Ben sends this along:

Isn’t it great that our Lord lived a NORMAL, maybe even UNEVENTFUL life for ~30 years. NOT discounting his ministry and redemptive work, why doesn’t anyone talk about that? When I’m stuck in rush hour traffic on my way into work tomorrow, the thought that Jesus had to work to put food on the table comforts me more than all the miracles Jesus ever did. His humanity—not his miraculous works—blows my mind! God in flesh—ridiculous, amazing and life changing news!

Ok. Let’s try this on for size.

I’m really unhappy with Protestantism’s Bible thing. (Jim- you gotta write that “Magic Book” essay.) Here’s the deal. My experience of evangelicals is two messages: #1 Jesus and #2 We got the Book with all the answers.

The Jesus message keeps me in my place. I am a creature, fallen, living out this normal human existence and Jesus is God revealing Himself and loving me. I am still limited, fallen, sinful. I don’t have any answers. I just have faith in Jesus, which really just amounts to a starving guy admitting his appetite for the bread of Life.

The other message is the problem. Telling Christians they have a book with all the answers, all the authority, all the truth is not humbling to most of them. It’s empowering, and not in a good way. It “dehumanizes” us, and we start acting like we are God. Or that we know God and his “Word” well enough that we can do whatever we want as long as we have enough scripture verses.

Evangelicals have multiplied this problem. Catholics have minimized it (while magnifying it.) P/Cs have gone nuts with it. I don’t want anything to do with it. I don’t want to be the answer man. I don’t want to be running around with the answers for anyone other than as a human being who has graciously been given some light and truth in Jesus. I mean, ALL the truth is in Jesus, but what I get is Jesus, not the Encyclopedia Biblica.

The reason evangelicals seem so “unhumanized” is they’ve taken on the gnostic mantle with various forms of Bibliolatry that elevate their own ability to understand the truth too high.

Yelling scripture verses at anyone is almost always wrong.

Matthew:

If I and others only gave when we felt good about it then our church wouldn’t be able to feed as many poor and hungry as we do.

I wish I knew of a church who spent itself on feeding the poor and hungry. But I’m probably one of those nasty somethingists who thinks giving is about giving yourself to others, not necessarily about cash. And maybe Jesus was serious about that “I was hungry/thirsty/naked/in prison and you did/didn’t help me out.” thing.

“Why I Speak-Out Against Error and the Advocates of Error…”
“Beware of false prophets, which inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

Now why didn’t I think of that. I could consume my time with being a self-appointed “enforcer of everything that I know to be true and can prove with proof-texting” rather than doing this hard work of loving people.

Kurt,

Ok, you’re right, that deserves a little more bait. I used to be an avid tither and I stopped to the relief of my conscience before God. I find more than a little obnoxious the disgruntled exhasperation of those who tithe out of obligation against those who don’t tithe out of either ignorance, apathy, or genuine conviction. “One who does not tithe” is not synonymous with “one who does not give.” In fact, a friend of mine insists on not tithing because he finds that he is less generous with what God has entrusted to him when he needs to keep an accounting of it.

I will read Desiring God eventually, its on my list of things to do. In the meantime, can you tell me if Piper points out that the Bible tells us to invest our money? And to use money to win friends and influence people? And to give everything away? And for evangelists to not take money with them, expecting those whom they evangelize to cater their meals? I just point these out to illustrate that we can use the Word to proof-text any peculiar point of view of money that we’d like.

The Question: Agree or Disagree: Those who claim to be specially “anointed” are promoting an Old Covenant view of the work of the Holy Spirit.

“Office” based ministry rather than “as-the-Spirit-moves” based ministry. Office of the Prophet rather than the gift of prophecy for the moment, Office of the Pastor rather than the gift of pastor for a season. 99.9% of churches seem to operate on “Official” positions rather than a “whole-body” or holistic church paradigm.

Here’s an update from my faith journey. Some things are going to have to change or I’m going to fall apart as a Christian and as a person. I’m open to your comments.

My current good read is Roger Kahn’s The Head Game, which is a history of/meditation upon Baseball from the standpoint of the pitcher. Kahn is the kind of writer I would dream of being. Efficient, yet rich. Highly observant, humorous and all business. He’s fun to read, no matter what the topic.

How about a question? Really more of an observation. I’ll keep it as a statement.

