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| Matthew 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. -John the Baptizer |
Brandon: Geez man, didn’t you see the “do not talk to the Lutheran about Reformed theology” sign that we hung around Josh’s neck? Oh well, he’ll probably elaborate, but this came up before. Your mileage may vary ;-)
Eric: I dunno where I pulled that out of. Bad television/movies or something. That “my boy only fights in the ring” was from like, Rocky 5 or something. Ugh, did I just say “Rocky 5”???
A new fellow (Danny) asked about the frequency of new topics. It’s my observation that the bar is unpredictable about responding to new topics, so I would be cautious. A common new fellow complaint is “I asked for everyone to do whatever, and they didn’t even answer.” That is the BHT. Sometimes the regular, long time posters do respond to one another more than to new folks, so you will be taking your chances. Don’t get your feelings hurt. If anyone chimed in on every post it would be a mess in here. So post away, but be patient if we don’t respond.
Ken Boyd: Well, at least it’s scripture, and at least it’s true if you are a Christian. I am struggling a bit to know how it relates to a lesson on the cross. I’ve seen several versions of the “Father’s Love Letter.”
Kent: I appreciate the greatness of the artistic and architectural achievement, but those massive medieval churches represent a Christian culture, not a healthy church. The church in the middle ages was sick, even though the culture was highly influenced by Christianity. I just think American Christians ought to admit what those of us in education need to admit. When we had small schools, we had a great education system. When we consolidated, our schools became what they are today. When the church was a proliferation of smaller congregations, we were more mission minded and healthier than we are today with the megas as our ideals. And what the megas have done to the average pastor is sickening. Absolutely grotesque. Real pastors are very rare. Everyone wants to be the CEO of a small denomination. American evangelicalism is a disease more than a cure.
Fellows,
Please pray for me. This semester is probably the closest I have come to being overextended in my professional career! I am going to make it, but I need a break! For my mental health (if I ever had any :)
I feel so out of touch with you fine people—some of you I haven’t even met (cyberistically speaking)!
Anywho…
Kurt—was that a Cool Hand Luke reference earlier?
Michael: I won’t say all the things that come to mind about someone hounding you for watching The Godfather. All I’ll say is, when you take care of them, Leave the gun—bring the canolies.
I’m glad to hear good things about Ladykillers. I am Coen Bros. disciple, but I find that many of their movies don’t grab me until the second viewing, at which point I absolutely love them. Fargo is a good example. I was expecting something completely different when I went to see it, so I was thrown. But now I own the DVD and think it’s one of the best movies of the last 20 years.
I love and miss you all. I shall endeavor to speak up more often. In fact, I have some God-stuff questions I’d like to throw out myself when I have more than a few minutes (Jim—I haven’t forgotten your kind offer to help me stumble through some stuff! Soon, brother, soon!).
Fellows,
Things have finally reached critical mass in my doctoral program and I have decided that I spend too much time trying to stay recent on the conversation around the bar so that I can make meaningful contributions to the discussion. I am therefore reluctantly surrendering my barstool to a more worthy conversationalist and moving back to eavesdropping from the alley. With the line at the door I think it wise to bow out gracefully before someone realizes that I don’t really have much insight. Besides, one cannot smoke in a pub in Ireland anymore, and that is a bad omen to be sure.
I have comprehensive exams this August and I am trying to propose my dissertation before the fall so that I can start gathering data. With this pending and my nearly 9-month old daughter, I have been feeling mighty guilty about “wasting” time in a bar, despite the obvious good it has done me in spirit. I have learned a frightful bit from you all, often all the more when you disagree most loudly, but I feel I have contributed little. I appreciate the donation of some grounding to my eroding foundations. Please continue to talk, fight and in general bring out Christ in each other. And for the love of Gard (a guy I knew in high school), use headers and categories so that we lurkers can play along.
If the Lord wills, I will be doing some volunteer counseling work this fall at a local Assemblies of God affiliated organization. Pray for me, as I have only ever heard Rod Parsley speak in tongues and I am sore afraid. – Mike Benoit
The churches (of the middle ages) there certainly had architecture, property, money, ambition, spectacle, and programs. Do you see a difference in them (viz mega-churches)?
If I may answer a very good question. In a short answer. No. I have been to a few BIG churches. I get lost in the crowd. I don’t see a family that loves me. I see a mass of people looking to hit their ‘spiritual checklist’ before hitting the game.
Bleh. RCC, Mormons, and Mega-Churches all offer the same thing. anonymity.
No one sees you come or go. You are but a cog in the machine of spiritualityism that is Christendom.
Rock the boat. Reform. The masses are wrong. Counter-culture.
SEMPER REFORMANDA!!!111
If possible (if I may make a humble request), tomorrow, post your presentation of the Gospel in a minimum of 60 words but less than 75. Thanks. :)
Michael, you said, “It’s architecture, technology, property, money, ambition, spectacle and programs that characterize the large churches. All that may be very, very good, but it’s very cultural.” Now, I know that you are talking about new churches, like Saddleback, but would you take this judgment back in time to the Middle Ages? The churches there certainly had architecture, property, money, ambition, spectacle, and programs. Do you see a difference in them?
JoshI don’t know that you saw a post I addressed to you several days ago. How do Lutherans manage to not be Reformed nor Arminian? Wasn’t Luther quite predestinarian? From what I’ve read in “Bondage”, he certainly seems so. “I was as a beast before Thee…”
Also, are you still in Indiana?
Russell: It’s very brand new. I just ordered it, which means that I’m now in the DR “high risk zone” of getting a personal letter from the bookstore owner telling me to act like a real Christian.
Christian Counterculture and Discerning Reader are promoting Charlie Peacock. Anyone here read it? Any reviews or ideas?
PWinn: What is Kurt? Your manager? :-)
Ehh, don’t you be talkin’ no smack about my boy, got it? You got a beef, you take it up wit’ me, see? My boy only fights in the ring…
Chuck Colson mentions a book that one of my family members is reading, and that represents the intrusion of non-Christian spirituality into Christianity: The Five People You Meet In Heaven. I mean, hey- If cake doesn’t appeal to people, munch away on that junk food. But don’t we have anything from our own tradition worth reading these days? Gawsh I hate to see evangelicals wasting their time reading this Jesus-less pablum.
PWinn: What is Kurt? Your manager? :)
Here’s some of my take. And you have to remember PW for 13 years I was a staff member at big churches. Doing the Youth minister/Associate pastor thing. And all my small churches have sucked- by the standards of the experts. I expect Jesus rather likes them, but who am I to say?
