Now Phillip, mention my name when you quote me! How else will I get those meaningless Google hits?

Good piece on your first foray into Capon. Don’t quit! I’ll try to ruminate a bit over at michaelspencer.us later tonight. Much later. Unless I take the laptop to the Lack of Talent Show. (BTW- shouldn’t grace drive us a little crazy? And shouldn’t we be less enthusiaistic about limiting grace? I’d recommend you pick up The Fingerprints of God, and find out how Capon reads the Bible. My outcomes on this are pretty solidly influenced by his, and I really think he has some marvelous things to offer, more so than anything else he’s promoted. It just seems to me that evangelicals and most Christians are stuck in a cul-de-sac on the Bible and they don’t know another way. Capon showed me that way, and it keeps enriching my life and preaching. )

What’s that, eh?

It’s a boot.

It’s aboot what?

Not “aboot,” you lousy Canuck, a boot. Like you wear on your feet.

I’m not wearing any boots, eh.

This boot isn’t for wearing anyway.

What’s it for, eh?

It’s for Josh, who can’t be bothered to read new rules written specifically with him in mind.

Huh?

Trust me on this one.

[Ed: I won’t pretend this is humor, since that’s pointless. It’s clearly an insult. And a suggestion, to boot!]

First, I denied the Canon. or bits of it. Sometimes.

Then, I said that talking about theology was useless. Sometimes.

Then I admitted that I wasn’t really saved, on the basis of refusing the sacrament.

What’s next? Well, I’m now out as a conspiracy theorist, Nazi sympathizer and Holocaust denier. At least that’s where it will end up on Google, with my luck.

Yep, it was a list of insults. I’m glad you figured it out. Nobody else seemed to get it. Those dummies thought it was humor. HA!

Michael: I’m far less disturbed by the reference to the clearly-ridiculous Marianism than by the reference to “the Church,” with capital letters. Once we start talking about “her” doctrines (you know, the Church’s doctrines) instead of quoting Scripture, you’re in a world of hurt. Next we’ll invite someone in from the OCA to tell us in great detail how the Orthodox church is authoritative over Scripture, right?

But since we’re not referring to Scripture in any way around here, I’ll just point out that using the IC to answer the question of Jesus-DNA (file under “conception, not ingestion”) reminds me of using natural selection to support a theory of the origin of the universe. “Well, see, there was this big bang.” What banged? “Well, stuff.” Where did the stuff come from? “It was immaculately conceived.” But…

Um, and I’ll take a heaping helping of (JN), thanks.

Funny how the longest insult was directed at me in Michael’s list of who would be doing what after Passion.

Assuming I even see it.

Anyway, Immaculate Conception is completely unnecessary for Christ to have been born without sin. If, in fact, Mary’s being conceived without sex was enough to render her flesh sinless, the same should also be true of Christ, hence negating the need for any such thing.

However, I’m probably going to be the last person to try to figure out some logical reason why Christ was born without sin. It seems to me that, biblically speaking, it has to do with him being born of woman (and even then, where’d the other half of his DNA come from?), but not man. RC’s will usually argue that logic demands the IC, but I don’t really believe in logic (and mathematics is nothing less than the study of boolean logic), and I especially don’t believe in establishing articles of faith based on logic. I’m entirely agnostic on the matter.

One of my co-workers told me today that people who don’t want to see The Passion are being used by Satan. I thought….”hmmmmmmm Jim and Richard…..yeah….Satan….hmmm.”

Our own Alex has seen it and has some comments, including the surprising announcement that it’s not postmodern.

I would also recommend Michael Dubruiel’s sane review.

Anyone care to take the obvious swing at the softball thrown by Jenny? Which can be summarized I think as: “You Protestants that believe Jesus’ human nature was formed from the HS’s work in Mary ought to go ahead and embrace the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.” See what happens when you start debating the divine DNA?

Now Bill, if you can’t cheerfully have your beliefs characterized as “crap” don’t read the “Withering Blast.” It’s very Lutheran to use scatlogical terms. And I think we have to give points for the non-drive-by nature of that proclamation. I’m ashamed that I agree with so much of it. But since there are no non-stupid-crap churches within two hours of my house, I’m just screwed and stuck with the stupid crap. I found myself thinking how often I have debated baptism in the 32 years I’ve been a Christian, and I never heard that credobaptism was stupid crap. But this is ‘04, and we are making progress. I’m wondering if IM Productions should buy the whole post and produce it as a miniseries. The “orgy of heresy” scene looks promising.