Agree or Disagree: Those who claim to be specially “anointed” are promoting an Old Covenant view of the work of the Holy Spirit.

In my Pentecost Sunday message, I did the second part of two sermons. I had preached on the Ascension as the most overlooked major event in scripture and now on Pentecost as the most misunderstood event in scripture.

There are two reasons for that misunderstanding: 1) We simply don’t understand the Trinity at all. 2) We usually think of the Holy Spirit as either a “thing” or as an “experience.” Because of these problems, we are susceptible to the notion that the Holy Spirit does weird, strange or miraculous things, rather than doing “ordinary” things, “ordinary” meaning not accompanied by unusual manifestiations.

So from there I undertook a defense of the “ordinary” work of the HS as being primary, constant and ongoing. The unusual has a place, but it’s not what the Christian life is all about. When we think that the work of the HS is the production of an Unusual spiritual experience, then we quickly begin manufacturing ways to have experiences, and there grows up a garden of religious experiences that allow elites to claim to have the HS while others do not. (In our age of psychology and technology, it’s pretty easy to produce “God.”)

What we might pray for is 1) the ordinary work of the HS 2) poured out in an extraordinary manner.

Madonna is now officially boring.

Someone else who is boring is Bob the Spurgeon obsessed Fundamentalist, who wrote me…..well, something just short of 8 letters yesterday, all because he can’t see any real point in honoring my request that he not spam the net with an essay picking me apart. An essay where he makes fun of my weight before he’s half done, and ridicules a story I tell about being in a revival at age 11. In correspondence he calls me a “pope.” It’s unbelievable. After ridiculing my first essay on invitationalism- which is nothing but personal history- Bob writes and says he “skimmed” the other two essays- the ones with the actual Biblical and theological arguments- and won’t be responding to them because they say nothing new. Ridicule ME, but ignore my arguments. How charming. Bob isn’t just a grown man, he’s a senior adult, and he’s acting like a drooling, cage phase Calvinist who just discovered the net. If you’d like to read Bob’s essay about me, write me and I’ll forward it to you. You’ll pray you get Alzheimer’s before you get like this.

When I make my mental list on whether I still believe in the Christian faith, guys like Bob shouldn’t really count for much, but I’m sorry- they do. They count for too much. They purport to know Jesus, but they’re mean. Humorless. Without manners or common decency. Yet, they are quite sure they are God’s spokesmen. They make me sad. I don’t want to be associated with them, not even distantly. If there is a heaven, and we get there, and I punch Bob in the face, will I get thrown out?

BTW- Mean Dean, if you are out there, you really need to review this site :-)

I hereby challenge anyone to demonstrate to my satisfaction that Bob Ross has nipples. I don’t believe it can be done.

Interestingly, the chapter in DG about money says nothing about tithing. Tithing is Old Testament law, and was basically an income tax for ancient Israel. I do not believe we are bound by the law of tithing any more than we are bound by the law not to eat pork or shellfish. The proper attitude about giving for Christians today is expressed in the New Testament—giving freely with a cheerful heart. It’s not my business what other people give unless I’m the pastor or the financial officer of the church and have to send out those little forms for tax purposes saying how much a person gave this year.

And I don’t know if I’m just tired and grouchy this afternoon or what, but I’m weary of the concept of “obedience” like we’re a bunch a trained dogs that God tells to sit, stand, roll over, and play dead. Maybe I’m just a rebel who will wind up in h-e-double-hockey-sticks.

Kurt, it must be our ethnic roots that make us think alike ;) I was thinking about that chapter in DG, too. If I and others only gave when we felt good about it then our church wouldn’t be able to feed as many poor and hungry as we do. I’m probably identified as one of those nasty legalists who thinks giving is about obedience, though, so take my view with a grain of salt.

Oh, and Kurt, we’re meeting my college roommate and his girlfriend for breakfast tomorrow at the Cracker Barrel in North Little Rock. Thanks for ruining that name for me ;) I’ll never think about CB again in the same way.

Been meaning to share this bit of mirth here, but I’ve been too lazy. I always find the secular historian’s take on Christianity to be amusing at best. These are from “The Penguin History of the World”, by J.M. Roberts.

On Luther: Nevertheless, he now rejected transubstantiation (replacing it with a view of the eucharist even more difficult to grasp)...