1) When we mention the New Testament churches, we need to be careful, because it’s the habit of American Christians to drag their image of church into the picture. I Corinthians makes it plain: house churches. The letters were to geographical areas. (Diocese? Whoa!) I’d say the best research (Meeks, Wilken, Witherington) would say house churches might be made up of approximately 3-15 families- roughly like synagogues. The letters circulated among those units. Did they gather in some large groups for worship, meals, baptism? It’s likely, but I think the best evidence is that the first 3+ centuries of the Christian church were made up of many smaller house churches without permanent buildings.
2) Churches with more than a couple of hundred members create real problems for the ministries of leadership. Problems of all kinds. I won’t catalog them, but the big church model of a mini-denomination has to change the role of the ministry pretty seriously. I believe in a plurality of elders and many deacons, but I still think that churches in the many hundreds and thousands make the “ground work” of the ministry really difficult. A couple of hundred members are all three-five elders can handle, imo, with any real integrity to the relationship between elders and people.
3) It’s architecture, technology, property, money, ambition, spectacle and programs that characterize the large churches. All that may be very, very good, but it’s very cultural. We are having a chance to see what “big chruches” vs “many smaller churches” do as Christianity spreads to Africa and Asia. I won’t write that essay. Just get this- the smaller church movements are much healthier and more vital. The BIG CHURCH movements have worse problems than we have in America. A hundred congregations averaging 50 is better for Christianity than one 5000 member church.
4) Americans think size means “We’re a winner! We’re better. We’re cooler! We’ve got better stuff.” It’s a cultural idolatry that we just accept way too easily. Big sounds. Children’s activities. Gyms and trips for the teenagers. I’ve closely followed the inability of Piper’s church to split into smaller churches. It frustrates him. And I can see why. It means a lot of those people won’t receive the Word from anyone but Piper. That’s just not right. I think larger churches tend to redefine mission in ways that serve themselves. And I won’t even go into the effect of the mega on churches in the neighborhood.
While I don’t like Hell I want to see “Hellboy”.
The interview went well, I am now in the top 3. Please keep praying if you don’t mind.
Now the QotD (didn’t see it as you answered it already).
One guy in our church, a visitor, 1st time, after the sermon, said “I’d like to say a few things”. My jaw dropped. I thought “Security, tackle this guy” and also “Give this guy a mic”. He basically insulted the pastor, a few of the church members, and quoted Revelation. He was right but his approach was wrong.
I scheduled a meeting after a few questions from a recent sermon. My pastor (previous one) went out to lunch w/ me and we spoke about the sermon and theology behind it.
If speaking about glaring doctrinal issues (libertarian free will, open-theism, etc) I’d bust out Scripture in a heart beat. If the concern was wording or unclear philosophy I’d take a more “question based” approach.
I have learned, even with my own limited preaching, that what one says and what one hears can be totally different. Such as this weekend at a youth conference I attended a preacher said something about Jesus “struggling with the flesh” and I began to look for a noose. I couldn’t believe it. Jesus? Sinful?
I took a pause and thought about his terms and context. I came to the conclusion that the term he used was muddy and had some poor connotation. I stayed my anger and asked another leader if they thought the same and he informed me that he didn’t know if Jesus had a sin nature or not (more anger). I let it go. The rest of his message was good and encouraging. Giving the benefit of the doubt I resorted to letting God use his bad phraseology for the good.
G. P. Taylor, Anglican vicar and author of Shadowmancer, the “next Harry Potter,” according to some. Interesting interview.
Russell: You and I haven’t AIMed much, and that’s fine, so I don’t know anything more than what you’ve put on your blog, here and mailed me, but I was sorta stunned to hear you were at a UU meeting. I really hope and pray that you and your spouse can find some compromise that leaves you some ability to be among people who love the Lord Jesus and the Gospel. From your wife’s experience in the JWs to whatever you’ve been in that sounds pretty awful to UUs. Wow. I just hurt for such a journey, and I pray there is some option that’s not so extreme. Anything just normal and boring out there? (JN) :-)
Kent: I agree that the megas are authoritarian and that is something that’s being ignored. Listen to this from the IM mailbag.
After 15 years with Saddleback my family final left. We were tired of the Purpose Driven Marketing. The teachings are milk toast; the small groups are summed up as a social gathering. If you have concerns or struggles with leaderships, direction or pastors of the church there are no Elders or Deacons or really any mature Christians to give you answers or representations. All the pastors have a chain of command to Pastor Rick and Pastor Rick only answers to God and his wife (which is fine but what about his members?) The members at Saddleback have two jobs, be in a ministry to serve the church and tithe. Everything else is sideline or not considered their purpose.I realize this sounds disgruntled, and the Saddleback Church has billions and billions served, but my friends in megas tell me the same thing. The traditional (PW) relationship between pastors and people vanishes. Pastors become Popes/CEOs/Talking heads. Staff members become Knights of the Round Table, defending the program at all costs. If you aren’t down with it all, then move on. We have 25,000 people waiting for your seat.
This isn’t good. A SMALL CHURCH people. A SMALL CHURCH. You know what a church has to do? Acts 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. That’s it. Do we really need these mini-denominations and their inaccessible leaders to turn out disciples and create a warm and nurturing fellowship?
I’ve got to be in the right kind of mood for Kevin Smith movies. Sometimes he makes me laugh my buttocks off, other times, his stuff is just depressing. I’ll always be amused by Jay and Silent Bob, though.
Speaking of movies, am I the only one here looking forward to Hellboy? I loves me a good comic book movie. I’m also pretty stoked for the next Spiderman flick. I’m such a fanboy.
I’ll ruminate on the QotD and see if I can spit out an answer tonight.
Scott: Yeah I just didn’t like Jersey Girl. You said it best when you said it was “crude.” I think this was my main gripe, besides the fact that I felt the story didn’t really go anywhere. The biggest problem I had was Liv Tyler’s character. She was pointless and sickening. Eliminate her and you would’ve had a good movie. Yes, the “heart” of the movie had a good story, but there were too many disgusting layers surrounding it. I guess my hangups were personal. I hate to see movies with kids in them that discuss and show such mature topics, like this one did. I know kids are learning things younger and younger these days, but still, it makes me sad.
Michael: I was ruminating about the QotD response I’d prepped. I felt like I was a little too chatty for the new guy and was taking Mark Twain’s advice about keeping one’s mouth shut.
Obviously it didn’t take.
Here are my thoughts (and experiences).