Oh yeah. (JN)

I was interested to note that speaking in tongues and baptizing believers are both heresy. (well, the words used were “stupid crap”) Pentecost must have been one huge crapfest.

I wonder which is worse: inventing new heresies or doggedly clinging to old ones? (JN)

If you can get past the warnings for the faint of heart, be sure and read what I’ll call the Withering Blast. Reading in the comments that Lutherans don’t call themselves Protestants, I was once more taken back to my Landmarkist Baptist upbringing, where it was hammered into our heads that we were not Protestants. We were, of course, the true Christians. Even compared to the Indy Baptists, who didn’t use our Sunday School literature.

Charles,

I just wrote a response on your comments page, but thought I would throw them up here too. The councils you would want to look at are the Council of Ephesus (431 AD) and the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD).

As I shared in my comment, the Church has dealt definitively with this in her Christiology.

Why not…
I am going to be getting myself into a trouble with this slightly provocative comment, but in reflecting upon the developement of the idea of the hypostatic union perhaps we might not just get so upset with two little words in the Marian teaching of the Catholic Church ;).

Not to be too cute, one begins with an I, the other with a C.

... New barmaid puts that pretty little cocktail on the counter with a cherry on top and dunks quickly behind the bar, hoping not to get hit by the chair soon to fly across the room.

Michael: My family’s church in San Diego paid extra to book an entire theater for opening night, plus they’ve bought some blocks of tickets for other nights. If you paid $9 or $10 to go opening night, you gut the nice intro from the pastor, no commercials or trailers, and a free copy of Piper’s book on the way out the door. Considering the book is $8 from Amazon, not a bad value at all.

Of course, this church is already known to purchase quality books at the Evangelical Bible Book Store (already a super-cheap and great bookstore, the bricks-and-mortar equivalent of Discerning Reader) and then sell them at below cost. Crazy, man, crazy.

And since you’ve clearly read on my own site that I’m planning to read Capon, there’s no need for an apologia yet. Maybe I’ll decide he’s not as crazy as he describes himself to be in his introduction!

Charles (and all!) Please don’t think that all I get are glimpses of my own depravity. Oh, no. I’m generally pretty well overcome by the immensity of it. That’s why I suggested glimpses—-I’m not able to even begin to relate all the “big” stuff….and I wouldn’t confess it to you guys if I could! Sometimes the “small” things show how utterly ridiculous my real nature is, and I just have to laugh (or cry.) But they also remind me that my sin extends to every fiber of my being.

BTW, that family never did come to our church. Guess it was my fault.

Would it be wrong of me to suggest that the media is continuing to find extreme Jewish opponents of the film and continuing to give them the opportunity to come on TV and vent, all for ratings? And would it be wrong of me to say that if anything results in some drunken bubba egging the local Temple it might be listening to the umpteenth version of this media-led baiting?

OK talk jocks- America will now go to the movie and make up their own mind. The NYTimes and Focus of the Family have done our thinking for us. Now let us go into the theater and see for ourselves.

I’m thinking of buying a case of Piper’s book on the Passion of Jesus Christ. What could I do with them? (Other than pass them out at the BHT Theater rental. How is ticket distribution for that going?) I hear that the local theaters are sold out for two weeks.

I did some hard nosed, “Look at the ugly truth” counseling today, and it seems to have worked out. Thank you, Lord. I don’t deserve moments like that, but you give me so many of them. I didn’t deserve that wonderful illustration right in the middle of my sermon. But you did that, too. I didn’t deserve to have people ask me about Ash Wednesday today, and I didn’t deserve to tell people all day that YOU killed your SON for our sake, but I got to do that FOUR TIMES, plus chapel!

