Gentlefolk:

Did you know that we used to talk about communion on BHT, and nobody got killed?

Rule 8 was created specifically to address my occasional Satan sightings. In its original formulation, the rule contained (or maybe it was was explained in someone’s posts) that my posts all carry an implicit JN. If that isn’t commonly understood, then either rule 8 needs to be revised, or I’ll stop posting. My employer will be happier

In anger and sarcasm, I slammed the LCMS ungraciously. I also slammed the IFCA. Nobody from the IFCA has lambasted me in a blog, as far as I can tell from Google, despite the fact that the IFCA is so fractious that it can’t even manage to be a proper denomination. (At Northeastern, our running joke was that the acronym stood for “I Fight Christians Anywhere.”) Curiously, my content filter settings won’t let me actually read the blog where I was slammed, so I’ll take everyone’s word on it (and please, don’t repost the stuff here. I care so little about this anymore it’s not funny. I know enough people damaged by crack to be unconcerned about what crack dealers say about what I think of them.)

I have no problem with a church’s decision to close communion, and (unlike Jack) I would not take communion in a church which had a different understanding from me, if by doing so I was implying agreement with their position. I view this as an application of Romans 14.

Josh, though, told me that I wasn’t saved because I couldn’t agree with him on the meaning of “is” in 1 Corinthians 11:24. I was patient, asked for an explanation of the hermeneutic involved, and tried to be maintain good humor; eventually, however, his attitude, along with a real-life encounter with a person who has been seriously damaged by people with similar views pushed me over the edge. I responded by speculating that Satan was a member of certain denominations; this was intended as a caricature. If I offended anyone else with this caricature, I apologize.

But know this: Michael has, in my view, demonstrated considerable grace and patience with Josh, way beyond what is required of him by politeness. Going forward, I will act is if Josh were booted; I will ignore his posts and not respond directly to him until such a time as he is actually booted, or he sends me a copy of the Westminster Confession signed in his own blood. Oh, and [JN], just in case you weren’t listening.

On Closed Communion: Or “Eucharistic Discipline” if you prefer. This is a serious question, mainly for the Lutherans but also for anybody that feel like answering. Let’s grant that people not in fellowship with your group cannot participate in your communion. Now let’s turn it around. For whatever reason (you’re visiting family) you find yourself in a non-Lutheran (or non-whatever) communion service. Do you partake, or not?

If not, why not?

I read somewhere recently that at least some Lutherans would refuse to participate because they were “just plain symbols,” and so then I ask, “Why?” What is it that makes those “just plain symbols” instead of the very body and blood of Christ? What makes Christ’s presence real in one communion service and not another? Is it the faith of the recipient? If so, it seem you could partake of any communion service without problem. Is it the faith of the person administering the elements? Luther, at least, seemed to strongly indicate otherwise. Is it the method by which it is administered? Certain prayers or certain actions, perhaps? That’s pulling a bit much out of Scripture, I think. How is it that the “real presence” of Christ is subject to such conditions?

I’m trying to figure out why someone would deliberately skip communion in an environment where it is open to all believers. Unless, of course, the person doesn’t believe that the group with which he is sitting are Christians at all. But even then…

Jealous.

It’s like a movie – “I’m LCMS, and I’m not shamed to say it.” “Me, too! I’m LCMS!” “Hey, I’m LCMS, and you don’t see me trying to burn people at the stake.” “Oh my gosh! I’m LCMS too! Would you look at that?”

Me? Yes, I have chosen the LCMS as a via media between my Catholic upbringing and my fundy tendencies. Southern Baptist gradeschool while going to Mass really messed me up. I was saved several times on Wednesdays. I am certainly not a poster child for straight-up LCMS however, as my church does a lot of stuff that would certainly be condemned by some as too Protestant. Our third, most seeker-friendly, service even eschews kneeling at the alter for walking down the aisle for communion. I don’t go to this service, too happy clappy in the worship department. I am attracted to the LCMS, as opposed to the ELCA because of their committment to scripture. I was pretty unnerved however at the recent controversy about the Lutheran pastor joining in with the hethen at Yankee stadium for a not-prayer service after 9-11. Seems some shady business in there. I say look at the LCMS views summary page and decide whether we (corporately) comdemn everyone else to hell. I used to call myself a Garden variety christian. I guess now I have to call myself a confessing evangelical.

Gentlemen:

I am a Lutheran. Any of you are most welcome to visit me in my home, and you may even attend worship with me.

However, upon the administering of the eucharist, it is vitally important that you do not join me in taking it.

You see, it is not enough that you believe the words “blood shed for the forgiveness of your sins.” IT IS NOT ENOUGH.

Only one tradition is “the faith once delivered to the saints”. Christ makes demands on his disciples—one of those demands is that you DISCERN THE BODY. Lutheranism is THE BODY which has threaded every doctrinal needle, kept every fundamental article of faith, and strikes a doctrinal balance between EVERY MAJOR ERRONEOUS BRANCH OF SO CALLED “CHRISTIANITY”.

Remember, gentlemen: if you want to be fed by Christ, you need to do more than believe. You need to study, read, repent of your heteropraxy and discern the true body.

After being pissed of, you can thank me later for administering eucharistic discipline which will bring you to true saving grace. I’ll take a tithe of those future fruits of yours, too.

(Gentlewomen, shut up. Just follow those repenting husbands of yours. That’s right.)

Just a friendly reminder:

If you haven’t sent me a picture, or a link to a picture, please do so now. Last call is at 12:00PM Noon!

Thanks!

Oh – and for a preview…

Bill MacKinnon
Denise Spencer
Tim Venestra

Told you they were cute and stuff…

Maybe I’m just in a good mood these days (grad school application and entrance exams out of the way) but I’m having fun here. I’d rather trade jabs with people and defend myself against charges of heresy all day long than talk about cats, coors and country music.

Gentleman:
I was confirmed into the LCMS in the eighth grade. I went through three years of educational training to get there. I never experienced any of the hard core “if you’re not LCMS your not saved stuff. I was told that Grace, faith, and scripture alone were the provision for my salvation.