When we questioned the statement: “God doesn’t know everything, He only knows what’s ‘knowable’”. We were labeled “Rebellious”.
When we questioned some of the things going on in our church during the “Toronto Blessing”, we were told: “God’s not confused, you are”.
When we questioned leadership we were told: “Don’t touch the Lord’s anointed” (as in David touching Saul).
While discussing scripture with a pastor (not mine) I was told: “Well, I’m gonna have to pull rank on you…”.
When we were told on Monday that we’d not be allowed to ask questions until Friday…let’s just say that “Rebellion kicked in again”.
Over time I’ve grown uncomfortable with our “one man does all the talking” model. I think one aspect of “mega churchianity” is the unhealthy desire to create earthly “popes” to give us structure and definition so that we’ll have an “appropriate faith experience”. I believe that it’s easier to find someone earthly to trust rather than Jesus, someone to tell us what to believe.
Which is a form of pastoral abuse (only in reverse)...Rich Mullins stated (in “Brother’s Keeper”):
“I will be my Brother’s Keeper,
Not the one who judges him.
I won’t despise him for his weakness,
I won’t regard him for his strength.”
I think we need a new (or old) model…hey what about 1 Cor 14:29-33? May the Reformation continue…
Russell: Was “Fight Club” a movie or a hockey team?
Our Sunday School quarterly lesson is about the cross, and it is suggested that we use the following Father’s Love Letter.
Denise: If you take a good-calvinist position, wouldn’t all your sins (and mine) be committed post-salvation? Maybe in a metaphysical way, maybe in a literal way, I don’t know. But I think the man-centered-gospel (ok, was that flame bait?) approach is the only one that cares whether your sins (and mine) were committed before or after conversion.
Michael Card: One of my favorites as well. His Starkindler album is golden. And he raises a stir by recording with the gasp Catholic musician John Michael Talbot.
Michael Spencer: The church I recently departed from had a dialogue style sermon, but the congregation didn’t use it much. When I preached I asked for more dialogue, questions, disagreements, up front, and didn’t hear about peoples problems with my sermon until afterward. It would have been nice to know where we weren’t tracking DURING the sermon though!!!
At the UU church my wife took me to this weekend there were several times when I resisted to the point of shedding blood the urge to stand up and say something. Since everything was run by women and the men were spineless, I figured that would just be offensive.
Kent:
He said: “You show someone you love them by listening to them.”
I learned that from Fight Club.
Michael: I agree. Smith is probably the worst interviewer in the world, and frankly… he ain’t the brightest bulb in the bunch. Combine all that with his relentless vulgarity and voila…
On the upside, though, I do think he had an interesting point on Dennis Miller a few nights ago. They were interviewing him, John Singleton, and an actress about how filmmakers should try to avoid controversial subjects like violence, sex, language, etc. because movies will cause kids to go out and be violent, sexual, and vulgar. Smith suggested that they immediately yank The Passion, since its popularity will obviously cause people to run out and do drive-by crucifixions.
My nomination for Quote of the Day comes from an ad for one of my new favorite TV shows… “Courtney Love flashed her breasts to David Letterman. Who wants to see that? If my dog had a face like hers, his butt would run and hide for fear of being licked.”
I expect to see “Christ Killer” t-shirts in the local Christian bookstore the next time I visit. It seems like a perfect good evangelical conversation starter, no? “Yes, I’m a Christ-killer. We all are. It was our sin….” yada yada yada.
Michael: You music-hater!
I think it’s odd that I’ve become a serious booster of all things traditional at my church, at least for the 10am service. Drama? No! Praise chorus? Heck, no! A video screen? Forbid it, almighty God! Remembering some of our early debates, Michael, I either have to acknowledge that you were right all along or come up with a convoluted way of explaining how I can still be right then and now. Predictably, I’ve taken the second option.
Still, last night was the final night for the departing worship leader for the evening service. Keeping in mind that the pastor of that congregation has repeatedly expressed his desire for more hymns and less praise choruses, guess how many hymns we sang? Zero. None. Nada, zip, zilch. It was a bit surprising, since we normally use hymns for about three out of the four or five usual songs. And while I didn’t hate any of the songs, I only actually would have kept one: Christ Alone. Maybe one other, but probably not.
Also, I have some great Martin Luther quotes I might suggest for the title bar sometime.
P.S. I wonder what purpose is served by anyone’s testimony other than the simple, “By God’s saved, I am redeemed.” Paul mentioned being chief of sinners, but not within the context of a testimony, as I remember it. I mean, I understand the idea behind testimonies—to show God’s power—but I’m not sure I see much Biblical support for the extended variety. Am I missing it?
I brought my trusty record player to work because I want my house and garage to be clean. One of my favorite records is one by some 70’s band called “Pilgrim Friars.” I can’t find ‘em on CD, MP3, or anything, just some old record I picked up somewhere. Has anyone here enjoyed the wonderful tunes of these folks?
A bunch of their tunes would make awesome church songs.
Jim:
Those are great tunes. Wonderful. Spirit inspired. I like them. You like them. Many good folks like them. God is all over them, etc.
But what I say in my essay is that they may not be appropriate (not sinful, just not appropriate) for CORPORATE worship because it may be difficult for a broad, intergenerational congregation to relate to them. Hey…if the whole church was me, we could use the Passion CDs every week. But when I look at my church, I realize my worship leadership needs to work towards congregational accessibility and participation. I ahve to find a median, and not indulge too many of my tastes, or anyone elses, at the expense of participation.
I am discouraged that after two years of discussing worship music, I am still kinda perceived as forcing the Trinity hymnal on all Christians all the time for all worship. Not true. I have enormously eclectic appreciation of spiritual diversity in art, but I believe the reformed tradition is on track to say that popularity with one group may not make something appropriate for congregational worship in a multi-generational setting.
Repetition isn’t bad, but in corporate worship it has some limits. Personal experience is fine, if the congregation can translate it into meaningful worship. (Hence the genius of everything from Psalm 23 to Amazing Grace.) And I have never insisted on systematic theology- just Biblical theology. I know of no hymns about double predestination, though I am sure someone is writing them.
This is a topic I’ll never manage to get over. The impression is already made. Oh well sigh. I’ll just drink.
Scott: Boy do I hate to hear anyone interview Kevin Smith, in person or in print. He’s probably the most offensive, cynical fimmaker I’ve ever encountered. It will take a while for me to get over an HBO thing I saw with him. Yuck.