I need to write an apologia for my interest in Robert Farrar Capon. And I have an IM piece on how to read the Bible that is jumping out of my head. (Fresh heresy!! Fresh heresy!!) I have a 90 minute counseling session tonight and I must babysit the “Lack of Talent Show” final rehearsal. (Why is there a reverse correlation between self confidence and actual talent? Why does every Christian girl with an accompaniment CD think she is a vocalist? Argh) Then it’s the Talent Show on Friday, a special worship service (and message) Saturday, and two sermon preps, then two sermons Sunday and Admissions Sunday afternoon. The good news is Noel is coming home for a weekend. (Did you guys know the entire Spencer family is going to the monastery for an overnight March 10? We may all convert to the RCC at once.)

Denise: I find lately that whenever I kill a drifter, I wet the bed for three or four nights. That has to be some kind of indication.

Seriously, though, I think mine was when I lived in your neck o’ the woods. And I don’t know that it was a very small glimpse. It’s this: I don’t deal well with isolated and impoverished people. Well, that’s not entirely true—I deal well with them, especially when it’s part of my job. But I get either a) angry, b) depressed, c) disgusted, d) bitter, or e) all of the above when I see the kind of stuff you see when you go shopping in Manchester. And I don’t think that’s the kind of thinking or attitude God would want me to have in light of those people’s lives.

So there ya go. I am evil, which is a surprise to no one.

PETA kills me. Raising cows for beef indeed. Sheesh. Here and here you’ll find the kind of stuff PETA’s interested in—really important stuff!

I saw a Rabbi on FoxNews this am talking about the “anti-semitism” of Passion. Can you say paranoid? This guy was seeing hatred of Jews under every rock! I plan to see the movie, but as a movie. Can’t we just allow it to be a frigging movie?
And violence? Please. Where were all these people when Private Ryan came out. Or Goodfellas. Or Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Or Requiem for a Dream. (BTW, I like all of those except Texas Chainsaw, which I’ve never seen). Aren’t these people the same ones constantly yelling at the “religious right” for complaining about media content, citing first amendment etc etc?

In case you need a better reason to see “The Passion”, here’s this little ditty from the IMDB:

Mel Gibson has come under attack again – this time from animal rights activists who are furious he’s raising animals for meat at his beef cattle ranch in Columbus, Montana. The Passion Of The Christ director – whose movie has sparked a flurry of controversy among religious groups who fear it will create anti-Semitism – has angered the People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals (PETA), who claim it’s immoral for Christians to raise and kill “God’s creatures” for food. Peta, who on Tuesday staged a day-long demonstration outside his Beartooth Ranch, picketed a screening of the movie at the UA Union Square Theatre in New York last night. The protest featured a 10-foot “Jesus On Stilts”, and a stash of leaflets about “Christianity and Vegetarianism”. The rep says, “We’re saying ‘Thou shalt not kill’ to Mel Gibson. We’re just saying people who oppose violence and injustice should extend that compassion to all God’s creatures, and adopting a vegetarian diet is the best way to do that.”

Screw the ESV. Screw the KJV. Screw the NRSV. You haven’t truly read the Bible until you’ve read it in the original Klingon.

Denise: About depravity. I am afraid I am not getting glimpses anymore. Without resorting to a woe is me type of Christianity – I don’t practice that – I can honestly say that insteading of getting glimpses of my depravity, I now see more of my sinfulness than ever before. There have been times in the last few years when it has felt like a flood of self-revelation. I am glad the Lord has been merciful to me in this area.

Also, Denise, thanks for your feedback on the virginal conception. I think your view may be the correct one in this area. I have some reading and thinking to do.

Michael: Sex cannot cause heart attacks can it? Even if it did I would not stop. :)

PWinn’s Lenten self-denial sort of goes along with my last-year’s Lenten commitment to give up “not drinking.” Unfortunately, I’m completely off alcoholic beverages for the time being (for medical reasons,) and thus this year I’m giving up not not drinking.

I’m working on an article for XMLHead that comes out of the David Friedman “review” of Passion that trots out all the “anti-semitic” elements of the film (Friedman’s view, not mine). Unfortunately, I can’t remember where the link was. Anyone have an idea?

