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| “Or how much curious and loving attention was expended by the first man who looked hard enough at the insides of trees, the entrails of cats, the hind ends of horses and the juice of pine tree to realize he could turn them all into the first fiddle. No doubt his wife urged him to get up and do something useful. I am sure that he was a stalwart enough lover of things to pay no attention at all to her nagging; but how wonderful it would have been if he had known what we know now about his dawdling. He could have silenced her with the greatest riposte of all time: Don’t bother me; I am creating the possibility of the Bach unaccompanied sonatas” (Robert Farrar Capon, The Supper of the Lamb, p. 19 HT to Doug Wilson |
On smoking: I’m with Tom and Phillip. Sinful? Not unless stupidity is sinful, then we’re all in trouble. Putting dried weeds in your mouth and setting fire to them and then sucking on them just seems, well..
On Baptism: I’m with Richard.
On pacifism:
On abortion:
On Calvinism:
Sheesh, pretty soon there won’t be room for people with all the dead horses around.
France wants to ban religious apparel in schools.
Questions: WTF are they thinking? Can anyone still pretend that secularism is actually neutral with regards to religion? And how long before some idiot in America tries this?
I usually like to read Drudge, because he’s got a good list of columnists and he generally breaks news quickly. For that reason, I put up with his dips into the tabloid world. But you know, I really didn’t need to see grainy homo-erotic pictures of Arnold’s ass this morning. Really.
Somehow I escaped taking up smoking, even though almost everyone in my family does now or used to. I dated a girl for a while in high school who smoked, and I learned to overlook the smell/taste when I kissed her, but looking back, I don’t know how. (Uh-oh: I wonder if I will get in some retroactive trouble, since I just confessed to kissing a girl at OBI [an activity that is far less harmful to people and significantly less dangerous to buildings than smoking, but which is nevertheless not allowed there]?)
I’ve thought about taking up pipe-smoking, since it doesn’t smell as bad and I am an English instructor, after all. I don’t even have any jackets with elbow patches…I need to get busy.
Anyway, I think smoking cigarettes is a nasty habit, and I don’t understand how anyone can start with all that we now know about it.
But a sin? Illegal? You’ve gotta be kidding me. The ludicrousness of the whole idea is summed up in New York and other cities’ misguided proclamations that you can’t even smoke in a bar. If that doesn’t cry overkill, I don’t know what does.
Richard: I’ll share your risk. I already own all of the Mitford books save the silly marketing one about Christmas and the most recent one which I recently noted is in paperback and will pick up for my wife for Christmas. I love them, and maybe those as much as anything else were an instrument used by God to soften me up for the Episcopal life! Long live Father Tim! (Thought I still don’t know about that new wife of his…)
I smoked from when I was 16 until I was 23. At the time I quit, I was smoking 2 packs of B&H Menthols a day. One day, I just quit. I have no idea why, although looking back, I seem to remember there being a substantial jump in prices around the time I gave it up.
I quit cold turkey. I definitely have an “addictive personality,” and I’ve struggled to overcome lots of other habits. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people who claim to be unable to quit. I don’t know the scientific or medical stuff behind it, but the bottom line is that virtually everyone I know who has quit successfully has simply quit, and virtually everyone I know who has quit because of outside pressure, or who has tried the patch, nicotine gum, Welbutrin, or some other approach has eventually gone back to smoking.
It bothers me to be around people who smoke. Originally, it was because I suffered from some respiratory troubles after I quit, and being around smokers made it worse. Now, it’s more of an annoyance, although having kids has been a factor. We’ve had a few problems with extended family because of smoking; I’m unable to sleep in a room that has been occupied by a smoker, so there are some relatives we simply don’t stay with – and they occasionally get offended. My attitude is: Too bad. Quit. I did.
I will, on very rare occasions, enjoy a cigar or a pipe. The last time was 6 years ago, though, and I don’t have much desire to do so. I don’t believe smoking is particularly sinful, but I find it very mildly offensive. For the record, there are other things that bother me more, like the (lack of regular) bathing habits of people from certain parts of the world. If someone wants to smoke in my presence, and they have the courtesy to ask, I usually don’t object unless the kids are around.
Someone mentioned the P/C attitude toward smoking. I think that’s a P/C holdover from the general view held by American fundamentalist Christians. And, as witness my post on the M word, I have a lot of problems with people who want to reduce sin to a short list of things to avoid doing.
The Best Parlor Game this Tavern Has Posted YET!
aka
What Can Episcopalians/Anglicans Do That Pentacostals/Charismatics Cannot Do
That’s a good start.
Smoking: As the old joke goes, “I only smoke when I’m on FIRE”.
I smoked cigars in college, because it was cool and it really irritated my roommate who smoked a pipe. One day while playing spades, err I mean studying, we had the great Turner Hall smokeout – cigars vs. the pipe. The cigars won.
My tobacco pleasure was Skoal and Copenhagen. I dipped from age 15 til I was 23. I quit because my first child was born and I did not want to be a “bad” example to my children. It took me about 3 months to kick it. Although it has been 19 years, when I smell Copenhagen it makes my mouth drool and I want a “dip”, sometimes pretty badly.
PWinn: I’m taking an enormous risk here! :-/ – May I suggest that you check out the Mitford series of books for a light, somewhat romanticised and enjoyable introduction to the life of an Anglican parish. (Here’s a link to an essay/ review of the Mitford books written by a seminary classmate of mine who works as a researcher with Ravi Zecharias).
Phillip: On Baptism I believe that the weight of the NT evidence and teaching is on the side of the Credo-Baptists. I don’t walk out if I’m in a church where a baby is baptised. I even say the responses and pray for the child and the parents. I would be comfortable (as I have been) being a member of a Paedo-Baptist church. But I would have difficulties being in a position in which I would regularly be called upon to perform a rite that is out of keeping with my reading of the NT. I have tried, really, to come to a Paedo-Baptist position. I would be delighted to be of one mind with the vast majority of Christians (past and present) on this issue – but I can’t.