People: There is nothing more useless in an adult working with students than the predictable attitude that “this student is threatening me.” Hey—- ever been around dogs? Ever see what the pups do? They yap. Ever see what the big, old dogs do? They play with them, and when they start yapping, they act like big dogs and IGNORE them. See big dogs know they are big dogs, and they know pups are pups. Just raise your leg in their direction if they need to know what you think.
BTW- the co-worker who openly taunted me at lunch last week about my admission of watching The Godfather (“What is your job around here?”) is now ignoring me like I am a leper. Legalism is so much fun. What can we be offended about today?
Of course, you all are ignoring my QotD. So everyone is out to get me.
My favorite part of the “christ killer” t-shirt website was how they were trying to act like they were doing something controversial. Please. Manson’s “ANTICHRIST SVPERSTAR” has already sold a jillion copies, and I’ve seen plenty of Cradle of Filth’s “Vestal Masturbation” t-shirts floating around. Sorry, you can’t top that. I also liked the whiny attitude of the founders of the site: “Well, um, that movie makes people want to persecute us Jews and other non-believers, so yeah!” Everyone’s desperate to be a victim; too bad no one’s doing any “pogroms.” No one likes a whiner.
Noel: You didn’t like Jersey Girl? Oh, well… I guess it’s just me being the Kevin Smith fan that I am, but I loved it. Yeah, it was crude, rude… but at its heart, I found a sweet little story about a man who had to, well… become a man. Ben A’s character was selfish, rude, egotistical, arrogant, and hateful… all wrapped up while he was trying to play “daddy”, when he should have been busy being a father.
Probably my favorite of Smith’s works so far.
I will say, however, that I was more impressed by the adaptations I made to my telescope over the weekend. Got great views of the Moon, Venus, Jupiter (with all four visible moons), Saturn (w/ rings), the Orion Nebula, and the Ring nebula.
Church Update: The wife and I have made it known that we’re interested in joining the local PCA church. Got to meet the interim pastor yesterday… have lots of people anxious for us to get involved with their music program, etc. Methinks this’ll be a good church.
I saw Ladykillers as well! It’s a really funny movie, in that subtle kind of way. Sort of had that O Brother Where Art Thou feel mixed with hip-hop culture. Very interesting. I recommend it if you’re just looking for a funny movie, and if you like Tom Hanks. After squirming through Jersey Girl for two hours the day before, any movie was welcome!
Saw Lady Killers…. a good flick minus the profanities. Good churchy music with great dialog. Hanks was tolerable!
I am no longer a “youth leader” at my church, without notice or vote, but I understand. Without a pastor the organization of our church suffers.
Spoke to an elder yesterday about the future pastor (almost ready to do interviews) and asked em for a REFORMED!!! pastor, 38 years old!!!!!!
Prayer for me as I job interview today!
Jim: Thanks for the welcome and the music referral, I’ll check ‘em out. I don’t think the iPepsi caps have gone rural yet, I may just need to iPay.
I believe that both “testimony” and “teaching” are important to the Body; the former especially in the development of fellowship. Knowing the road someone has walked blesses me and helps me to develop love and appreciation for them and for God.
Since you forced me to think more deeply about it I’d have to say that my irritation with “testimony” comes from how it is applied. It seems that we listen to someone give a testimony, we then think that since it worked for “him” (or his church), it’ll work for us (or our church). And (urrgghh) another “program” is born.
We then decide that since we’ve figured out “what works” (the pragmatic gospel), we can then go to scripture and find the verses we need to support our new program…and the rest is publishing history.
So I then propose for review: If good Biblical teaching proceeds from exegesis, does testimony misapplied lead to eisegesis?
Just in case your arteries aren’t clogged enough...
Catching up after a weekend with the family…
I spent yesterday watching a friend’s daughter’s RC high school drama class production of Peter Pan. Watch for an article about it on XMLHead later today.
Phillip, nice catch on the samurai Scotsman. See, it’s all in how you tell the story… [grin]
Michael, I skimmed the Psalms article, and filed it for later reading. Looks good, although I probably will wish you took that panel of reformed pastors to task a bit more for their predisposition and proof-texting. I’ve been doing a lot of reading in Psalms, and now I keep wondering why we don’t have more songs that run like this:
You are a great God, God,
but..
Where the heck are you?
Why don’t you show up?
When are you going to fix all this stuff?
People are trying to kill me!
They hate you! They say bad things about you,
Because, you’re like, never around when I’m covered with icky sores and stuff.
So..
This would be a good time
For you to be here
And wipe them off the face of the earth
But not me
Because, I’m good.
I do what you say.
Well, most of the time,
except when I’m on the roof.
Oh, and I counted the people too,
when you told me not to.
But other than that, I’m down with your plan.
So smite those bastards who hate me and you.
And do it now,
Because living in caves and pretending I’m a loony
Is getting old.
Kent (with a note to Michael too: First, hello and welcome! I think there’s an interesting tie-in with what you call our transition from “teaching” to “testimony” in the church, although I probably don’t share your sentiments about the results. I’ve recently become interested in the recordings made by Alan Lomax of early blues and spirituals (here’s an “Amazon link), and I noticed that many of the things that make some of us reject CCM and P&W (experience-oriented, practical rather than systematic theology, repetition, etc.) are present in a lot of those spirituals and gospel songs. And it makes sense; if I was breaking my back picking cotton in the summer heat, singing A Mighty Fortress isn’t going to do much for my spirits, but I can certainly see myself letting loose occasionally with
Wish I was in heaven, sitting down,
Wish I was in heaven, sitting down,
Oh, Jesus, Oh, Lord, Lord,
Wish I was in heaven, sitting down.
(If you find the original Lomax recordings inaccessable, you might like Tangle Eye’s remix album. It’s worth spending a few Pepsi caps on iTunes, for sure. You can read the NPR review and hear samples.)
Everyone, regardless of what they think of my taste in music, should spent 17 minutes listening to Linda Wertheimer’s interview with Anonymous 4 about their new album of 18th century spirituals and shape-note music. That is, unless you’re already on the way to buy the album.
Also to Kent: Your church doesn’t have a prophecy mic? Either your building is small, has great acoustics, or your pastor has great lungs. Or nobody’s listening… [grin]
Denise, I was talking with a friend of mine who I’ve written some music with, a guy who’s a bit younger that I and who grew up in the church, went to Christian school, etc. He made a similar observation: “Growing up like I did, I had almost no idea what I was saved from.”
We saw Michael Card in concert at a very pivotal time in our lives. He taught us something that he said was the “most important thing he’d learned that wasn’t in the Bible”.