Josh -
It would seem that the ferocity with which you defend the tenants of the LCMS has become more important than actually implementing your faith and living as someone who might be an attractive example of that which has made a difference in your life. Knowing what you believe is one thing, smashing people in the mouth with it is quite another. After reading MS’s past couple of posts (and it has been a long time since I have seen this kind of genuine ire from him) I am convinced that your approach is a bit bullish. Remember, I share your belief – mostly. And while I love the LCMS, I do not hold Luther as one whose doctrine was inspired on the same level as are…lets say…the gospels or the works of Paul.

Don’t apologize for what you believe; however, those Christians that don’t hold to that exact frame of reference are not necessarily heretics either. Christ is our common ground. he deals with us individually. I am as sure of the validity of the salvation of the saved Baptist as I am my own (even though they do have some stuff all screwed up). I’m sorry, I just don’t see that many of the mechanics of denominational function will have much validity at the foot of our Lord.

If I am wrong, well, thank God for Grace.
Sin Boldly – but believe even more boldly still.

Phillip: I think we have two others, don’t we?

Michael: Come on, I think you’re overreacting. Please don’t judge the entire LCMS by one bipolar child with a weblog! We even have at least one other Lutheran here at the BHT, right ? I know he’s hiding and waiting for the anti-Lutheran sentiment to die down, so I won’t out him.

I find it typical of people in a heavily authoritative church to adopt the mindset that dissension is wrong, when they even realize that there could possibly be dissension. I mention that to say this: Because there was no major schism at the time of those early councils does not mean that “the Church” (in the Biblical sense, that is, all believers) were united in belief. It simply meant that the people who controlled the sources of news and history agreed for whatever reason. It is easy to get lost in certain records and forget that God once surprised us all with the news that he had hundreds more faithful people waiting for His call at a time when we all thought there was just one.

Anyway, that’s the generic comment. More specifically, Jenny, I don’t mind “Catholic” referring to the RCC, because I use the lower-case “catholic” when I want to refer to the entire body of Christ (er, aggregate, not ingested). My exception is merely to the singular “the Church” in a context which I still think referred to the RCC today, though I’ll allow for the possibility otherwise. :-)

I don’t use “Romanist” as an insult at all, I simply try to distinguish at all times between the RCC and the church-at-large and various other groups. I assume you would prefer “Romanist” to “Papist,” no?

Close your eyes and bow your heads. If you believe your church is the true church from antiquity, the guardians of the truth, the keeper of the true faith, raise your hand:

I see that hand. (Landmark Baptist)

Thank you, I see that hand (Lutheran)

Sir, you don’t have to stand up, just raise your hand. Thank you. (Roman Catholic)

Any others? This may be your last chance. Yes, yes, I see that hand. Bless you. (Orthodox)

Any more? No no, maam, just one hand. I appreciate your enthusiasm. (Pentecostal)

Any others? Some of you are struggling. Don’t resist! (Presbyterian visibly shaking, sweating)

Bill: Presbyterians will baptize only children in the covenant, that is, children of believing parents. In your scenario there, nobody would be baptized without professing faith. At least, not in the Presbyterian church ;-)

Presby wouldn’t baptize any infants, but the session would talk to the older children and determine if they should be baptized as believers. No covenant baptism without a believing parent.

Baptists baptize people because they believe.

Lutherans baptize people because they do not believe.

Presbyterians baptize people because their parents believe.

Question 1: Which one has more scriptural precedent?

Question 2: A family with 20 children aged 1-18 ( few sets of twins in there) come to a church and ask to be baptized. When asked about their faith, neither the parents nor children seem to have any.

Does the church baptize them? All? None? Some?

Baptists: No
Presbyterians: (I’m guessing) probably not all of them, perhaps not any. Someone help me.
Lutherans: ??? I honestly don’t know. I’m hoping the Lutherans among us can answer.

In what will hitherto be referred to as “Withering Blast II,” Josh quotes our own JimN as seriously thinking the LCMS harbors Satan. I was just grateful he wasn’t saying anything about Chuck Swindoll going to hell. A full list of groups and individuals Jim has called “Satan” may be obtained by sending six dollars in postage to:

Internet Monk Research Department
Internet Monk Compond
2334 Barnacle Rd.
St. Sadies, Maryland 24211
Attn: Jim’s Big Book of Lists

Actually, I do appreciate the information Josh is posting, and it confirms my lifelong impression of what the LCMS is up to, and particularly how Josh views the evangelicals- that’s almost all of us- here as the BHT. We are heretics and cannot be saved as long as we believe heresy. If heresy- damning heresy that must be excommunicated- includes credobaptism, some version of eternal security, a reformed interpretation of the second commandment, limited atonement and dispensationalism, then I have been a damned heretic all my life and never a Christian in the eyes of the LCMS. Clarity is appreciated.

I have an Uncle who is dying. He’s my Uncle W.O. Spencer, the pastor of the fundamentalist, Dispensational, Landmarker SBC church where I grew up. Everything I ever knew about the Gospel for the first 15 years of my life I learned from him. In his last days, I’ve thought about him a lot. He gave me a lot of the errant baggage of Christianity, but he also passed along the treasure of justification by faith alone. Not justification by correct theology on icons, but sola fide. Right there in the midst of a lot of errors about decisionism and the rapture was the treasure. According to LCMS doctrine, my uncle is a heretic to be excommuicated, and I’ve been a heretic my entire ministry for not preaching infant baptism or embracing icons. I should- according to scripture- be treated as an unbeliever.

In other words, the Christ of the LCMS stands in front of the woman caught in adultery and says:

“Who condemns you?”

“No one, Lord.”

“Then neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more…....................Wait”

“Yes?”

“Do you happen to believe in credobaptism?”

“Well…..uh….yes. I do.”

“And do you think the chruch and Israel are always separate in scripture, especially in Daniel and Revelation?”

“Uh….yes.”

“Oh. Well, listen. I do condemn you. You’re a heretic. Sorry for the momentary confusion there.”

Jim,

Here’s some better background of the Syrian Catholic Church and its root in the Syrian Orthodox Church, interesting.

Seems historically, in the middle of the 17th Century, the Syrian Catholics broke from mother church (Syrian Orthodox) to be in union with Rome, hence their being part of the Eastern Rite.

Hope this assists better than my last post :).