As far as bishop Spong is concerned I would simply ignore him. He is but one man (though he does represent a substantial minority view)
On Bow Ties and Pipes: It’s so complicated to be a consistent Episcopalian! The bow tie won’t win you any points with the rector because, in my experience, it is associated more with “High” Churchmanship (see my post of last week on this topic). Trinity is very much “Low” church (in time these distinctions will become familiar to you – and you will soon begin to loathe the Tractarians ;^) Besides, it may only be a New England thing and not apply to Texas.
Now a pipe! Now there’s a proper Anglican prop! And with scotch, no less ;-)
There are some things in life you just have a “thing” against, that is just one of your pet peeves, that you just cannot stand, that you almost get irrational about. With Michael, it’s obviously anything to do with Rick Warren, among other things. With me, it’s AOL, Clear Channel radio, and smoking. I hate smoking. I loathe it. I would be happy as all git out to see it wiped off the face of the earth. When I see a female smoking, I immediately know she’s not the “one” for me, no matter how much else she has going for her. It pisses me off to see young people smoke, especially actors and singers because they are setting a bad example.
I fully realize that I’m fat, and that overeating is just as bad a “sin” as smoking. I took two puffs off a cigarette once, and immediately wondered what the hell anyone sees in this nasty habit. My dad died from emphysema, directly related to his smoking, so that could have something to do with my hatred of smoking. God made lungs for air, not smoke. Case closed.
On a more serious note regarding smoking, my father struggles with cigarettes for at least twenty years, and spent most of that time under serious church-induced guilt, because smoking is obviously a sin that’ll keep you out of heaven, according to the Assemblies of God. They say that pentecostal churches have no historical confessions, but that’s not true: The primary A/G confession was “Don’t smoke or drink or chew, or hang with those that do.”
Oh yes, I was being serious. I forgot.
Anyway, he spent most of my young life quitting repeatedly and getting angry at God for not delivering him from tobacco addiction until one day when my mother was haranguing him in her customary way and he suddenly got very angry. Like shaking, turning purple, veins bulging angry. Apparently my mother stopped mid-sentence (a first and I suspect last) and backed away, thinking she had finally pushed him over the edge of something. But he wasn’t angry at her, but rather at himself. It was as if a switch flipped in his head and he realized for the first time (I’m over-simplifying, but this is pretty much the way he tells it, too) that it was up to him and only him and it was a simple decision to make. He tore up the pack in his pocket and hasn’t smoked since. Four packs of cigarettes a day turned into a heck of a lot of chewing gum in the middle of one day, and he hasn’t looked back.
Having seen all of that while growing up, I have never been interested in smoking. I have smoked exactly one cigarette and one cigar, but Clinton-like, I didn’t inhale either time. Plus, the stench is overwhelming. You smokers have no idea. I have a coworker whose wife smokes, while he doesn’t. She also never drives his car or smoke in it while he’s driving. And yet he shows up at work after a 45-minute commute and smells like the Cracks of Doom in Mordor. There is a very good reason most hotels divide their rooms into smoking and non-smoking – once a room is smoked in, it will never be the same again. Never.
Pipes are different. I’ve longed been fascinated with pipes, though I’ve never smoked one. I could definitely envision a future in which I sit down once a month or so with a tumbler of scotch and a pipe. After the kids move out, though.
So sin? No. The people who get all worked up about OBI’s policy are saying more about themselves than anything else. Smoking just doesn’t seem very smart, but neither do a lot of other things, including overeating, which I still do, so who am I to judge others?
On Smoking: I fully support the right of any adult to poison himself or herself with tobacco products as much as with any other vile toxin. I don’t smoke, eat at McDonald’s, or drink raw sewage, but that’s my personal choice, and I won’t interfere with anyone who foolishly chooses otherwise despite all available evidence. Furthermore, I posit that Matthew has now demonstrated his excellence in the area of funerals, so I suggest him for yours.
Or as my inner Brit might say, “Are you bloody daft? Get that fag out of your sodding mouth, you twonk, or I’ll knock your teeth in!”
Richard: So Spong could be a bishop while disbelieving the deity of, well, God, but you choke at sprinkling babies? This is why it is difficult to be an optimist; the rules are stacked against the good guys.
Not that I’m making a judgment against infant baptism. I fully acknowledge that my own discomfort with it is more based on my A/G upbringing than on any particular Scriptural position.
Anyway, thanks for the bow-tie tip. Perhaps, if we don’t fit in right away, I’ll buy a bowtie and at least score points with the rector. I can see it now, as everybody coughs delicately into their hand, murmuring “suck up!” ;-)
On English: For rather obvious reasons, I prefer American English, though I admit to pronouncing “advertisement” in the British fashion. In fact, I use a few transatlantic anachronisms that I’ve picked up in my voracious reading, and I do enjoy them. I read recently that the differences between “proper” English and American English are almost all the result of one man: Noah Webster. He was adamant that we should be distinguished from the, er, distinguished gentlemen across the pond (no thought was given to the Canadians then, as now), and so he wrote his dictionary, deliberately screwing things up as he went, though reasonably consistently. Doubled consonants were cut down to singles hither, thither and yon, and words were just flat-out changed. The result is that the first Webster dictionary did not reflect common usage at the time at all, but was actually used by many writers of the day to advance the agenda of transatlantic differences.
What fun!
One of the truly strange things about our school is that we allow students to smoke. They must be high school age, approved to do so by parents and supplied with cigarettes by parents. They cannot trade or sell cigarettes to one another, they cannot smoke at school, and they must smoke in one designated area. The longer they are here, the less access to smokes they are allowed. We run a “Stop Smoking” group, and we see most of the students quit smoking if they stay with us two years or more. Breaking the smoking rules will get you suspended, cost you an athletic letter or even get you expelled. But we do allow it.