He said: “You show someone you love them by listening to them.”
This bit of wisdom has been one of the biggest blessings of our marriage.
So….who’s got the nerve to wear this t-shirt?
It’s really going to happen: Life of Brian is coming back. Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy.
Evangelical Outpost finally got it together and ran with this story about the killing of a Gorilla in Dallas. (I understand the gorilla was tormented by teenagers prior to the escape and the whole incident is a sad example of human cruelty. But I’m not trying to start a discussion on the obvious fact that humans are cruel.) The amazing thing here is the beginnings of Singer’s “All Animals are Equal” worldview coming to pass. With only 3% genetic difference, what is the reason secularists aren’t…..well, read it for yourself. Get EO’s comments after a Singer quote:
After all, the genetic differences between humans and gorillas are miniscule. We have 97% of the same chromosomes as gorillas and 98% of the same genetic material as chimpanzees (in fact, chimps are—genetically speaking—more like us than they are like gorillas). It would hardly be fair to exclude primates from equality with humans on the basis of a 3% difference. And as Singer points out, “some humans who quite clearly are below the level of awareness, self-consciousness, intelligence, and sentience, of many non-humans.” Without a significant basis in either genetics or characteristics, what grounds do secularists have for not including these animals under the “equal protection” clause of the Constitution? I’m curious to hear their reasoning as, I’m sure, are the few thousand gorillas, chimps, and orangutans now in captivity.
From the blog of our Romanian exile, Jesse, speaking about the visit of a group of Americans to his Bible school.
This put me into a funk which deepened when I watched their program. Most of the program was quite good, and I can’t say anything against their skits, singing, etc. But the youth pastor had to get up for preaching/altar call, which was disastrous. “Why did God create us?” he asked. “The Bible says it’s because he was lonely.” “Where does it say that?” I asked out loud from my seat. He stammered for a minute, until I waved him on, since the point was made. His sermon was one of those “Accept Jesus or you’ll really hurt his feelings” ordeals, but fortunately it was nice and short. He made everybody say the magic words, i.e. sinner’s prayer afterwards, and I’m sure everyone in the room experienced the miracle of God’s love. (JN- ed)Since most of us don’t have the undiluted courage of out young friend, here’s a question:
How is the best way to register a criticism or disagreement with a sermon? Sermons are monologs, and most pastors don’t have any form of feedback in place. Well, that could change. How could any preacher allow criticism, questions or feedback on sermons in a way that would be less confrontational than standing up and lettin’ it fly? (Note: Don’t go too techie on me here with this answer.)
BTW- Young Angry Lutheran has his two year anniversary/Best of post up.
Among my all time favorite artists and poets….Michael Card
There is a joy in the journey,
there’s a light we can love on the way.
There is a wonder and wildness to life,
and freedom for those who obey.
All those who seek it
shall find it,
a pardon for all who believe.
Hope for the hopeless and sight for the blind
To all who’ve been born of the Spirit
and who share incarnation with him;
who belong to eternity, stranded in time,
and weary of struggling with sin.
Forget not the hope
that’s before you,
and never stop counting the cost.
Remember the hopelessness when you were lost?
One Boy = one day’s work.
Two Boys = one-half day’s work.
Three Boys = no work at all.
To all of you parents out there, my hat’s off to you. We’re just finishing up a week of respite foster care. Where do you get the energy?
And for those of you who teach…my enjoyment of young people seems inversely proportionate to quantity. If I had another hat (or even more hair) it would be off for you guys too.
Holy cow, to be a parent and a teacher?
I need to email my Mom and apologize right now…
AMC Gremlin, eh? Too bad, I’m holding out for that rusted Trans Am with the 350 v8 that actually worked, once upon a disco ball.
Movie Review: Chicago ruled.
Even with my recent evolution to a Caponian Cake eater, I still recommend these IM essays. One of them cost me one of my favorite BHT posters, but I never thought they were all that controversial. I mean, I’ve lived through the CCM revolution in worship music. I don’t think my comments are so much a Reformed knot head as they are just a person who got tired of the circus. (Forgive me, fellows, for uttering the term “regulative principle” :-) which is endlessly irritating to some. What I suggest in essays 2 and 3 on here is NOT the legalistic police action some of you have experienced.)
What I Saw at the Revolution The souring of my relationship with CCM. (Part 1)
The Lord Is My Song Toward a workable regulative principle. (Part 2)
Lessons From the Psalms God has plenty to say about worship music. (Part 3)
Looney Tunes The goofy theology of some worship leaders almost makes me laugh…..almost.
Dr. StrangeLiturgy How I wound up a liturgical transvestite
We’re less than 200 posts from the 20,000 milestone. Who will win the AMC Gremlin sitting on blocks next door to the bar? I’m holding my breath.
John Kerry’s Catholicism. I hope evangelicals just leave this alone, and let Jenny harp on it.
An imposter. Kill him. No, actually, it’s pretty good.
Walloworld is the King of the Blogs, and deserves the honor. Very classy blog. Good writing. Added to the sidebar.
I don’t have to preach at all next week. (Sing to “I didn’t sleep at all last night.) Revival twice a day for a week. The revival preacher is an ex-OBI employee, current Warrenite pastor, but a good guy who knows our students and situation. Humble for a preacher, which is rare. And a former baseball coach, so I’m hoping. I have some games this week as our season opens. Pray we get two new kids eligible. Quick.
The good people in our community are having an anti-drug march and rally on May 2nd. It would be hard to communicate to you what our local government is facing with the Meth labs, pot farms and dope dealers. A lot of the local pastors have decided to put bodies in the street to show dealers, politicians and law enforcement that something has to change. Law enforcement has already stepped up their efforts. The local prosecutor- one of my elders- and judges are doing good work. Now they are asking the local pastors to get people in the streets to show community support. So we’re supporting it, both at church and school.
One thing that encourages me is there is an emphasis on helping the people involved with drugs and not just throwing every user in jail. A lot of these users are local young people who are in way over their heads. Addicted, sick and ruined. It’s horrible to see. They need treatment, and the group is hoping to get Federal money to allow judges to send more users to treatment. I know that will irritate the libertarian purists amongst you, but in a community with no industry and no capital- the 118th poorest of Ky’s 120 counties, and the 10th poorest county in America- we need help to help these people. Pure and simple. So we’re praying for Citizens for a Better Clay County Anti-Drug March and Rally on May 2nd.