Best,
Jenny

Note to the evangelicals- many of them Southern Baptists- standing in the malls and the parking lots to witness to people coming out of “The Passion.” Stop it. Please Stop it.

As the author of the award winning essay, “Why Do They Hate Us?” I have received letters from over 150 non-Christians telling me why they hate us. At the top of the list is what you are doing. Yes, you there standing at the RV with kleenex in one hand and a tract in the other. Yes—- I mean you.

See, this need on your part to get people to DO things- say prayers, walk aisles, cry while signing cards- all are far more offensive than anything more ritualistic Christians do. Because no matter how odd a Christian ritual might sound, if you don’t try to persuade strangers to do those things, they will probably not have any animosity towards you. On the other hand, if you accost people who paid good money to see a movie, and assume they are now ready to take up some of YOUR rituals, they will probably be annoyed. And rightly so.

Art speaks without your help. If God is going to use the Passion, he will do so without desperate measures on your part. Want to make a free book available at a book table? Maybe use your friendly smile to show you are human? But don’t use some canned three step process to steer a conversation towards your transactional theology and, even worse, your transactional anxieties. You make people feel like you haven’t sold enough Girl Scout cookies, and that look in your eyes is kind of frightening.

Let people see it and feel what they feel. If you can create a forum for questions at the local coffee shop, more power to you. If you can share your faith without the vacuum cleaner salesman methods, go or it. But it may be that people will see this and take steps on their own to find out more about Jesus or renew the faith they’ve neglected. Don’t be out there in the parking lot looking for women crying. Please.

Why, why should I die? Oh, why should I die?
Can you show me now That I would not be killed in vain?
Show me just a little Of your omnipresent brain
Show me there’s a reason For your wanting me to die
You’re far too keen on where and how But not so hot on why
Alright I’ll die! Just watch me die!
See how, see how I die! Oh, just watch me die!

Then I was inspired Now I’m sad and tired
After all I’ve tried for three years Seems like ninety
Why then am I scared To finish what I started
What you started I didn’t start it
God thy will is hard But you hold every card
I will drink your cup of poison Nail me to your cross and break me
Bleed me, beat me Kill me, take me now
Before I change my mind

Guess what? It’s some not half bad theology from Jesus Christ Superstar. In contrast to about 98% of evangelicals that I’ve known, this song actually makes it clear that the whole deal is God the Father’s project, and it’s His intention to bring about the death of Jesus. Christ died for God. The Father was pleased to bruise and crush him as a sin offering. He was put forward as a propitiation. I doubt if you would find all that many evangelical preachers who even understand the concept.

Hi There Jim,

I myself have not been yet officially received into the Catholic Church, but that is coming VERY soon :O). I am far from an expert on the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church which are in union with Rome. From what I know, the Syrian Catholic Church would fall under this category.

Upon becoming Catholic at my confirmation, I get to choose the rite in which I will become part of. If I am not mistaken, one is allowed to change rites ONCE with the approval of the bishop, say if I would desire to join a parish of the Byzantine rite. And yes, differing rites have differing distinctions, such as the form of liturgy and canon law, but maintain all seven sacraments (as do the Orthodox Churches also) and union with the bishop of Rome of course (which is of course, the labor of love being worked towards with the RCC/Orthodox discussions).

The discipline of priestly celibacy in the Latin rite is just that, a discipline. Just this last year, a number of priests from here in Wisconsin approached our really incredibly cool Archbishop Timothy Dolan for permission to send a letter petitioning the Vatican to reconsider lifting the discipline. He (Dolan) disagrees with discontinuing the normative requirement of priestly celibacy yet said to go ahead and try. It most likely will not occur under the oversight of Pope JPII.

With regard to the Catholic churches of the Eastern Rite, this is how I get the jist of how celibacy works. If you are married PRIOR to entering the priesthood, fine and dandy. If you become a priest unmarried, you are then to remain celebate. From what I know, it mirrors the Orthodox, bishops I do not believe are allowed to be married.

FYI, I just saw on 60 Minutes last year a segment on married Roman Catholic priests, say men whom had converted from the Episcopal or Lutheran Churches, the BUT being you must have been a priest/minister first. I’m not sure why pastors from different denoms can’t be, say such as former Presby Scott Hahn. (???) From the figures they sited there are about 100 of these men, exceptions to rules of discipline ;).

Right now on The Comedy Channel, a new show….

Straight Plan For the Gay Man

WHOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOO

Too Funny!

Jenny: Thanks for the references to the councils. I have a stack of books on other subjects I must read as well. At some point I will pull my church history books off the shelves and take off. I have some reading and thinking to do.

How could a Holy God unite with fallen humanity and still remain sinless? This question is probably at the heart of my original questions concerning the virginal conception. I believe this is the question at the heart of the immaculate conception as well. Charitably, I simply cannot go that far and embrace the IC.

This issue will probably remain a mystery to me the rest of my life.

Otoh, I do think there is a special place of honor for not only Mary, but Joseph as well. They were faithful to their roles as the earthly parents of Jesus. They were obscure people living in an obscure land. Today they are well-known as heroes in the Christian faith.

:) Finally, I do not throw mugs at the girls. Bill maybe, but you never. :-).

Denise: On our depravity, I am with you on this one all the way. It overwhelms me as well. Without Romans chapter 8 I would not be able to deal with it. It seems the older I get in the faith, the more I recognize my own sin for exactly what it is.

Due to my struggle with sin I have told Melody many times that I am “A Pagan Who Believes in Jesus”.

“The Passion”. I plan on seeing it. However, it may be awhile. All the theaters in Abilene, TX are virtually sold out the next several days. Melody and I will be having a date – rare these days – tomorrow. We may try and see if we can get a couple of tickets. I purchased the book with photo stills taken on the movie sets. My little daughter saw the cover and wanted to know who that man was. Well, here we go…....it is not the first time she has asked about who that man on the cross was. She is hearing the gospels from her parents first.