Sorry, Denise, but that’s too uncomfortably close to real religion for me. And, uh, I was a sinner, but now I’m perfect. :-)

On Lent: I was going to suggest that we all share what we’re giving up for Lent. But then we read Matthew 6:16-18 at our Ash Wednesday service last night, and, uh, er, I changed my mind. :)

So…I’m proposing a confession session entitled, “Glimpses of Depravity.” Doesn’t that sound like fun? It goes like this. You tell of a time when you caught a fleeting glimpse of your own depravity (your own—-not someone else’s!) in one of those “little” ways. One of those seemingly innocent things Uncle Screwtape might suggest to Wormwood for his “patient.” I’ll go first.

There’s a family at our school who was fairly recently dissatisfied with their church. They had formerly gone to our church. The wife is extremely musically talented, both at the piano and vocally. Everyone just loves to hear her play and sing. When we learned that they might be looking for a new church home, Michael remarked that perhaps they would be interested in returning to our church. My very first (unspoken!) thought, honest to goodness, was, “NO! Then I’ll never get to play the piano again!”

Yep. It’s all about ME. I think that’s been the name of the game since Eve plucked that pear off the tree.

Since a woman has died from a heart attack during a viewing of “The Passion,” the research staff here at the IM compound have spent the night at their computers and now have a list of things that have been related to sudden expiration by heart attack. Since the media will be urging us to stay away from The Passion because of heart attack risk, these activities are also under a “Code Red” alert, and should be given up by all those concerned about their health.

Sex. Nuff said.
Doing your taxes.
Going to the Doctor.
Going to the Hospital.
Going to the Nursing Home.
Sitting home watching television.
Sleeping.
Eating.
Winning the lottery.
Fixing that drain under the sink.
Any car repair.
Walking.
Running.
Swimming.
Sex. Did I already say that? Sorry.
Drinking.
Walking the dog.
Arguing with Lutherans.

Thanks for the replies on my earlier question about the virginal conception. I had this conversation with my pastor last summer.

I had always believed that Jesus was a special creation in Mary’s womb without her genetic material being involved. My reasoning was that she was fallen like the rest of us and that Jesus, in order to be our redeemer – and remain perfect -could not have a union with fallen human flesh. I had always believed, though, that Jesus was fully human and fully divine simultaneously. And I still believe that.

I had never discussed with this anyone. I found out during our conversations with my pastor that my wife had come to the same position as mine over the years. However, I am rethinking my earlier position on His conception. My pastor believes Mary’s genetic material was involved and that is the whole “scandal” of the incarnation; i.e., that Jesus – the God-man – would take on human flesh like ours and yet still remain the sinless Son of God. He asked some other theologians about this. Their response was that this was an issue in the early church. I need to look this up, but I believe the Council at Nicaea dealt with this as well.

My pastor said that docetism was the name attached to this particular vein of thought; H.O.J. Brown’s book “Heresies” agrees with that. Docetism emphasizes the deity of Jesus over his humanity. At least that is how my limited understanding sees it at this point.

I never knew I was a heretic. Now we have two on this board. :) SW.

The issue with the extreme violence in “The Passion of the Christ” is that different people have diffferent “thresholds” when it comes to violence. When is too much really too much? At what point does it run into the law of “diminishing returns” when Jesus is so beat up that he becomes something other than a human image? What is deeply moving to some may cause others to run out of the theater halfway through. What for some is focusing deeply on the sufferings of Christ for others is grotesque and horrible. But maybe the discomfort is a good thing.

Well, I could bring my cat too, and he could bring his two cats also!!

I gave up giving things up for Lent for Lent. Or something like that. For the record, I had meat sandwiches at church for dinner and skipped the imposition of ashes. Even after I verified that they were indeed the result of burning last year’s Palm Sunday palm fronds, as they’re supposed to be. I’m just a rebel.

Plus, the Dallas Morning News had a photographer there snapping photos and I didn’t want to be in them. She got releases from a row of kids and the lady who wears a headcovering.

I know I have posted a lot of Passion reviews, but I think this one deserves reading. The phrase “religious snuff film” is pretty tough coming from someone who was fairly positive going in.

The dogs are a great idea, especially if the cat people would bring their cats.

Amanda has requested to sing two songs. I say one in the theater. The rest in Jack’s bar with Judson. Tips go to the blog.

Thanks for the views on giving things up for lent.
Even if it was calvinistic..{:>).

Yay! I get to write the sequel!