And very special thanks to this weekend’s Internet Monk tipper. (The C.S. Lewis on a Harley tattoo cost $85, if anyone cares.)
The heart: Hearing our sermon today brought me to many thoughts. I can’t keep on track while most people preach. I thought of the heart as he brought up the uniformity of the human heart.
Whatever peice of land you are on the heart is the same. A cheating wife, while the external may speak apathy, the heart is torn. There is something about Jesus that speaks to everyone’s heart. If He speaks of sin it tears us up or makes us angry. If He speaks of compassion we all would love that same spirit. The heart is spoken to by Scripture in a way little or no other book can.
My heart was torn once by a beautiful girl, while her name wasn’t Kara she was special. I left her and sadly didn’t look back. My heart is torn as she has moved away from our Lord. My heart bleeds anytime I hear her name or her voice. What I called my best friend actually was the love of my life. The termendous sense of loss knowing I’ll never see her again leaves me in want. Only Christ and Him alone can give the peace of God. I doubt I’ll find this peace to my satisfacation until I reach Glory’s side.
I have yet to read IM’s new article but I hear it is a good read. I’ll look forward to this later this week.
Prayer if you could, I have a job interview tomorrow and God ordaining I’ll get it.
Until then, salinte.
Deep Thoughts The tavern is deserted. Looks like I’m kicking around here all by myself today. Sounds like a good time to share my occasional deep thought; nobody’s here to question me or disagree! O.K. It’s this: I’ve always been a church-goer from the days of my infancy. I’ve been a Christian from a very early age. And I was a goody-two-shoes kind of kid. Though I usually prefer to think of sin (singular) instead of sins (plural) I’m going with the plural right now. It just hit me a day or so ago (continued ruminations post The Passion of the Christ, no doubt) that because I was saved as a child, some 99.999% of all of my sins that put Jesus on the cross were sins I’ve committed since becoming a Christian. And sins I have yet to commit as a Christian. That’s a very sobering—-and somewhat heart-sickening—-thought. Wow. Thank goodness “there is now no condemnation…”
Michael: Thanks for directing me to the Psalms essay, my first scan made me think that the essay is what would have been produced if I’d had a Vulcan mind meld with a real writer. Same Spirit, same thoughts…Laurie and I will read it together later. We had a discussion along the same lines on the way to Fargo yesterday.
I think that there is a community role somewhere in Judaism that is in effect a liturgist.
I believe that our transition from “teaching” to “testimony” in the church (the pragmatist’s gospel?) has opened the door. One time I went to a sound system workshop for the church we attended and was stunned to learn that a lot of churches had “prophecy” mics. Hmmm…
It’d probably be good to keep a pile of stones handy too…
Russell & Phillip: Up here in the land of 11,000 lakes (there’s been a recount) “Our Lady of the Lake” takes the cake (urrggg!).
Kent: Welcome, and I like this:
I had a thought: Is modern worship music a conversion of “one man’s experience” into liturgical practice?And I’d say yes, but it didn’t start with modern CCM. In my essays about worship music, I observe that what happens with the Psalms is the experience of one person is “owned” by the community as the beginning of liturgy. So whether it’s Psalm 23 or 51 or another example, this isn’t really out of bounds. I think the role of artists in the church is to produce an individual statement of experience, and then it’s the role of the leadership of the church to find a way to incorporate that into worship. (It really highlights for me that there is a role for the liturgist as a legitimate calling.)
Here’s my essay on using the Psalms in worship.
Phillip: Thank you very much. I’m getting nice notes already. I’ve wanted to write this one for a while, but couldn’t get the time. So I took off baseball practice and just did it. (BTW- GO ROUGHRIDERS!)
I really want to say to the world that the obedience of faith is what God desires, not obedience with results. This changes EVERYTHING because it takes the measuring, bean-counting process largely out of our hands. It means that when we deal with the observables (in the visible church), we do a major double-check on our humility and on what faith really is as Jesus illustrates it. So all kinds of people with pretty unimpressive or invisible results (by some accountant’s calculations) are the great examples of faith. (Look at the thief on the cross.) This is one way I know I am around actual cake eaters. They treasure the Gospel of by grace through faith, and see works vitally connected, but they also realize measuring those observable works as evidence of faith is foolishness. This doesn’t take away the importance of a single admonition, but it sure pulls the rug out from under pride.
It’s what obedience comes FROM- Faith!- not what it leads to- works- that is the difference between the Gospel and legalistic thinking, imo.
You people have GOT to read this hilarious Megan Cox Gurdon/NRO piece on packing lunches for little kids JUST TO READ THE CANADA PART! Good grief, Richard. You have my prayers.
Michael: Your grace article is great—very challenging. I’ve printed it (six pages!) and my wife and I are going to go through it beginning later today. I’ve already read her a few highlights. Truly, this is one of your better articles.
Russell: My favorite would have to be “Our Lady of Perpetual Motion.”
Jim: Speaking of stories missing key details, that story about the Scotsman who killed an armed robber with a sword and went to prison was also missing an important detail. Turns out he was a drug dealer, and went to prison for drug charges, not the stabbing.
Thanks iMonk for the grace article. Somehow it reminded me of “Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility” – the church of Lake Wobegon.
IM is updated with my new essay. “Our Problem With Grace.” The last section could be one of my better moments. The subject inspires me.
I also have a new short piece up at michaelspencer.us.
If you are a typical Protestant and don’t have any idea how Catholics look at mass, and how that differs from our evangelical view of worship, let Amy Welborn’s comments today shed some light for you. I am a Protestant, and a Reformed one, but I appreciate deeply what Amy is saying about letting the scriptures speak. God bless you, Amy. Your blog is a real ministry.
I really enjoy Robin Mark. Garments of Praise is a great tune.
I should probably add to my list:
Reverend Gary Davis (original)
Peter Paul and Mary (remix) : Samson and Delilah
Here’s a question: Is Bob Dylan going to be in heaven? Followup: Will he actually be able to sing there?
The most hated man on the BHT, in his natural habitat. Kurt, I’m sending you a framed print! :-)
You probably heard the reports, or even ran into some web editorials about the woman in Utah who’s being charged with murder for failing to heed a doctor’s advice and allow her unborn twins to be delivered by C-section. It’s been part of the office buzz here for a while, mostly because I’m surrounded by people whose opinions on abortion rights give me kidney pain. What you may not have heard, and what somehow I missed in all of the conversations, confrontations, and web surfing, is the tidbit at the bottom of this news brief: the woman in question is a cocaine and alcoholic user, and the surviving baby had the substances in its body at birth.