Jenny, I probably never officially extended a welcome, so welcome! I’ve enjoyed your posts on the forums. I’m now about to betray my ignorance of the Catholic Church and ask a question that I manage to ask every theologically-aware Catholic that I meet:

My wife grew up in Syria. Her family were (nominally) Orthodox, although they converted to Protestant faith under the influence of what is supposedly the only Evangelical church in Syria (it’s affiliated with the Christian and Missionary Alliance. When my wife’s family have attempted to explain their prior church to me, I’m told that the name translates from Arabic literally as “Roman Orthodox,” and that the group had priests (and possibly bishops) that could marry, but they recognized the authority of the Pope. I’ve tried for years to identify this group, and your comment about not all Catholics following “Roman” rites brought it to mind again. Any ideas who this group might be, just out of curiousity?

Phillip: You shouldn’t be punished for my sins. Long ago on the forum, I responded to Jenny- in a moment of weakness- by using a term that I find quite endearing: FUNDY! (JN) She was saying she saw a series of justification in the Abraham narrative, and I- suddenly possessed by a Lutheran spirit- was disagreeing.

I think you are thinking like a Fundamentalist to say that Romans 4 requires a series of justifications. Abraham believed God- in the narrative- for the first time in Gen 12. God speaks about Abraham’s justification for the first time in Romans 15. If we believe faith is BOTH an apprehension of the promises of God AND a process that increasingly lays hold of those promises, we are following the Biblical pattern.

Josh,

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not incorporate the idea that Mary’s conception was without sexual intercourse of the parents.
Some zealous Catholics might fancy that notion, but it is incorrect and is not normative Catholic doctrine.

Phillip,

Now I haven’t gone and insulted your vernacular now have I?

How about I use “RCC”, even though “Catholic Church” suits me just fine as the Roman rite is not the only one. As to my reference, we all know there was no schism in the fifth century at the times of the councils I have spoken of, and she was the Church. But I can handle being “EC” ;O)

Your “Romanist” Sister in Christ,
Jenny
You wanna talk bible? Sure but Michael may say that I am sounding like a fundamentalist again and that will do nothing to aid my recovery in FA.

I happen to partially agree with Josh. I think that there is an extent to which we think that our beliefs are right, whereas everyone else’s are wrong. That’s what makes a belief a belief. Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. I think they’re wrong. And I think that there is a place for vigorous, yet charitable theological debate (even polemics). We ought to treat each other as brothers in the Lord, unless there is an overwhemingly compelling reason not to.

I guess the question I would pose to Josh would be whether or not those who deny the Real Presence (and the other points of Lutheran doctrine) can be called Christians without qualification.

Another point concerns the underdetermination of Scriptural data for theology. Theology is an empirical science (in the sense that we observe the text, context and subtext), and like any empirical science the data can be interpreted in multiple ways. Some ways are more or less plausible than others. Now, it is true that there is only one correct way. Yet this does not imply that anyone has it figured out in its entirety. There are greater and lesser degrees of error. The damnable ones are heresy. The others aren’t.

Hot Damn! I get to run the bar!

This is my “2nd-from-the-top-of-the-list” Dream Job. Number 1 is conducting a symphony orchestra. Of course, that’ll happen the day after I finish my ski vacation in Hell.

Can Bart be the bouncer? I think it is a job for which he is – ahem – uniquely suited.

Michael The lack of quotage was deliberate, since I wasn’t sure whether you would like being held up as a somewhat negative example. I can certainly link the pieces if you like. :-)

Now Phillip, mention my name when you quote me! How else will I get those meaningless Google hits?

Good piece on your first foray into Capon. Don’t quit! I’ll try to ruminate a bit over at michaelspencer.us later tonight. Much later. Unless I take the laptop to the Lack of Talent Show. (BTW- shouldn’t grace drive us a little crazy? And shouldn’t we be less enthusiaistic about limiting grace? I’d recommend you pick up The Fingerprints of God, and find out how Capon reads the Bible. My outcomes on this are pretty solidly influenced by his, and I really think he has some marvelous things to offer, more so than anything else he’s promoted. It just seems to me that evangelicals and most Christians are stuck in a cul-de-sac on the Bible and they don’t know another way. Capon showed me that way, and it keeps enriching my life and preaching. )

What’s that, eh?

It’s a boot.

It’s aboot what?

Not “aboot,” you lousy Canuck, a boot. Like you wear on your feet.

I’m not wearing any boots, eh.

This boot isn’t for wearing anyway.

What’s it for, eh?

It’s for Josh, who can’t be bothered to read new rules written specifically with him in mind.

Huh?

Trust me on this one.

[Ed: I won’t pretend this is humor, since that’s pointless. It’s clearly an insult. And a suggestion, to boot!]

First, I denied the Canon. or bits of it. Sometimes.

Then, I said that talking about theology was useless. Sometimes.

Then I admitted that I wasn’t really saved, on the basis of refusing the sacrament.

What’s next? Well, I’m now out as a conspiracy theorist, Nazi sympathizer and Holocaust denier. At least that’s where it will end up on Google, with my luck.

Yep, it was a list of insults. I’m glad you figured it out. Nobody else seemed to get it. Those dummies thought it was humor. HA!

Michael: I’m far less disturbed by the reference to the clearly-ridiculous Marianism than by the reference to “the Church,” with capital letters. Once we start talking about “her” doctrines (you know, the Church’s doctrines) instead of quoting Scripture, you’re in a world of hurt. Next we’ll invite someone in from the OCA to tell us in great detail how the Orthodox church is authoritative over Scripture, right?

But since we’re not referring to Scripture in any way around here, I’ll just point out that using the IC to answer the question of Jesus-DNA (file under “conception, not ingestion”) reminds me of using natural selection to support a theory of the origin of the universe. “Well, see, there was this big bang.” What banged? “Well, stuff.” Where did the stuff come from? “It was immaculately conceived.” But…

Um, and I’ll take a heaping helping of (JN), thanks.

Funny how the longest insult was directed at me in Michael’s list of who would be doing what after Passion.

Assuming I even see it.

Anyway, Immaculate Conception is completely unnecessary for Christ to have been born without sin. If, in fact, Mary’s being conceived without sex was enough to render her flesh sinless, the same should also be true of Christ, hence negating the need for any such thing.