Matthew, I still want to hear about your mess. I know! You tell about the mess you made of your Ash Wednesday service, and I’ll tell how I butchered the Doxology at our church Sunday. Then we’ll both feel better!

I humbly offer my two dogs to clean up the corn, and I am watching two other dogs for a missionary ,, (dang she’s been gone a long time, I think it’s ruse), they can help too.

Churches Buy All ‘Passion’ Tickets, ‘Pagans can Wait’

(2004-02-24)—Churches across America have bought up all of the theater tickets for the rest of this year’s showings of the new Mel Gibson film The Passion of the Christ, so that church-going Christians can enjoy the movie repeatedly.

According to one denominational official, “pagans can wait until it comes out on DVD.”

“We see this film as the greatest missionary tool in a generation,” said one unnamed denominational official. “It’s too good to be wasted on the ‘lost’, the pagan non-believers. We’re going to use the movie to prove to church members that Jesus is Lord and, more importantly, that He’s a blockbuster hit and just as cool as any other celebrity. Christians don’t have to feel like freaks anymore.”

“Once they see the movie,” said an unnamed pastor of a small Illinois congregation, “they’ll finally realize that what they’ve heard in church all these years is really true.”

Licensed merchandise for The Passion is flying off the shelves of Christian retailers. Among the most popular items, a button that reads: “I Believe in Jesus…Now Showing at a Theater Near You.” [From Scrappleface.]

Well, Passion claims it’s 1st …

Wonder where this will lead?

Well readers, I am excited about the BHT. Good things are in the air. I am upbeat and positive. So much so, that the Internet Monk staff has convinced me to dig into the cookie jar, pull out a wad of cash and go down to the multiplex cinema here in the mall in St. Sadies, Maryland. Why, do you ask?

The BHT is renting a theater for a showing of The Passion. That’s right. We are hosting a trendy outreach. But everyone has to help!

Now, in the spirit of evangelicalism’s all out involvement with this film, I’ve taken the liberty to assign a few jobs. I am, of course, open to your suggestions.

I will be blogging the whole thing live.
Jack will run an open bar.
Bill Mackinnon will give a Gospel presentaion and a long invitation at the end of the movie.
Tim will play the organ while Bill pleads.
Matthew will hand out his “40 Days” Study Guide to all those who make decisions.
Judson will play Irish music at Jack’s bar.
Jenny will hold a seminar in the lobby explaining all the Catholicism in the film.
Phillip will counsel those hesitating at the door.
Richard will have a Bible study with those refusing to go in.
Denise will write a sequel.
Noel will write a review.
Scott will hand out Chick tracts in the parking lot.
Amanda will sing the theme song.
Jim will pick up Mel Gibson at the airport and drive him to the theater.
Kurt will give away BHT t-shirts to lucky ticket holders.
Mike B will have older ladies sign forms agreeing not to sue us if they have a heart attack.
ericrigney will take care of everyone’s kids.
John won’t be able to come because Bono is on Larry King Live.
J.S. will be learning Aramaic.
Ken Boyd will add up all those decision cards into a nifty tally.
Mike Benoit will offer Passion-based counseling.
Russell and Alex will debate whether the film is postmodern.
Steven, Bruce and Charles are new. They can hug people at the doors.
Tom Hinkle can offer immediate baptisms.
Josh (who gave that guy a ticket?) will speak briefly after Bill, and will say “All I know is that my understanding of the Gospel is shaped by the Scriptures, the sacraments, iconography (incl Eastern, Roman, and Reformation) and Christian liturgical tradition, especially the medieval Western meditations on the Passion and the liturgical observance of Lent and Holy Week. From what I’ve heard in the movie, it sounds like Mel’s coming at things from a similar angle, which is why I liked the movie. From what I’ve heard so far from everyone else, it sounds like Michael is totally not of this mindset, that he considers such mindset to be entirely deficient, and really really really does not comprehend that I flatly disagree with his tack on things.”
He was immediately given a stiff drink
Bart will weep throughout the movie, and them beat the snot out of a kid in front of him who said “Shhhh!”
Lurker Scott will be in the parking lot with a sandwich board that says “Mel lied!”

Now, who will clean up the popcorn?

is the day Baptists say to people, “you’ve got a smudge on your forehead”, or worse yet, lick their thumb and try to rub it off.