I know we don’t talk about abortion here, and I’m hardly one to jump on the bandwagon with those ready to hang this woman (who obviously has more issues in her life to deal with than just not wanting C-section scars), but it bothers me that I didn’t hear about any of this until now. Is this just a momentary blindspot of mine?
I had a thought: Is modern worship music a conversion of “one man’s experience” into liturgical practice?
I say this in a world in which “surviving the test of time” means “they’ll still carry it next month”.
For those of you who dare to try believing again, and maybe sense the therapeudic value of caring about something more than theology every so often, here’s a wonderful Baseball season preview, complete with a recommended blog for every team.
PWinn: I want a cap!
And I will gurantee you, nothing is cooler than taking your kids to a Minor League game. I mean, is anything cooler than this?
Here’s Minor League baseball’s site. Find a team near you (see the geographic locator), go see a game…...and buy me a cap.
Who are you going to listen believe, your mom, or one of Australia’s top doctors?
Speaking of music in the church…
I pray for Eminem. I want him to convert, love Jesus, and rap a mad set of lyrics for the JC! woot! (what a great testimony he’d have).
On Sanctification: The holy father (jn) Edwards says that Sanctification ”’Tis as much the nature of one that is spiritually new born, to thirst after growth in holiness, as ‘tis the nature of a newborn babe, to thirst after the mother’s breast.”
Westminster Shorter Catechism;
“What is Sanctification?”
Answer: Sanctification is a work of God’s free grace whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God and are enabled more and more to die unto sin and live unto righteousness.
This definition may read differently due to how one defines the “image of God” but I agree we should look like both Adam and Jesus. Adam in the sense that we are to walk with God, as a created being and created for His work. As Jesus, as to a righteous servant and love for all mankind.
Now a totally different topic. I found Hodge funny in his presentation of the atheist position.
Atheism does not call for any separate discussion. It is in itself purely negative. It affirms nothing. It simply denies what Theism asserts. The proof of Theism is, therefore, the refutation of Atheism. Atheist is, however, a term of reproach. Few men are willing to call themselves, or to allow others to call them by that name. Hume, we know, resented it. Hence those who are really atheists, according to the etymological and commonly received meaning of the word, repudiate the term. Volume I, ch.3
Hymns Great to read, (for me) difficult to sing. There is a guy who is working on taking Scripture readings, adding a techno background, and sending them to me. Plus he’s a cool guy because of his site.
How much (or what kind of) “life change” should one see in the first few months of a NEW Christian’s life?
The “first few months of a NEW Christian’s life” are exactly when? None of my children are baptized, so I shouldn’t expect it, right? My nephew was baptized as an infant; shouldn’t the Holy Spirit’s influence mitigate against the “terrible twos?” In my own story, would that be when I was 8, and prayed the sinner’s prayer with my dad? When I was 16, and walked away from fundamentalism in favor of the reformed tradition? When I was 25, and was confronted by the Lord over my lifestyle? Or at one of the several points afterward where there was a shift in my understanding and awareness of God’s work in my life? Last November, when my life fell apart (or three weeks later, when I had a Damascus Road experience?) Last weekend, listening to Brennan Manning, watching God blow away much of what I thought I knew about Him?
My experience has been that God is systematically drawing me to Himself through the events of my life. All of my own attempts to “get closer to God” have been miserable experiences; they were neither enjoyable during the effort nor ultimately of value except as a negative lesson. So I would say the following things about sanctification generally:
I’ve met people who were completely and instantly delivered from addictions as a result of coming to Jesus. I’ve met Christians who spent their entire lives struggling with particular sins and never having more than a few day’s victory. Which of these is more sanctified? Which of these is more qualified?
If you want to experience the hypocrisy behind this, here’s a test. Next Sunday, in the middle of your worship, stand up and boldly confess to having lustful thoughts, and praise the Lord for delivering you from them several years ago. State clearly that you are making this public at the prompting of the Holy Spirit, to bear testimony to the Lord’s power and grace and provide hope for others with similar issues. Then, after the service, approach the pastor and ask to serve in the children’s ministry. See how fast he calls you back.
Disgusting example, right? Absurd to even think of it, right? Fine, I agree; even I would have difficulty with someone who did that. Now play back the same scenario, but substitute some more socially acceptable sin – let’s say gluttony, or greed, or anger. Does it end differently? If you say no, then you’ve probably just lied. Better not confess it, though. If the nominating committee gets wind of it, they might pass you up for deacon… More »
Prayer Request Update: Everything seems to be checking out OK. I’m going to live. Getting more tests in 3 weeks, but mostly just to confirm that I’m going to live.
Thanks for your prayers.
Johann Sebastian Bach was one of the greatest musicians that the Church has ever had, and Josh gets to claim him as a fellow Lutheran. If I am not mistaken, he wrote a lot of music specifically to be played in church. Besides being a genius of musical composition, he was also a theologian. The Church today should be so blessed with such a man to bring wonderful music with sound theology into our churches! [This was, in fact, something that Craig Parton was begging to be done again in his book “The Defense Never Rests”, a kind of apologetic work for the Lutheran Church.]
Now, if you remembered my post from last week, you may be wondering why I am lauding the 17th century Bach and not Sebastian Bach of Skid Row, the 80s hair band. Well, it seems that being around the classical music last week actually started me down a path of liking classical music. As I was listening to Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” a couple of nights ago, I realized that I was wishing I had some classical to listen to. Don’t get me wrong; I wasn’t hating one of PF’s master works (okay, Roger Water’s masterwork), but I realized that the music was rather drab and lacking in the fullness that most classical has.
As for operas, I hated L’Italiana in Algeri, but I thought that Rigoletto was a great time.
A good post from Lurker Brian Boss:
“Our church started as a monthly hymn sing on the first Saturday of the month. The church is now three+ years old and we’re still having them, and they are still well-attended. We have a “hymn of the month”, which we learn in four parts. Families are encouraged to work on them at home with CDs the church has put together that have each part played out (for those who don’t have a piano player at home). During the church service itself, we sing the HOTM by parts and then altogether. And at the hymnsing we sing the hymns we have learned. We have even tackled the Hallelujah chorus the last two Christmases. Less than half of the members of the church come from a tradition (or prior church) that had hymn-singing. It’s been a revelation to them, many of whom had decided that the old hyms were dirge-like and boring. Personally, I grew up in church that sang exclusively hymns and many Psalms, and I love them. Nothing better than a hymn sung in four parts with accompanied by a pipe organ. I agree whole-heartedly that the PW stuff is nearly unsingable. I remember listening to Moody radio (I’m in Chicago area) and thinking to myself, That is nearly unsingable. Of course, at the end of the song, the DJ said, “Well, that’s a great new song. We’ll be singing that in our churches very soon.” Huh?”