However, I’m probably going to be the last person to try to figure out some logical reason why Christ was born without sin. It seems to me that, biblically speaking, it has to do with him being born of woman (and even then, where’d the other half of his DNA come from?), but not man. RC’s will usually argue that logic demands the IC, but I don’t really believe in logic (and mathematics is nothing less than the study of boolean logic), and I especially don’t believe in establishing articles of faith based on logic. I’m entirely agnostic on the matter.

One of my co-workers told me today that people who don’t want to see The Passion are being used by Satan. I thought….”hmmmmmmm Jim and Richard…..yeah….Satan….hmmm.”

Our own Alex has seen it and has some comments, including the surprising announcement that it’s not postmodern.

I would also recommend Michael Dubruiel’s sane review.

Anyone care to take the obvious swing at the softball thrown by Jenny? Which can be summarized I think as: “You Protestants that believe Jesus’ human nature was formed from the HS’s work in Mary ought to go ahead and embrace the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.” See what happens when you start debating the divine DNA?

Now Bill, if you can’t cheerfully have your beliefs characterized as “crap” don’t read the “Withering Blast.” It’s very Lutheran to use scatlogical terms. And I think we have to give points for the non-drive-by nature of that proclamation. I’m ashamed that I agree with so much of it. But since there are no non-stupid-crap churches within two hours of my house, I’m just screwed and stuck with the stupid crap. I found myself thinking how often I have debated baptism in the 32 years I’ve been a Christian, and I never heard that credobaptism was stupid crap. But this is ‘04, and we are making progress. I’m wondering if IM Productions should buy the whole post and produce it as a miniseries. The “orgy of heresy” scene looks promising.

Oh yeah. (JN)

I was interested to note that speaking in tongues and baptizing believers are both heresy. (well, the words used were “stupid crap”) Pentecost must have been one huge crapfest.

I wonder which is worse: inventing new heresies or doggedly clinging to old ones? (JN)

If you can get past the warnings for the faint of heart, be sure and read what I’ll call the Withering Blast. Reading in the comments that Lutherans don’t call themselves Protestants, I was once more taken back to my Landmarkist Baptist upbringing, where it was hammered into our heads that we were not Protestants. We were, of course, the true Christians. Even compared to the Indy Baptists, who didn’t use our Sunday School literature.

Charles,

I just wrote a response on your comments page, but thought I would throw them up here too. The councils you would want to look at are the Council of Ephesus (431 AD) and the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD).

As I shared in my comment, the Church has dealt definitively with this in her Christiology.

Why not…
I am going to be getting myself into a trouble with this slightly provocative comment, but in reflecting upon the developement of the idea of the hypostatic union perhaps we might not just get so upset with two little words in the Marian teaching of the Catholic Church ;).

Not to be too cute, one begins with an I, the other with a C.

... New barmaid puts that pretty little cocktail on the counter with a cherry on top and dunks quickly behind the bar, hoping not to get hit by the chair soon to fly across the room.

Michael: My family’s church in San Diego paid extra to book an entire theater for opening night, plus they’ve bought some blocks of tickets for other nights. If you paid $9 or $10 to go opening night, you gut the nice intro from the pastor, no commercials or trailers, and a free copy of Piper’s book on the way out the door. Considering the book is $8 from Amazon, not a bad value at all.

Of course, this church is already known to purchase quality books at the Evangelical Bible Book Store (already a super-cheap and great bookstore, the bricks-and-mortar equivalent of Discerning Reader) and then sell them at below cost. Crazy, man, crazy.

And since you’ve clearly read on my own site that I’m planning to read Capon, there’s no need for an apologia yet. Maybe I’ll decide he’s not as crazy as he describes himself to be in his introduction!

Charles (and all!) Please don’t think that all I get are glimpses of my own depravity. Oh, no. I’m generally pretty well overcome by the immensity of it. That’s why I suggested glimpses—-I’m not able to even begin to relate all the “big” stuff….and I wouldn’t confess it to you guys if I could! Sometimes the “small” things show how utterly ridiculous my real nature is, and I just have to laugh (or cry.) But they also remind me that my sin extends to every fiber of my being.

BTW, that family never did come to our church. Guess it was my fault.

Would it be wrong of me to suggest that the media is continuing to find extreme Jewish opponents of the film and continuing to give them the opportunity to come on TV and vent, all for ratings? And would it be wrong of me to say that if anything results in some drunken bubba egging the local Temple it might be listening to the umpteenth version of this media-led baiting?

OK talk jocks- America will now go to the movie and make up their own mind. The NYTimes and Focus of the Family have done our thinking for us. Now let us go into the theater and see for ourselves.

I’m thinking of buying a case of Piper’s book on the Passion of Jesus Christ. What could I do with them? (Other than pass them out at the BHT Theater rental. How is ticket distribution for that going?) I hear that the local theaters are sold out for two weeks.

I did some hard nosed, “Look at the ugly truth” counseling today, and it seems to have worked out. Thank you, Lord. I don’t deserve moments like that, but you give me so many of them. I didn’t deserve that wonderful illustration right in the middle of my sermon. But you did that, too. I didn’t deserve to have people ask me about Ash Wednesday today, and I didn’t deserve to tell people all day that YOU killed your SON for our sake, but I got to do that FOUR TIMES, plus chapel!

I need to write an apologia for my interest in Robert Farrar Capon. And I have an IM piece on how to read the Bible that is jumping out of my head. (Fresh heresy!! Fresh heresy!!) I have a 90 minute counseling session tonight and I must babysit the “Lack of Talent Show” final rehearsal. (Why is there a reverse correlation between self confidence and actual talent? Why does every Christian girl with an accompaniment CD think she is a vocalist? Argh) Then it’s the Talent Show on Friday, a special worship service (and message) Saturday, and two sermon preps, then two sermons Sunday and Admissions Sunday afternoon. The good news is Noel is coming home for a weekend. (Did you guys know the entire Spencer family is going to the monastery for an overnight March 10? We may all convert to the RCC at once.)

Denise: I find lately that whenever I kill a drifter, I wet the bed for three or four nights. That has to be some kind of indication.