This is, of course, outrageous, to a lot of Christians. It costs us students and support from some quarters, but it is part of our values that I agree with for one reason only. It allows us to take some students who other schools will not take. I don’t believe a student should be denied admission over smoking. We get a lot of kids sent out of Christian (and increasingly, public, schools) just because of smoking rules. Two years ago, a religious fanatic NJ lawyer attempted to sue us over this, but wasn’t successful. Given the direction of society, we will one day have to change this rule, but for now I support it and hundreds of students we have accepted and helped over the years are grateful as well.
I have all the respect in the world for people who just don’t like smoking. I grew up around it and disliked it then and now. I have smoked a pipe in the past, but not lately. What I don’t like are the purveyers of the nanny state taking over private lives and the rights of businesses. I don’t like Christians acting as if not smoking is part of the Gospel. I don’t like treating smokers like they are outstanding sinners.
My opinion is best expressed in the oft quoted Spencerism: you people who smoke don’t know how bad you stink. Even so, the Kentucky Tobacco farmer thanks you for your support.
I love smoking, as long as it is me smoking. When others do it.. it’s a nasty vile habit.
I need to say again that I do not smoke but one or two a year.
For the record I loathe smoking (Asthma will do that to you). However here’s a gem from the great J. Gresham Machen:
“The fellows are in my room now on the last Sunday night, smoking the cigars and eating the oranges which it has been the greatest delight I ever had to provide whenever possible. My idea of delight is a Princeton room full of fellows smoking. When I think what a wonderful aid tobacco is to friendship and Christian patience, I have sometimes regretted that I never began to smoke”. J. Gresham Machen: A Biographical Memoir, p. 85. – quoted in John Piper’s fine mini-biog of Machen – a good read, worth anyone’s time.
PWinn:RE: Infant Baptism – This is the reason I can’t be an Anglican pastor. Bill and I had the most spirited conversations about this.
RE: Bow ties - During my days at Christ Episcopal Church of Hamilton and Wenham, Massachussetts (where Bill was my pastor as well as my seminary mentor), bow ties were all the rage amongst a certain type of sophisticated, high-church, genuflecting, sherry drinking, Inklings reading, Episcopalian. I wear one from time to time and would love to receive a new one at Christmas :^).
Oh BTW, given your new circumstances I would shy away from any mention of bishop abuse ;-)
Michael: The British (and Canadian) version of English is superior in every way. (JN) Get those extra “u”s in there. BTW it is interesting how Jack Chick, in his tracts, always refers to Jesus as “Saviour” (with the “U”). Why? Bacause as a consistent KJV 1611-only guy he must believe that this is the only acceptable way to spell this word. Interesting.
Michael: I’m not sure whether to be grateful or egregiously insulted. Probably more of the former, since I more or less invite such a response by blogging about my romantic misadventures.
Tim, that’s exactly how I am with smoking. I smoke when I’m with other smokers, and I do occasionally buy a pack. But once one pack’s gone, I will easily go a month or two before smoking again.
And there’s nothing as sweet as a good, rich cigar. Mmmmmm.
By the way, any of you who are feeling a little too cheerful, just stop over at JS’s blog and read about his romantic disappointments. This will be sure to sell more spirits here in the tavern. In fact, we need to put on some Sinatra and get this young man some advice from men more experienced in wooing women.
My advice: Run over the boyfriends in a large construction vehicle. Or, for something less violent, print up several copies of Jim’s M post, and hand them out with your phone number printed at the bottom under the line “Please- don’t make me live like this.” (SW)
Hmmm, I actually enjoy smoking, but I don’t do it. I am one of the few people I have ever met that can smoke and not smoke without any addictions.
I had my 1st smoke at 5 years old and have been what is called a “party” smoker ever since. At my peak I did a pack a week for about a month, then I went years before having another one. I do not like the cheap ones either,, give me a Camel. I have had one cigarette in the last 12 months.
I just truly enjoy it sometimes, but I am not addicted nor do I crave them. Same with Cigars.. actually same with alcohol, except I need to drink more.
On the M word: Discerning Reader can, of course, choose to carry or not carry any particular book for any particular reason, and their choice to avoid this one isn’t going to affect my future purchase patterns (I’m not a customer.) If I was to plug a particular bookseller, it would probably be either Powells (with whom I have a partnership, and thus financial ties, so if you click this link and buy a book you make me money) or Splintered Light (who don’t have a strong web presence, but have ties to Mars Hill Audio.) But in any case, let’s be real: with a topic like this, there are basically three positions one can take:
Now, if the folks at DR take the first position – that M isn’t a matter of conscience, and nobody can believe it is – then IMHO they are open to the charge of being legalistic. I’m not going to make the effort to prove that they are, but my argument (if I were to make it) would probably at some point get around to the idea that holding this view ultimately makes God into a sadist: he specifically makes a particular activity wrong in any situation, even though it can and has been performed by virtually all male humans (and probably most females too, but I’ll defer to a woman to say so,) and even though it can and has been performed by individuals who no one would reasonably consider responsible for their actions (infants, mentally handicapped individuals, etc.) I’d then go on to point out that it’s hard to defend the position that M is sin without coming to the conclusion that any male who experiences an erection outside his marriage bed is sinning. And then I’d point out that typically in the case of sexual sin issues, the loudest protesters against a particular activity are the worst offenders (cf. Jimmy Swaggart, pre-fall.)
On the other hand, if the critique is that The Struggle simply doesn’t make the case for M being a matter of conscience, that’s legitimate criticism.
Personally, I think that the whole question of whether a particular activity is “sin” misses the point. Sinful people sin. Liars lie, as Al Franken both points out and illustrates so well. Cheaters cheat. Bloggers swear at the idiot driving too slow ahead of them, even though they know the car just pulled out of the church lot ahead of them, and probably is driven by a brother. Christians over-eat. They are unloving. They pass moral judgment on others in a sinful spirit of false moral superiority. Sin isn’t just bad behavior. Labor for years to overcome masturbation, and when you are done, if you make it, you are a sinner who doesn’t masturbate, which probably means you’ll end up in a really boring part of hell.