Thanks Brian.
I’m not going to lie and say that I don’t struggle with legalism sometimes. Most of the time, its when I’m thinking about somebody else’s sin and ignoring my own. I’m good at pointing out what YOU shouldn’t be doing. What I do is between me and God, heh.
That said, I hope I can rise above that, at least for one post. I do draw a distinction between Law and Gospel, and I don’t lump justification and sanctification together. At least, not on purpose.
How much (or what kind of) “life change” should one see in the first few months of a NEW Christian’s life?
I lived a good bit of time as what I’d called a “lasped believer”. I honestly believed that Jesus had died for my sins, I just didn’t care to let that affect my actions much. Surely, I would have frequent periods of conflict and guilt, but I got pretty good at ignoring that kind of thing.
God didn’t leave me alone. Through the Spirit’s conviction (whoo-hoo, a “feeling led” reference! [JN]) and the example and discipleship of other Christians, my passion for God was greatly magnified. I don’t want to say that I “got back on track”, because, I don’t dare to pretend that I’m “a-Ok”, right now. I’m still a miserable sinner and a screwup.
With all that said, I don’t see a flaw in expecting a Christian to behave as one. I knew the truth and, if confronted, would confess that same truth, but I got very good at avoiding it when the truth became uncomfortable. But, it was still there. I could ignore Christ, but I could not deny Him.
For new believers, I feel it is important to encourage and admonish them to grapple and deal with this truth that they now possess. For those that err, I feel it is the job of the church to charge them with “acknowledge Christ in this, or deny Him.” We’re not to be fault-finders, but the church is charged with leading its members to repentence and, if they won’t repent, to eventually put them out of the church.
Santification is a continual process. In regeneration, God renews our hearts and gives us that deposit of faith that lets us see the truth. A Christian can ignore this faith, but cannot, I think, deny it outright. Only God can see the heart, but I think that we need to make our best efforts to discern nonetheless. Paul spent a lot of his words saying, essentially, “because you have been given the truth, now live as if you do.” There will be false sheep in the flocks, and, in our limited human view, we should do what we can to pick them out.
Jim: During The Great Church Hunt of 2003, I visited a PCA church in which the “special music” (that which we Episcopalians call the “offertory,” and during which we sing) was that very song – “I have decided.” I think objections come from people overly-sensitive to any hint of perceived intrinsic righteousness. I don’t like the song, but that’s not a doctrinal issues, it’s a stylistic issue – it smacks of dreadful country music in every arrangement I’ve ever heard. Yes, we are monergistically saved by God’s grace. But from our human perspective, we still decide and choose and act and serve.
In general—and knowing very little about MWS—one can be extremely concerned about sloppy theology and still be incorrect.
Overall, it seems that most of the hymns you mention are pretty recent, no? I don’t recognize several, at least.
Bill: The commentary is currently out of print, but you can pick it up here. The title is “James, the Apostle of Faith: A Primary Christological Epistle for the Persecuted Church.” I give it a qualified recommendation, as I didn’t agree with all his conclusions. However, the completely different take (a letter of instruction for pastors full of semiticisms alluding to the Gospel) was refreshing.
Didn’t CS Lewis call hymns “second rate poems set to third rate music”?
Josh: Is that commentary on James online anywhere?
Welcome: All the new guys!
Should there be a change in a newly regenerate Christian? Yes. Please don’t make me be more specific than that.
CCM is one of those topics I love to post on and hate to post on at the same time. It’s hard for me to be critical of someone like Michael W. Smith, because of what I know about him. So all I’ll say about “Above All” is this: you might not agree with what he’s saying, and that’s fine, but please don’t attribute that to sloppy theological thinking. That sort of thing matters a great deal to him, from what I’ve seen and been told. (My brother toured with him for some time.)
If you have a problem with I will open up my heart and let the healer set me free , then what exactly should be the believer’s prayerful response of thanksgiving be to their awareness of the persistent seeking of a loving God after them? Maybe you prefer and I will sit on my butt and not try to do anything but passively wait for you, because I’m just a worm after all… The only problem I have with “I Could Sing of Your Love Forever” is that sometimes the worship gets caught up in the spirit of the song, and we actually do end up singing of His love forever, or at least over and over. But that’s not a bad thing necessarily…
I do have a slight problem with the line from “Now Is the Time” that seems to imply that those who seek now have a special blessing over those who will bow “one day,” but it’s probably just a residual reaction against premillenialism, so I sing it and move on.
For that matter, a lot of hymns suck. And some of them don’t suck badly, but they need amending. I’ve made it a personal crusade to get the slides for “Near the Cross” changed so what we sing ”’til my ransomed soul shall find..”; the original word there is “raptured”, which isn’t an awful idea (when I enter the “rest beyond the river”, I expect to experience rapture as an emotion), but it tends to validate premillenialism.
For that matter, how many people who sing “Marching to Zion” out of the hymnal actually believe that “Religion never was designed, To make our pleasures less.” Of course, hymn writers like Watts were smart. The objectionable stuff gets put into the 2nd verse, because everyone knows that Protestant liturgy (excluding Episcopals for a moment) studiously requires singing verses 1, 3 and 4.
In our dispensational Baptist church when I was a boy, we’d end up singing “We’ve a Story to Tell to the Nations” on Missionary Sunday. When I was old enough to understand eschatology, I thought that was funny.
I have seen the following songs used effectively as part of worship:
Steve Winwood’s Higher Love
Metallica’s Nothing Else Matters (as a sermon illustration)
Bob Dylan’s Gotta Serve Somebody
I have myself performed the following songs as part of worship:
Bruce Cockburn’s All the Diamonds
Blind Willie Johnson’s The Soul of a Man
Mississippi John Hurt’s Blessed be the Name
I fully intend to sing Tom Wait’s Come On Up to the House, as Kurt mentioned. When it happens, I’ll post an mp3.
I’ve also performed contemporary arrangements of these hymns
Come Thou Fount
Near the Cross
Jesus Loves Me
I Have Decided to Follow Jesus (in an OPC church, to the consternation of hypercalvinists everywhere)
Nothing But the Blood
I recently was taught a pair of P&W songs that I’m intending to incorporate into our worship at PCNP. One is “We are a