Seriously, though, I think mine was when I lived in your neck o’ the woods. And I don’t know that it was a very small glimpse. It’s this: I don’t deal well with isolated and impoverished people. Well, that’s not entirely true—I deal well with them, especially when it’s part of my job. But I get either a) angry, b) depressed, c) disgusted, d) bitter, or e) all of the above when I see the kind of stuff you see when you go shopping in Manchester. And I don’t think that’s the kind of thinking or attitude God would want me to have in light of those people’s lives.

So there ya go. I am evil, which is a surprise to no one.

PETA kills me. Raising cows for beef indeed. Sheesh. Here and here you’ll find the kind of stuff PETA’s interested in—really important stuff!

I saw a Rabbi on FoxNews this am talking about the “anti-semitism” of Passion. Can you say paranoid? This guy was seeing hatred of Jews under every rock! I plan to see the movie, but as a movie. Can’t we just allow it to be a frigging movie?
And violence? Please. Where were all these people when Private Ryan came out. Or Goodfellas. Or Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Or Requiem for a Dream. (BTW, I like all of those except Texas Chainsaw, which I’ve never seen). Aren’t these people the same ones constantly yelling at the “religious right” for complaining about media content, citing first amendment etc etc?

In case you need a better reason to see “The Passion”, here’s this little ditty from the IMDB:

Mel Gibson has come under attack again – this time from animal rights activists who are furious he’s raising animals for meat at his beef cattle ranch in Columbus, Montana. The Passion Of The Christ director – whose movie has sparked a flurry of controversy among religious groups who fear it will create anti-Semitism – has angered the People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals (PETA), who claim it’s immoral for Christians to raise and kill “God’s creatures” for food. Peta, who on Tuesday staged a day-long demonstration outside his Beartooth Ranch, picketed a screening of the movie at the UA Union Square Theatre in New York last night. The protest featured a 10-foot “Jesus On Stilts”, and a stash of leaflets about “Christianity and Vegetarianism”. The rep says, “We’re saying ‘Thou shalt not kill’ to Mel Gibson. We’re just saying people who oppose violence and injustice should extend that compassion to all God’s creatures, and adopting a vegetarian diet is the best way to do that.”

Screw the ESV. Screw the KJV. Screw the NRSV. You haven’t truly read the Bible until you’ve read it in the original Klingon.

Denise: About depravity. I am afraid I am not getting glimpses anymore. Without resorting to a woe is me type of Christianity – I don’t practice that – I can honestly say that insteading of getting glimpses of my depravity, I now see more of my sinfulness than ever before. There have been times in the last few years when it has felt like a flood of self-revelation. I am glad the Lord has been merciful to me in this area.

Also, Denise, thanks for your feedback on the virginal conception. I think your view may be the correct one in this area. I have some reading and thinking to do.

Michael: Sex cannot cause heart attacks can it? Even if it did I would not stop. :)

PWinn’s Lenten self-denial sort of goes along with my last-year’s Lenten commitment to give up “not drinking.” Unfortunately, I’m completely off alcoholic beverages for the time being (for medical reasons,) and thus this year I’m giving up not not drinking.

I’m working on an article for XMLHead that comes out of the David Friedman “review” of Passion that trots out all the “anti-semitic” elements of the film (Friedman’s view, not mine). Unfortunately, I can’t remember where the link was. Anyone have an idea?

Sorry, Denise, but that’s too uncomfortably close to real religion for me. And, uh, I was a sinner, but now I’m perfect. :-)

On Lent: I was going to suggest that we all share what we’re giving up for Lent. But then we read Matthew 6:16-18 at our Ash Wednesday service last night, and, uh, er, I changed my mind. :)

So…I’m proposing a confession session entitled, “Glimpses of Depravity.” Doesn’t that sound like fun? It goes like this. You tell of a time when you caught a fleeting glimpse of your own depravity (your own—-not someone else’s!) in one of those “little” ways. One of those seemingly innocent things Uncle Screwtape might suggest to Wormwood for his “patient.” I’ll go first.

There’s a family at our school who was fairly recently dissatisfied with their church. They had formerly gone to our church. The wife is extremely musically talented, both at the piano and vocally. Everyone just loves to hear her play and sing. When we learned that they might be looking for a new church home, Michael remarked that perhaps they would be interested in returning to our church. My very first (unspoken!) thought, honest to goodness, was, “NO! Then I’ll never get to play the piano again!”

Yep. It’s all about ME. I think that’s been the name of the game since Eve plucked that pear off the tree.

Since a woman has died from a heart attack during a viewing of “The Passion,” the research staff here at the IM compound have spent the night at their computers and now have a list of things that have been related to sudden expiration by heart attack. Since the media will be urging us to stay away from The Passion because of heart attack risk, these activities are also under a “Code Red” alert, and should be given up by all those concerned about their health.

Sex. Nuff said.
Doing your taxes.
Going to the Doctor.
Going to the Hospital.
Going to the Nursing Home.
Sitting home watching television.
Sleeping.
Eating.
Winning the lottery.
Fixing that drain under the sink.
Any car repair.
Walking.
Running.
Swimming.
Sex. Did I already say that? Sorry.
Drinking.
Walking the dog.
Arguing with Lutherans.

Thanks for the replies on my earlier question about the virginal conception. I had this conversation with my pastor last summer.

I had always believed that Jesus was a special creation in Mary’s womb without her genetic material being involved. My reasoning was that she was fallen like the rest of us and that Jesus, in order to be our redeemer – and remain perfect -could not have a union with fallen human flesh. I had always believed, though, that Jesus was fully human and fully divine simultaneously. And I still believe that.

I had never discussed with this anyone. I found out during our conversations with my pastor that my wife had come to the same position as mine over the years. However, I am rethinking my earlier position on His conception. My pastor believes Mary’s genetic material was involved and that is the whole “scandal” of the incarnation; i.e., that Jesus – the God-man – would take on human flesh like ours and yet still remain the sinless Son of God. He asked some other theologians about this. Their response was that this was an issue in the early church. I need to look this up, but I believe the Council at Nicaea dealt with this as well.

My pastor said that docetism was the name attached to this particular vein of thought; H.O.J. Brown’s book “Heresies” agrees with that. Docetism emphasizes the deity of Jesus over his humanity. At least that is how my limited understanding sees it at this point.

I never knew I was a heretic. Now we have two on this board. :) SW.