And guess what? The blood of Jesus is sufficient to take away all unrighteousness. Even the high-handed moral Pharisaism of Internet bookstore owners. And the sardonic, vicious satire of mean-spirited bloggers.
I hate smoking.
Cigarette moke makes me sick.
BLECH.
runs away
I could say so many jokes from todays postings.. I w-i-l—l re——si—-st….
This makes me want to start smoking..
I’m sure it’s for the children..
Phillip Winn, All I can say is that you have entirely too much time on your hands! But thanks for the magazine review, because now I don’t have to read it myself!
Episcopal: Adjective
Episcopalian: Noun
Anglican: Both
Another proof of the superiority of the British version of English.
Matthew: Bow ties? The BHT Christmas wheels are turning.
I didn’t mean to cast aspersions on any book of the OT, especially Jeremiah or Isaiah. I love those books and preach from many of their texts. But I wouldn’t try to take my church straight through either one verse by verse in sermon time. In a class where I could take my time….absolutely.
1) Bow ties are cool and I typically wear them rather than a regular tie. Yes, I can tie one myself amd I usually buy them at the Brooks Brothers store in Memphis. They’re usually always on sale because I’m the only one who buys them.
2) C’mon, Phillip. It’s bishop burping, not beating.
3) Two of my favorite classes in seminary were a) Jeremiah and b) the Minor Prophets. I would preach/teach from them any day of the week. I see a lot of grace in all of those books and a lot of judgment of sin.
4) Thanks for the funeral advice, Michael and Richard. I used one text from Michael’s list and one from our Book of Worship (only after consulting my copy of the 1662 BCP) and employed both of Richard’s bits of advice. Everything went well. Thanks
Ken: Yeah, I did note that they’re thorough whack-jobs, but I’ve wondered for years about that parable, and that’s the first thing I’ve seen that really addresses it. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, they say, though in the age of digital, even that isn’t true unless the clock stops and then restarts at exactly midnight. Which, if you think about it, there’s a 1 in 1440 chance of happening, which is less than .07% likely.
Phillip: Concerning the Lazarus parable, you might want to read what the Christadelphians believe. Here are some teachings that they reject..
Es: I can’t play, since I have known only one Episcopal in my life. He is an attorney, who does not believe the Holy Scriptures to be inspired by God, believes that other religions are “valid” ways to be right with God. He and I used to work for the same company, and we had many discussions concerning the Bible and religion. He’s a nice guy, though. Nice for an attorney anyway.
Michael: I may be the wrong person to compete in this parlor game, since I’m learning myself, but I can think of one right off: I can baptize my children now! Not that I will, but I have the freedom to do so.
And apparently I may experience a new freedom to wear bow ties. I’m still a little confused by that one. :-)
P/Cs often kneel in church, though not in unison, so I guess the “in unison” part, or the “during communion” part is new.
Were I a pastor, the chugging of wine at the end of communion would be new. Come to think of it, I don’t know of any P/C groups or churches that actually approve of drinking at all, though I’m sure that they must exist. Getting liquored up as part of an Holy Sacrament is definitely new, though.
1. Es can be filthy rich without having to attribute it to following the advice of Kenneth Copeland.
2. Es can march around doing odd things in church without claiming it was the Toronto Blessing.
3. Es can drink wine without giving it a spiritual significance.
Would anyone like to take a stab at today’s Parlor Game: “What things can Episcopalians do (in good conscience) that P/Cs can’t- or shouldn’t?” PWinn needs to know all the doors that are opening here. JACK JACK JACK COME OUT AND HELP US!!!!
Michael: I wore glasses as a child, but now I don’t. Pre-puberty: glasses, post-puberty: no glasses. I’m just saying, that’s all.
The big point I failed to include: We are called to preach and teach the Gospel, not the Bible. The Bible and the Gospel are not the same. The Gospel is the message of the Bible. The inspiration of scripture is God’s direction of the creation of scripture so it presents the Gospel. We aren’t saved by Obadiah. But if Obadiah can help me understand the Gospel- and it can- then teach it, but in the context of the Gospel. I hear many preachers who preach the Bible but not the Gospel. They are giving principles, and illustrations, and experiences and stories. That is- compared to the Gospel- a waste of time.
Michael: The BHT can be an e-church only so long as you don’t expect all of us to tithe the tavern-master!
And quit picking on freshly dead guys like Ken Hagin. Give his body a few weeks to, um, settle in first. One of his followers might still raise him from the dead using the power of his or her words! Hey! There’s an idea for Matthew to try! (JN)
I have truly enjoyed a series of teaching on the structure of the tabernacle. I can’t remember a blessed word of it, and it probably hasn’t affected my life in any way, but it was really neat at the time. Anybody who teaches or preaches from Job is just asking for trouble. The NT books are easier than the OT books, but as I learned while digging deeply into Matthew 24, even those require much more study than is obvious to the non-seminary-educated.
On a related topic, I recently came across an interesting essay on the “parable” of the rich man and Lazarus. Perhaps everybody but me has heard of this already, but it was new to me. ‘Twould explain a lot, since that “parable” has always confused me on more way than one. I’ll wait for the wisest of the Tavern regulars to let me know what I should think. I’m too tired to form actual original thought all by myself.
Your illustration is nice, too. Better than the one I learned in Bible College. Actually, I can’t remember the overview drawing I was taught in Bible College, and I’ll probably remember yours more easily.
(Notice how politely I didn’t respond to the typo/swearing jab? It’s a kinder, gentler, more episcopal pwinn!)
JS: Ask and ye shall receive. Well, not really, but the house church I grew up in once had a visiting preacher who spent several weeks of study on Obadiah. He spent about a year on those itty-bitty books at the end of the OT, and was pretty good as I recall.
I REALLY like the new Episcopal Phillip. Swearing. Leading the charge in skewering the Movementarians or whoever they are. Commenting on Church history over at W6. Phillip is the man. I’m putting him in charge of the BHT e-church. Wait….we are kind of an e-church, aren’t we?
