, believed, and confessed. It is still the work of God, but it is the work of God completed in that individual. I don’t like the use the word completed because God will continue to work in that individual all his/her life, but I think you know what I mean.

That’s why I’m not certain Cornelius was saved before Peter came to him. One of the elect? Certainly. But God finished the work in the sending of Peter and the proclamation of the Gospel. Cornelius dying before Peter got there wasn’t an option.

On software: Computers suck. I’m sorry, Michael. My home windows box is currently dead, but at least I think I’ll be able to fix it without losing data. I hope. I’m debating buying a 250GB hard disk to do online backups (my two iMac drives and my windows drive would fit nicely on this one with 30GB to spare.) As it is, I have very little backed up. Scary.

I have the very expensive Office suite installed on my iMac. It’s quite nice, I use it regularly. My wife chooses to use the bundled AppleWorks that came pre-installed on the thing. I have created nice big beautiful icons for her to easily access Excel and Word, and yet still she uses AppleWorks. I have a feeling she’d like OpenOffice. I think I’ll fink it on the thing and give it a shot this weekend.

On Moses and those thieving Israelis: Like many others, I watched the Nefertiti special on Discovery recently, and I was struck by the belief, since strengthened by just a little bit of research, that Nefertiti was the Pharoah’s wife when Moses led the people of Israel out of Egypt. There was a massive upheaval of some sort during her husband Akhenaton’s reign, including at least one major plague, depicted briefly on Discovery with an image of people painting a red X on a door. Presumably that was to mark a house hit by the plague, but I kept thinking, “No! It goes on the doorposts and lintel!” Anyway, the Pharaoh died, other male relative died very young, and she (it is suggested) ended up ruling Egypt herself under a different name. There was also a complete change of religion during the time, and Nefertiti and her husband were so hated in the end that their images were defaced in all public places after their deaths.

I’m not insisting that this must be true, any of it, but I find it fascinating. Ron Wyatt believed that he found evidence of the crossing of the Red Sea, and dated that evidence to the 18th dynasty, which lines up with Nefertiti’s time, too. I know Wyatt is considered kooky by some, but it’s interesting nonetheless. Could the exodus have happened around 1336 B.C.? I’ve seen estimates ranging from 1491 B.C. to 1275 B.C, and honestly one of the better-documented ones I’ve seen puts the Exodus in 1445 or 1446 B.C. under Amenhotep’s reign, but still this appeals to me. And it is so much less important than the question of whether unreached people are still redeemed, which is appealing after a long week. :)

Tom, now explain how the selective reading by the Universalists is somehow worse than what cessationists do with those passages that talk about the Holy Spirit and sign gifts, or what dispensationalists do with the Sermon on the Mount and whole bits of Romans, or what some Calvinists do with the book of James, or, for that matter, what I do with Paul on women in leadership roles.

[Dead horse alert] On Jesus’ exclusive claims, “No one comes to the Father except by me,” you have to combine it with “Those whom the Father has given me…” In other words, salvation is God’s work. Period. You can’t save yourself, even by “believing in Jesus.” Belief is a response to what the Holy Spirit does in us.

Jim, the story you linked is hilarious. Favorite part: ”...to which the statute of limitations cannot possibly apply.” Um, actually, that’s the whole point of a statute of limitations, and the only crime universally recognized as exempt from such that I know of is murder. Are they planning on pressing charges against Moses? ‘Cause I saw Prince of Egypt, and Ralph Fiennes declared him pardoned all past, present and future crimes…

Besides, Exodus says that they asked for the stuff. Granted, the ESV at least uses the word “plundered,” but the implication I’ve always drawn from this is that the oppressors were suddenly so desperate to have them leave that they would have done anything.

Another funny point: “therefore they must return [the gold], with interest, to its owners.” I thought that the Qu’ran forbade usury? In fact, I’ve heard over and over that Jews are evil because they loan money to people with interest. Of course, I think of usury as something different from simple compound interest, but what these people are attempting to pull off is usury under pretty much any definition.

Too funny.

Speaking of universalism, I,