On Calvin: If Luther, the Augustinian monk, spoke with the voice of Paul, Calvin evoked the tones of Augustine. It is not easy to understand the success of this gloomy creed.

Well, I thought that they were funny, anyhow. Stuff always looks different from the outside peering in.

Michael: I went to that Bob Ross (isn’t he a painter?) fellow’s page, just to glance, and saw he was on about something called “hard-shellism”. Is that like, when you have a poor wretch who doesn’t understand just how special flour tortillas are?

Speaking of tortillas, PWinn and I saw the craziest movie ever yesterday. I’m sure he’ll write up a review in his blog in the days to come.

Russell: You trolling again man? :) I’m prescribing you Piper’s chapter on money in Desiring God.

St. Francis of Assisi by G.K. Chesterton: My review of the book. I’m reading up on St. Francis because of Rich Mullins’ apparent inspiration from him. The episode I found particularly relevant to today is Mullins’ attempt to stop the Crusades by going to talk to the Saracens. His intention to convert the Mohammedean world would have saved the planet 90% of its wars and bloodshed.

Matthew J:
This morning the church I visited had this to say at the end of the service: “We’re going to take a collection now, and if you’re a visitor I don’t want you to feel obligated to give. Actually, if you’re a regular here I don’t want you to feel obligated to give. Giving to God should come out of a glad heart.” (or something like that)

So maybe its a good thing your church people don’t give.

Pearls is excellent today. I could be rich if I just could get rid of my conscience. It would be easy.

My mailbox has recently been filled with e-mailed articles, links and essays from Bob Ross, who runs Pilgrim Publications, the Spurgeon reprint company. He’s on a tear to prove that Spurgeon was an invitationalist. I’m not sure what Bob thinks people mean when they say Spurgeon didn’t use a public invitation, but what he should understand is that he didn’t use an ALTAR CALL. Yes, he was very “invitational” otherwise. So Bob is on a crusade, and I am getting the stuff, unasked for and unwanted. I’ve ignored it. But of course…..he finds my essays on the invitation. First he mails me this line in the sand challenge to prove yada yada yada and then he emails quotes from my essays to his whole list with disparaging comments about me personally. If I needed anything else to finish me off on Calvinists, this would be it. I wrote him two notes, one nice, one less nice, and asked him to stop distributing my stuff without permission, to quit insulting me in print and to stop mailing me his Reformed spam. You know what really bugs me? I’ve done a lot of business with this guy! What is it with Reformed booksellers?! Is it required that you be a rude, crusading zealot who fills the mailboxes of your customers with unwanted, personal theologizing? Seems to be a common problem.

UPDATE: After reading Bob’s personal page, and discovering that he is a raving J. Frank Norris Texas-style-fundamnmentalist who thinks Saddam Hussein is the little horn, I think it’s best that I be kind. I don’t want anything seriously violent to happen to Kurt or Phillip :-)

I thoroughly enjoyed that Willard conversation. There are two reasons I liked it: 1) The more I read about salvation the more I come to see it in larger terms than merely justification. Joel Green recently published a book with Chalice Press that goes into this issue with far more depth than I’ll ever be able to understand. 2) It’s really anti-PDL. Willard seems to tackle the serious lack of discipleship within the church today. He’s right about tithing, too. Our people give less than 3% (on the average) to the church. That’s really sad considering people like Heather and I who give 10+% are balancing out people who give nothing. That’s crap.

Scott, So the daughter-in-law and granddaughter are putting the squeeze on for cash? How freakin’ screwed up.

Enough Violence. Enough Revenge. Stop the War.
Hmmmmm. Who was that sign talking to?

A Conversation with Dallas Willard, mostly about evangelism. I respect Willard, though I’ve found his work increasingly hard to understand. (It’s probably me. Calvinism clouding my mind, etc. :-)

Faith in the living Christ raises us above merely being delivered from the consequences of sin. We need a doctrine not only of justification but of regeneration. We need a picture of our life in God that does not leave most of our life untouched. What has happened today is that we’ve reduced salvation to justification. We’ve reduced the saving work of Christ to his death on the cross. So what relevance has the resurrected Christ? None! Apparently, we would have gone to heaven even if Christ had never risen from the dead, because the payment was made in full on the cross. At that point, we would have all gone to heaven because God could not have found anything against us; it would have all been forgiven. Nothing else would have been available to us to make us ready for heaven, so that we would be comfortable when we get there! I shudder when I think of many people who are professing Christians today winding up in heaven; I don’t know what’s going to happen to them. I think they could not be very happy in heaven if they have not gotten acclimated here.