Let’s hope Matthew doesn’t use that magazine review in his graveside service. I have friends who “speak to” weather and everything else. It is one of the reasons I wrote the piece on not being able to talk to P/Cs.
Richard will no doubt be summoned before some Baptist tribunal to answer for his crimes. And yes, I too thought the review was probably a little over the top. The “M” word is a frequent topic one must comment on when working with “yewts” and I am afraid my yawning attitude towards the subject is evidence of damnation. (Of course, I still have excellent eyesight, for anyone who cares.) But I do appreciate and support Rob and I think he is totally right to say exactly what he thinks. (Now…where are those National Geographics?)
Bill: Ahhh, Biblical theology and preaching. I’ll dive right in. (The air being cleared of the odor of dead horse the place is much more tolerable.)
Our affirmation that all scripture is inspired, that all of it speaks of Christ and that all is comprehensible with the enlightenment of the Spirit does not mean it’s all easy or even equally profitable to teach in every situation. This actually gets into the subject of an educated clergy a bit, because IMO great harm has often been done when men like Kenneth Hagin have handled the scriptures out of pure ignorance but with a claim of divine anointing. Of course, these types free themselves from responsibility to the larger church, and therefore can’t be corrected when they find all kinds of nonsense in the Bible. But we have to ask, should everything be taught anytime and by anybody?
I’ll be honest. There is a lot of the Bible I would never tackle in the pulpit, because even an hour of sermon time isn’t enough. And frankly, worship may not be the place to work towards understanding Leviticus for 30 weeks. Not to mention that many ministers and teachers simply are not equipped to take on an Ezekiel. I’m sure some of you have sat under preachers who tried to diagram the tabernacle curtain rings or dissect the various feasts and you wondered where the goofball got off thinking this was preaching?
I feel strongly about this because someone I minister with preaches through Old Testament books, verse by verse, with our students. He is a seminary educated guy who can handle Jeremiah and Isaiah, but what convinces him that he can do what Calvin and Luther did- and with a bunch of 6-12th graders- is a great puzzle to me. But its his call, not mine. (He has taken them through Isaiah, and is now in Jeremiah.) There are some Biblical books that can be handled compotently by the average educated (or even well read) pastor in a sustained series. Genesis. Exodus. I and II Samuel. The Gospels. The major Epistles. But this is not light work.
So I would counsel avoiding a lot of things under certain conditions and considerations. If I go to a church and the guy is on his 65th message from Job, I’m going to listen and hear him out, but I am suspecting some ego here.
I teach through books in my Sunday a.m. Bible study for staff. Mark (which I also did at church for two years.) Galatians. I Peter. Job. 50+ Psalms. Ecclesiastes. Revelation. Hebrews. But this is hard work, and most preachers can’t or won’t do the work. And in my opinion, they should stay away from the harder, more historically demanding OT literature.
There is an illustration I use in my Bible survey class. I draw seven mountain peaks. Then lower, many hills, and finally a vast plain. The seven peaks are Creation/Fall/Flood/Abraham/Exodus/Jesus/Judgement. The seven major high points in the Bible’s story line. Understanding these parts of the Bible introduces us to all the major issues and answers. I tell my kids that if they understand what is happening here, they can get the overall point of the Bible. The hills are things that are helpful and interesting, beautiful and true, but not as vital. Psalms. The Epistles. Major laws. Prophecies. Miracles. Then there is all that history and law and detail that many find boring. It has an important part to play in the Bible’s story, but hey- if a person doesn’t know who Hezikiah is it won’t keep him from understanding scripture.
Bill, I’m waiting for someone to do an in-depth, verse-by-verse study of Obadiah. Judgement against Edom is relevant in just so many ways.
Enormous praise: I just found out that I’m being allowed to keep a scholarship that I had written off as lost. I’m no longer eligible for it, and wrote the funding agency several weeks ago telling them so. Today, I found out the money had been disbursed to me, so I called them to let them know their mistake. But they said that I could go ahead and keep it. Wow. That’s a full-ride scholarship for this last quarter, and the possibility of an extended trip to Romania for me. Praise God!
Jesse: While at Mardel last night searching for a 1928 Book of Common Prayer (they had only the 1979 edition), I noticed both “The Prayer of Jabez for Kids” and “The Prayer of Jabez for Young Readers”. My mind began to spin, trying to determine whether the first title was for kids not yet old enough to read, or if maybe the “Young Readers” edition was for people in their teens. Nope, because I found “The Prayer of Jabez for Teens” on another shelf. I said all that to say this: The Mantra of Jabez made me laugh out loud, and now my coworkers are watching me suspiciously as I wipe my eyes. Thanks!
Ken: Thanks. I know it wasn’t quite as good as Scott would have done, but I did try. Personally, I think that the material just, um, provides its own humor.
Richard: On Sundays, of course, Bill wears a fancy robe, so I’ve missed out on the bowtie experience. However, I did reserve a spot at tomorrow night’s mid-week service, so perhaps I’ll see him in more casual garb then. And don’t worry about the recommendation, I’ll never consider it sourly. Even if the Episcopal is the ruin of me, I know that you recommended it with no ill will, and then I still made my own choice. Er, as much as I have “free will,” that is.
On pud-pulling: James Dobson (who is often wrong, though not quite so often as Pat Robertson) said about masturbation in his book Bringing Up Boys that something like 98% of all boys masturbate, and the other 2% have been known to lie. What bearing exactly that has on the Discerning Reader reaction or overreaction, I have no idea, but I guess I dare to talk about this, at least! Having not read the book in question, it is hard for me to judge, since the author doesn’t go to great lengths to actually answer the criticism, apparently preferring instead to attack the critic. The best that I can piece together is that Dr. Steve is non-judgmental on the subject, apparently considering bishop-beating to be something less than a definite sin, a view that I know is shared by several members of the Tavern, and perhaps not just because most of us are or were boys (see Dobson earlier in this paragraph). Mr. Reader, on the other hand, is pretty adamant that monkeys should not be spanked outside the bondage, er, bonds of wedlock, at least not by the monkey himself. Or something like that.