The issue with the extreme violence in “The Passion of the Christ” is that different people have diffferent “thresholds” when it comes to violence. When is too much really too much? At what point does it run into the law of “diminishing returns” when Jesus is so beat up that he becomes something other than a human image? What is deeply moving to some may cause others to run out of the theater halfway through. What for some is focusing deeply on the sufferings of Christ for others is grotesque and horrible. But maybe the discomfort is a good thing.

Well, I could bring my cat too, and he could bring his two cats also!!

I gave up giving things up for Lent for Lent. Or something like that. For the record, I had meat sandwiches at church for dinner and skipped the imposition of ashes. Even after I verified that they were indeed the result of burning last year’s Palm Sunday palm fronds, as they’re supposed to be. I’m just a rebel.

Plus, the Dallas Morning News had a photographer there snapping photos and I didn’t want to be in them. She got releases from a row of kids and the lady who wears a headcovering.

I know I have posted a lot of Passion reviews, but I think this one deserves reading. The phrase “religious snuff film” is pretty tough coming from someone who was fairly positive going in.

The dogs are a great idea, especially if the cat people would bring their cats.

Amanda has requested to sing two songs. I say one in the theater. The rest in Jack’s bar with Judson. Tips go to the blog.

Thanks for the views on giving things up for lent.
Even if it was calvinistic..{:>).

Yay! I get to write the sequel!

Matthew, I still want to hear about your mess. I know! You tell about the mess you made of your Ash Wednesday service, and I’ll tell how I butchered the Doxology at our church Sunday. Then we’ll both feel better!

I humbly offer my two dogs to clean up the corn, and I am watching two other dogs for a missionary ,, (dang she’s been gone a long time, I think it’s ruse), they can help too.

Churches Buy All ‘Passion’ Tickets, ‘Pagans can Wait’

(2004-02-24)—Churches across America have bought up all of the theater tickets for the rest of this year’s showings of the new Mel Gibson film The Passion of the Christ, so that church-going Christians can enjoy the movie repeatedly.

According to one denominational official, “pagans can wait until it comes out on DVD.”

“We see this film as the greatest missionary tool in a generation,” said one unnamed denominational official. “It’s too good to be wasted on the ‘lost’, the pagan non-believers. We’re going to use the movie to prove to church members that Jesus is Lord and, more importantly, that He’s a blockbuster hit and just as cool as any other celebrity. Christians don’t have to feel like freaks anymore.”

“Once they see the movie,” said an unnamed pastor of a small Illinois congregation, “they’ll finally realize that what they’ve heard in church all these years is really true.”

Licensed merchandise for The Passion is flying off the shelves of Christian retailers. Among the most popular items, a button that reads: “I Believe in Jesus…Now Showing at a Theater Near You.” [From Scrappleface.]

Well, Passion claims it’s 1st …

Wonder where this will lead?

Well readers, I am excited about the BHT. Good things are in the air. I am upbeat and positive. So much so, that the Internet Monk staff has convinced me to dig into the cookie jar, pull out a wad of cash and go down to the multiplex cinema here in the mall in St. Sadies, Maryland. Why, do you ask?

The BHT is renting a theater for a showing of The Passion. That’s right. We are hosting a trendy outreach. But everyone has to help!

Now, in the spirit of evangelicalism’s all out involvement with this film, I’ve taken the liberty to assign a few jobs. I am, of course, open to your suggestions.

I will be blogging the whole thing live.
Jack will run an open bar.
Bill Mackinnon will give a Gospel presentaion and a long invitation at the end of the movie.
Tim will play the organ while Bill pleads.
Matthew will hand out his “40 Days” Study Guide to all those who make decisions.
Judson will play Irish music at Jack’s bar.
Jenny will hold a seminar in the lobby explaining all the Catholicism in the film.
Phillip will counsel those hesitating at the door.
Richard will have a Bible study with those refusing to go in.
Denise will write a sequel.
Noel will write a review.
Scott will hand out Chick tracts in the parking lot.
Amanda will sing the theme song.
Jim will pick up Mel Gibson at the airport and drive him to the theater.
Kurt will give away BHT t-shirts to lucky ticket holders.
Mike B will have older ladies sign forms agreeing not to sue us if they have a heart attack.
ericrigney will take care of everyone’s kids.
John won’t be able to come because Bono is on Larry King Live.
J.S. will be learning Aramaic.
Ken Boyd will add up all those decision cards into a nifty tally.
Mike Benoit will offer Passion-based counseling.
Russell and Alex will debate whether the film is postmodern.
Steven, Bruce and Charles are new. They can hug people at the doors.
Tom Hinkle can offer immediate baptisms.
Josh (who gave that guy a ticket?) will speak briefly after Bill, and will say “All I know is that my understanding of the Gospel is shaped by the Scriptures, the sacraments, iconography (incl Eastern, Roman, and Reformation) and Christian liturgical tradition, especially the medieval Western meditations on the Passion and the liturgical observance of Lent and Holy Week. From what I’ve heard in the movie, it sounds like Mel’s coming at things from a similar angle, which is why I liked the movie. From what I’ve heard so far from everyone else, it sounds like Michael is totally not of this mindset, that he considers such mindset to be entirely deficient, and really really really does not comprehend that I flatly disagree with his tack on things.”
He was immediately given a stiff drink
Bart will weep throughout the movie, and them beat the snot out of a kid in front of him who said “Shhhh!”
Lurker Scott will be in the parking lot with a sandwich board that says “Mel lied!”

Now, who will clean up the popcorn?

is the day Baptists say to people, “you’ve got a smudge on your forehead”, or worse yet, lick their thumb and try to rub it off.

Is when Baptists must eat twice as much meat as usual just to even things out.

On the conception of Christ: Charles, as the person on here with the least theological training, education, or know-how, I’ll dive in here first and then let everybody else blow me out of the water! I’ve always thought that as a human He was the product of Mary’s egg and the Holy Spirit. I guess I’ve always thought that because He was fully human and fully divine at the same time. And in Matthew 1:20 the angel tells Joseph that “what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.” So I assumed it was an actual conception, with the Holy Spirit as the Father. But then, what do I know? Bible scholars, time to chime in. It certainly is a fascinating question…

Ken Collins does a good job with this sort of thing from a Protestant point of view. Here’s something from his Lenten site on fasting. This is his general article on Lent.