Obviously Mr. Reader is free to carry what books he wishes, and perhaps Mr. Reader did not himself free willy at any point in his life. While Dr. Dobson and I would be surprised if that were so, generally preferring to fall back on the idea that someone has simply forgotten what his life was like before he got married, I certainly don’t feel comfortable judging Mr. Reader for, um, judging Dr. Steve.
Besides, I’m married. I’m perfectly happy to consider weed-whacking a sin, now.
On the Discerning Reader website as a whole, I dismiss it out of hand because it, too, does not carry the 1928 Book of Common Prayer. Still I’m looking for a relief from the tedium of modern worship music, so I’ll keep ‘em bookmarked.
And (JN) this whole post, okay?
Here’s a question for the crowd, especially to you preachers and / or bible teachers out there. I teach the Adult Sunday School class in our church. It is basically an expository lesson on a particular book of the bible. I shy away from topical studies but I do one occasionally. I don’t use any material except my own study material. I’ve been picking the books to study pretty much at random (well, with thoughtful randomness). I want to develop a teaching plan cause I often forget how long it has been since I’ve taught a particular book.
So here’s the question: Are there books out there that you particularly shy away from, and why? For example, I probably would not do a verse by verse exposition of the book of proverbs. It’s just too redundant for me to teach effectively. Likewise Leviticus and some others. I’m just wondering what your thoughts are, or perhaps you have a plan that you would share with me.
Thanks
Phillip: I’m so glad you’re settling at Trinity. But I feel the pressure now as the one who got you started down the Canterbury Trail in the first place. Oh dear!. Seriously it must be a great place if it’s anything like Bill. I pray that the church will be a blessing for you and your family and that you will be a blessing to the church. Now, to really fit in, you’ll be needing one of these. (BTW – Your deconstruction of the Copeland rag is just hilarious).
All: Dare we talk about this? It is really refreshing to see a Christian bookseller who actually has standards for the books that he sells. I love Discerning Reader for this reason. Rob is determined not to sell garbage – even if he has to miss out on the big bucks he could rake in selling Left Behind or the Victorious Left-Handed Mountain Climber’s Study Bible. I buy from him (or from his recommendations) because I know the quality will be good. However I wonder if he might not be overreacting a bit on this one.
Phillip, I see that you’ve unmasked my secret identity as a transgendered Episcopalean devotee of Kenneth Copeland. Aside from that, thanks for the article. I haven’t laughed so hard since the last time I read the Mantra of Jabez.
I wanna interrupt the Phillip show (JN) and say that I enjoyed the Copeland magazine piece. Good job !!
Jim: I’m just fascinated by the stuff. Large numbers of people believe all of this unquestioningly, including people related to me, and I used to believe some of it myself. Looking back, I can’t even recall how I could believe any of it, try as I might to put myself back into that mindset of 13-14 years ago. Perhaps that’s just it — there was no “mindset,” just an empty space.
The other amazing thing is that there are tons of Scripture references peppering the pages. They no doubt provide an image of authenticity for the readers, but I’m just awestruck that the authors of these pieces can spend so much time read Scripture, even out of context, and not be transformed in some way by the Word. Truly, it reminds me that it is only by the grace of God and through the work of the Holy Spirit that I understand what I read at all.
That magazine was funnier than watching Bob Tilton on TV way back when, only then I would think about how many people believe that crap and get sick to my stomach. Sigh.
Our passage again this week is Mark 1:14-15. “Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the Gospel.” (RSV) We return to this important summary of the overall message of Jesus and we must prepare to grapple with the essence of what Jesus is telling every person who will listen. We cannot pretend to understand Christianity if these words do not have life-anchoring significance for us. More »
Scott: I caught a minute or two of Bill Maher’s HBO show recently, and I laughed out loud when he pointed out that the hurricane that Pat Robertson summoned to smite Disneyland had instead headed up toward his own place.
On computers, I’ve tried pretty much all of them, which is more than most people can say. My iMac will have to be pried from my cold, dead fingers. Or replaced by a faster cheaper model, whichever. :-)
But I’m glad that you agree that I have no other faults. I know none of us are sinless, though. Why, just last year I sinned! (JN)
Phillip, I was feeling bad because I spent a day just sitting around reading weblogs, but your post on the Copeland magazine has lifted my spirits. If someone can actually read through all that crap, then I must not be so bad. Thanks!
You know, Phillip, if you have a fault, it’s liking iMacs. You should try a different computer. (SW)
On a whim, I decided to pay ol’ Kenny Copeland’s website a visit. On there, there was a nifty little button that said “Speak Peace to Isabel”.
Uh… Kenny… I checked. It didn’t work. I’m pretty sure some of your puppetheaded followers went around and spoke as much peace as they could to the 600-mile wide category 2 hurricane that just lay waste to the Outer Banks of my home state, flooded my in-laws crops, and turned off my cablevision for 12 hours – which kept me from watching your show… you know, if I watched it.
Yep, I’m pretty sure there was some Faith Movementarian following the orders of The Leader, running out in their front yard and speaking peace to the Hurricane. And if they didn’t get blown off the face of the earth in the process, I’m pretty sure your message that “Isabel has stilled” is pretty reassuring. Especially since Isabel didn’t “still” until, like every other landfalling hurricane in the history of the planet, it had made landfall. And even then, it didn’t “still” right away. It remained at Tropical Storm and Tropical Depression strength for several days afterward, causing massive flooding and power outages.
Boy, am I glad you and the rest of the Movementarians were out there speaking peace to that storm. Maybe we should have all joined you, and if we had created enough hot air, Isabel would have strengthened back into a category 5 and carved a path down to your little church there in Texas.
Yessirreebobarooney – I sure am glad you were out there, because we all know that what the church really needs is a bunch of Faith Movement Charismatics all yammering at the giant hurricane. Nothing promotes Christianity like the news showing us people that think they can command the weather because Rev. Kenny told them they could. Makes the rest of us so proud of you.
Speaking of commanding the weather, Kenny, I was wondering if you’d mind. I need to stain my deck in the next couple of weeks, and I was wondering if you could speak dry air to the rain that’s forecast later this week. Pretty please? If you do and it works, I’ll personally send you a copy of “Is There Another Christ” by Jack T. Chick. He doesn’t get a lot of things right, but with your “I’m a little god” belief, I think you may want to give it a read.
Deal? Deal.
Since I seem to have the tavern to myself today, I’d like to take this opportunity to say a few words about things that I like and things that I don’t.
I like:
My wife
My kids
The BHT
My iMac
Honest people
Learning new things
I dislike:
Car alarms that blare loudly and continually for nearly half an hour starting at 11:30pm at night
The way my kids behave at Monday Morning Homeschool Co-op classes, despite being angels at all other times
Pacifism (JN)
All computers other than my iMac
People who point out my many faults
Learning about my many faults to which I’ve managed to carefully turn a blind eye
There are others, of course. This is just a start.
That which is unacceptable in today’s American discourse is still being said.
Ladies and Gentleman, I’m no Scott Ward, but Scott probably didn’t open his mailbox yesterday to find what I found: The October 2003 edition of Believer’s Voice of Victory, courtesy of Kenneth Copeland Ministries. How exactly my wife’s name ended up on their mailing list, I may never know for sure, but I suspect her mother.
Our front cover bears the headline “God’s Got You Covered” by Gloria Copeland, with a sub-hed of “Under His wings shall you trust and find refuge.” The picture, oddly enough, is of a Citation X jet flying over a very picturesque tableau. So God is a jet? His wings sure look man-made. Or maybe this is a commercial for Citation? Hmmm…this mystery will be solved.
And Michael, you can just skip to the end if you don’t feel like reading the whole meandering thing. There’s a special treat for you there that you won’t want to miss! More »
Matthew: RE: Graveside service: I have very little to add to Michael’s good words about conducting a graveside service. His selection of scriptures is also very fine (and comprehensive). Just a couple of nuts-and-bolts observations…
1) It’s useful to get the funeral director to explain what will happen so that there is no surprise for you or for the bereaved. For example – When will they lower the casket? Before the service (halfway)? During the service (as is sometimes done)? Immediately after the service? After everyone have gone home? You and/or the family may have preferences. Make those clear to the funeral director.
2) As soon as the service is over walk over to the “chief mourners” – in this case the children, grandchildren. Offer condolences, handshakes, hugs (if appropriate).
You might not have time to do this today but I suggest that you become familiar with the funeral section of the Book of Common Prayer and use what fits. The BCP is such a treasure.
I shall be praying for you as you do this service.
So I’m watching Fear Factor tonight, and what do you know but one of the contestants thanks God and starts speaking in tongues before the final stunt. He won, too. Figures—the other guy was probably Episcopalian.
Why, that movie about Luther certainly must be anti-Catholic! The makers of that movie will have to bear the guilt for renewed persecution of Catholics worldwide! (wink, wink)
Gee, thanks, Eric. I’ve fixed it, so now you look out of place.
Michael: Luther will be playing at my usual theater, thanks for the heads up!
PWinn: Interesting type-o on your 5:46 pm entry today. I agree—I’ve been hoping Michael would get his shit in focus for years (JN).
Promos of “Luther: The Movie” are playing, and it looks great. This review seems to confirm that we have a good story, well told here. Go to the web site and see if it is near you. Opens this weekend!
Christopher Catherwood is a Brit who writes some things in Reformed circles, and he has this little note on the review page of David (not Rush) Limbaugh’s new book on Christians being persectuted by liberals. It is the ideal response to this kind of whining. I appreciate what irritates Limbaugh and company, but I really wonder what these people think about Christianity elsewhere. Catherwood makes the point perfectly:
I am as theologically conservative Evangelical as you can get, but I am always puzzled by books like this. In the USA you have separation of church and state and no religion in public schools. At the same time you have churches that are bursting at the seams (like Grace Community Church in CA, for example and Tenth Presbyterian, PA, for another). In the UK we have a state church and compulsary religion in schools and the British church – while my wife and I do attend one bursting at the seams – is in nowhere near as good a position. Likewise the biggest growing church in the world is in Communist China – yes, you did read that correctly! Despite DECADES of vicious persecution the Communisti government has not only failed to wipe out Christianity but there are now at least 40 times as many Christians in China than when the Communists came to power (which if my maths is OK is a 4000% increase!) Is God in charge or is He not? Globally, Christianity is growing like never before and in many cases in areas such as Africa long after the white missionaries have gone. God is in charge, folks! He is on the throne! Jesus is Lord! Most Western European countries would do anything to have the kind of conversion growth you have in the USA! John MacArthur, who should know, as his church is growing exponentially every day it seems, makes it clear again and again – it is conversion growth and biblical teaching that spread God’s Word and increase His church – if it were like this book suggests, Britain would be predominantly practising Christian and the USA a spiritual wilderness, yet in actual terms it is the other way around! Have some faith, fellow Christians and trust in God – He has never let His people down yet! Christopher Catherwood, author of CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS AND ISLAMIC RAGE (Zondervan, 2003)
Looks like General Clark has one thing in common with Mr. Gore- a talent for the whopper. The deal here seems to be just lie about whatever, even if it doesn’t matter. Just let it fly.
Yes ladies and gentlemen, despite the high and sophisticated level of reasoning exhibited in this discussion, the gods of conversation have spoken. Our disussion of Pacifism- or whatever in the heck we are talking about under that name- has now become, the feared….the dreaded….the legendary BHT DEAD HORSE.
Now pay your tabs and play darts.
Michael, like we’ve said, I don’t like separating individual from state ethics, and I don’t think the survival of any state is an ultimate concern. And I think Jesus was a hippie, and, um, there’s no scriptural support for my position, which is why no one has ever beleived it except for terrorist sympathizers who hate America and want to destroy our way of life. Does that sum things up sufficiently?