This is a good RC explanation of Lenten customs. Lots of details. SOme knowledge of the RCC’s theology is helpful here.

If you don’t understand the entire Christian calendar, then the season of Lent won’t make much sense. It is a preparation for Holy Week and the cross. It’s scriptural precedent is Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days of preparation.

The Ash Wednesday liturgy in the BCP is helpful is seeing how we approach Lent. Read the prayers and scriptures and you will get the idea. (There are several pages to click through) Ash Wedesday is really about “You’re gonna die. Think about it.” and Hebrews 12:1-2. Weights and sins to be laid aside.

BTW- let me apologize for answering this question. As some sort of a Calvinist, I know I’m just asking for trouble.

this is easier than Charles question.., about which I have no clue.

Where did the idea of giving somethign up for lent come from?
I never heard of it other than in jokes or movies, no one I know does this stuff, what is it’s origin..?

thanks

I have a question for the board at large and the theologians in particular concerning the virginal conception.

When Mary conceived Jesus in her womb, was Jesus 1) a product of the Holy Spirit’s action and her genetic material in the womb or 2) was Jesus created as a separate being – a zygote that would grow to maturity – in her womb minus interaction with her genetic material.

For years, I had accepted concept #2. However, after several conversations with another Christian friend, I am re-thinking my position.

What say all of you?

bask in the glow of my intelligence and perspicacity, for I have become:

E-Deacon !!!

Armed with an AOL Instant Messenger account and a broadband internet connection, I dispense wisdom and counsel, and settle disputes from the comfort (and safety) of my own home or office.

I don’t know what deacons do in the weird religions most of you belong to, but in the SBC we generally divide the families up amongst the deacons so we can visit them periodically and, you know, talk spiritual and stuff with them. But this is a hassle. Making appointments, getting in the midst of arguments, strange dogs jumping on you and sniffing at your,.,well anyway. You get the picture. But lo and behold, the wonders of technology render all that a thing of the past. Most of my families are wired and online. It is the simplest of tasks to drop them a message now and again, or receive one from them, converse briefly, and then close the connection. Another Deacon Visit recorded!

Remember, you heard it here first.

From Amy Welbourn’s blog: James Bowman at the American Spectator confirms what I’ve said about early Christian art not emphasizing the gory details.

In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight, let those who worship evil’s might, beware my power…

The Chick Tract Translator – Special Super Happy-Family Fun-Joy “Passion” Edition
Gather my children, and you shall hear, of the midnight ride of Mel revered, and how he made a movie bold, but evangelicals made it cold. Missed the point, though some could say, that it all fell down on opening day, when right ‘fore their eyes, lookie, lookie, Mel Gibson sent us all The Death Cookie.

Wasn’t that nifty? It rhymed and stuff.

Our story begins in the midst of ol’ times, where Satan himself is offering advice, kinda like Oprah, but without the annoying bald guy. Homeboy’s wondering to himself… self, I sure would like to set myself up as the leader and ruler of all these idiot people, but I lack power, money, charm, good looks, and the general enthusiasm required for running for office… How, oh, how can I convince these suckers into following the great and all-powerful Guy With A Bad 5 O’Clock Shadow? Fortunately, Satan’s got an idea: forumulate a religion. Just convince them that you have the power to cast them into Hell, and they’ll follow you.

Satan’s even nice enough to show Mr. O’Clock Shadow how to do it, step by step. And now, for the first time in history, Translation Industries is proud to present The Satan Method to Success®:

Step 1. Appear very holy. According to Satan, speaking through Jack Chick’s tract, you can accomplish this by praying, being mysterious and different, saying things no one understands, and burning lots of candles.

Step 2. Build a holy work. Get a bunch of people to pretend that only you and them have these magical powers that can do cool things. This, according to Jack, will get you incredible power and riches. Not sure how “The Amazing Johnathan” got left out of this loop, but hey…

Step 3. Get the people to look to you for spiritual guidance. Be their pop. They’ll be your kids. Jack’s not saying it, but I think the best way to accomplish this is by giving them curfews and occasionally grounding them.

Step 4. The final and most critical step: give them a god they can pray to, touch, and see… like, say… a cookie.

A cookie… The Death Cookie… see the connection? Yep, Satan ain’t peddlin’ no wimpy Little Debbies® here: he’s peddlin’ a true Cookie of Death, straight out of a recipe from ancient Egypt. Make sure to use a lot of Latin-sounding words… oh, and make sure to tell them that if they don’t eat the cookie, they go to hell…

Yep. That’s Satan’s big plan o’ death for the human race. And you’ll never guess who he’s going to use to push it… no… really… guess… Aaaaahhhh… but master storyteller that he is, Jack ain’t spillin’ the beans just yet. He gives you more clues, like how “Mama Church” sets up a bunch of Jesuses… in a manger… on a crucif… I mean, cross… up in Heaven waiting to strike us dead if not for the intervention of his mama…

But the most dangerous Jesus… the absolute horror upon horrors… the one you should fear above all others… the Jesus that’s gonna come and kick your butt straight into hell if you don’t believe… is none other than…

The cookie. The Holy Oreo. The Sacred Nutter Butter.

Now it’s time for Jack to spill the beans… this story is really about… those darned Catholics. See… I told you that you’d never guess. You probably thought that a bunch of gay people were going to try to give you The Gay by forcing massive quantities of Snickerdoodles down your stomach. Nope… not The Gay this time. This time, the villian is that founder of Communism, Nazism, Islam, the Masons, the Illuminati, and the Rosicrucians AND the ones who were most directly responsible for the assassination of Abraham Lincoln: The Catholics.

Silly Catholics. Don’t they know that the Santified Chips Ahoy! can’t save them? Well, fortunately, Jack Chick’s here to remind us that salvation doesn’t come through a comination of flour, sugar, eggs, salt, maltodextrin, assorted nuts and chips… oh, and peanut butter…. Nope. Salvation don’t come through no dessert. It comes through the Independent Baptists.

Kinda puts Cookie Monster into a whole new perspective, doesn’t it?

“C” is for Catholic…