Let’s talk about something else: creationism. That’s a good article, Phillip. It highlights an odd paradox for me, which is that I first stopped being a YE person back when I still believed in the primacy of the scientific method. The evidence against it piled up, the evasions looked more and more shaky, and so I stopped believing. Years later, I’ve learned presuppositional apologetics and better theology about God’s sovereignty, and I see that this doesn’t hold up. Why am I still an OE guy, then?
To be honest, habit. I have other argument about ancient genres and the significance of mythology and whatnot to use for the OE position, now, but none of those things really require an OE position, they merely allow for it. This was brought up several months ago when my pastor taught on Jonah, and challenged those who would make the whale-swallowing a piece of fiction. I was kinda-sorta in that camp, but he said that if we can accept the resurrection as historical fact, why not this? I don’t know. Jonah isn’t as central to the Bible as Jesus is, but aren’t we on a very slippery slope here? There are those who read the resurrection as unhistorical, and I’ve been accused of capitulating to them.
I don’t have any answers here, but this is what the article made me think of.
Matthew: Yes, LSU will be tough. Georgia and LSU was a good old-fashioned cat and dog fight in the parking lot. If Arkansas keeps improving , then LSU and the Hogs will have it out – a good one.
Have you noticed how strong the MAC is this year? N. Illinois beats Maryland and Alabama. Marshall plays Tennessee a very good game and then beats K-State. Bowling Green plays Ohio State a very close game. Someday well look up and see Marshall in the top 10.
Charles: Well, if I just had to have only one news site, I would probably have Drudge, but if you mean actual news, I generally read Fox and Google, and sometimes CNN. I read, NRO every day. WSJ and Human Events are frequent stops as well. Presbyweb and CT Weblog are my sources for Christian news.
Charles, I get nervous about every game so I’m drinking pepto thinking about ‘Bama. Yes, NIU beat them but they’re going to be pissed coming into that game. I do think we will win, though. I also think our toughest game will be at Baton Rouge the day after Thanksgiving. I think it’s a good bet that that game will determine the SEC West. Oh, and LSU will not blitz our O-line the way they did against Georgia.
Coaches poll? What a bunch of idiots. Go to jimrome.com and read his main article on that poll. He gives the Hogs some props and I think he’s right.
Michael: What is your favorite internet news site?
Jim: I read an article numbers of years ago which stated that Lovecraft did not believe in the supernatural. Can you fill in more details for me?
Also, did you see the film “Dunwich Horror”? Your opinion?
Pacifism: Good grief Jesse. Why do you keep bringing this up? If you want to be a pacifist then be one. But do not keep presenting it as the biblical norm for any of the rest of us. There is no scriptural position for pacifism. None.
Football: OU is rolling. Michigan was supposed to roll. Ohio State is still winnning. Marshall has a very good team. The Thundering Herd is stampeding.
Miami won again.
Tom: Your comments on OU? Mike on OSU? Matthew on the Hogs?
On Creation: I find this argument interesting. The problem with YE creationism for most people seems to be one or another evidence that points to an old earth, pure and simple. Whether ‘tis astronomy, or carbon dating, or whatever, the available evidence conflicts with a literal six-day reading, and so alternate explanations are sought. Personally, I find astronomy the most compelling of these, though I’ve noted before that it does still amount to an argument of debatable logic, that is, that God wouldn’t deceive us by creating things that look much older than they actually are.
The article to which I linked above asks how well other miraculous events might stack up against the scientific principle. What would rigorous scientific analysis of Jesus’ loaves and fishes show? Or the wine that He made out of water? For me, the wine is an especially good example of this, since wine explicitly takes time. A much smaller scale of time than light from a distant star, to be sure, but the principle is similar. The point is that miraculous events necessarily disrupt the repeatability on which we rely to operate the scientific method.
Anyway, it’s an interesting question that reminds me that neither OE nor YE creation can be “proven” any more than Darwinian evolution can, so it’s all a matter of interpreting evidence.
Texts that are appropriate are listed below. Because it is a graveside, I would 1) Do an entiure Psalm. 2) Do a reading from the NT that features the resurrection/heaven.
Comments: The main thought of the text. Recognize the loss. Recognize the love and care of family. Speak of the Gospel, salvation by grace through faith, and its application to death. Speak of hope of eternal life.
Don’t eulogize, but mention the person as a person, by name, and in their different roles in life.
Pray. Be brief. Don’t use humor or big illustrations. If this is the only service, less than 15 mins max.
Be serious, but not morbid. Sound some clear note of hope for all those present.
John 11:25-26
John 14:1-6
1 Corinthians 15
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Job 19:25-26
Psalm 46
Revelation 14:13
1 Corinthians 13:12
James 4:14
Psalm 17:15
Psalm 116:15
Philippians 1:23
2 Timothy 1:10
Job 14:14
2 Corinthians 5:1
Revelation 21:1-5
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Philippians 3:20-21
1 Corinthians 15:49
2 Samuel 12:23
Luke 8:52
Psalm 23
Psalm 46
Psalm 90
Luke 23:39-43
1 Corinthians 13
Romans 8:18-39
Revelation 7:13-17
Psalm 116:15
1 Corinthians 15:50-58
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
Revelation 22:1-5
2 Timothy 4:6-8 with 1 Peter 1:13-21
Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
2 Corinthians 1:3-7
Isaiah 61:1-3
John 14:16-19
John 5:25-29
Philippians 3:20 with 1 John 3:1-2
Psalm 73:24-26
1 Corinthians 15:22-26
Psalm 5, 8, 20, 27, 42, 63, 71, 93, 94, 103, 121
Michael/Jesse/Scott/Jim/Whomever I missed: Thanks for the kind words about my new church home.
Believe it or not, Jesse, your satirical statement comprises two of the items listed under “Cons” on a (short) list my wife and I drew up. I am deeply concerned about the possibility of empty ritual, and disappointed to be leaving charismatic traditions completely. It was actually a positive point for us that the rector is very focused on the work of the Holy Spirit (not generally signs-related, of course) and on healing sp