Colin Powell (via Josh Claybourne): Is the U.S. the “Great Satan?”

“So, far from being the Great Satan, I would say that we are the Great Protector. We have sent men and women from the armed forces of the United States to other parts of the world throughout the past century to put down oppression. We defeated Fascism. We defeated Communism. We saved Europe in World War I and World War II. We were willing to do it, glad to do it. We went to Korea. We went to Vietnam. All in the interest of preserving the rights of people.

“And when all those conflicts were over, what did we do? Did we stay and conquer? Did we say ‘Okay, we defeated Germany. Now Germany belongs to us? We defeated Japan, so Japan belongs to us?’ No. What did we do? We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which they have embraced totally to their soul. And did we ask for any land? No, the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are. So, far from being the Satan, I think we are the protector of a universal value system that more and more people are recognizing as the correct value system: democracy, economic freedom, the individual rights of men and women to pursue their own destiny. That’s what we stand for, and that’s what we try to help other countries achieve as well.”

A good photo of the new World War II Memorial.

This CNN piece on the shocking truth about minority graduation says everything except the obvious: Affirmative action is a flop, because these students fast tracked in don’t graduate. My favorite line is this: Professors really need to call students in the dorm and wake them up so they can get to class. Give me a break.

Russell (on Family Stuff): My grandmother is the mother of my mother and her brother. My aunt is his wife.

For the record: I’ve hidden for a couple of days, and will continue to do so – probably through the weekend. I’m exhausted, and plan to take out my exhaustion by rooting for the visiting team in a baseball game I’m going to tomorrow. Grandmother’s still ticked. Mom’s standing her ground. Aunt’s still begging for cash that won’t come until she decides to get a job. Lazy broad.

Del McCoury Band: Bluegrass from Heaven… But then again, isn’t all bluegrass from heaven?

I have come back from my baseball trip in about the foulest state of doubt about the Christian faith that I can ever recall. The poor wife. She blames Capon, but he’s innocent. She needs your prayers when I get like this. I really am a mess when I meditate on that fact that everything in the universe is dead, and has been, for 15 billion years, except for this tiny thread of life that ripples along- inexplicably- in the universe, and I ride that wave for 80 years (maybe) and tell myself that it’s good God created me and didn’t throw me into hell or torture me, so now I’m going to believe in him, be a good boy and pretend that I won’t die but will really enjoy singing endless worship choruses in “heaven.” Of course, the hilarious thing about the “no God/no meaning” position is you don’t get to find out that you were right! In the meantime, Freud’s view of religion as wishful thinking to keep from killing ourselves every morning makes a lot of sense.

So rather than think about this, I’m going to write a sermon on Pentecost and contemplate if I could stick to an 800 calorie per day diet. If it weren’t for Gordon Lightfoot, I would be intolerable.

OK. Now I’m done with that….

Critique is a publication by Ransom Fellowship. I’m real impressed. Download to Adobe and check out the sample issue. These are our kind of folks. I’m stealing some of this stuff on doubt. This is great:

“Have you ever felt intellectually embarrassed to admit that you were a Christian?

“Do you ever feel somewhat schizophrenic about the relationship of your faith to the rest of your life? Do you find yourself compartmentalizing different aspects so that tensions between them are minimized?

“If given a chance between sharing an island with Jerry Falwell and Dove Music Award winner Steve Green on the one hand, or with Jerry Seinfeld and Grammy Award winner Santana on the other, does one upset your stomach less than the other?

“Do you ever think, ‘Those close to me would be shocked if they knew some of the doubts I have about my faith?’ Do you ever scare even yourself with your doubts?

“Have you sometimes felt like walking out of a church service because it seemed contrived and empty?

“How often do you find yourself at odds with your surroundings—intellectually, socially, spiritually? Is there part of you which feels out of place no matter where you are?

BlogBasics is exactly what it says: a blog dedicated to the new blogger. (IOW, it’s the site Jim should have developed to make his next million.) Worth bookmarking and passing along.

Wired Magazine takes a look at MLB.com, one incredible web operation that shows what making full use of web technology can do. At MLB.com you can watch and/or listen to every game, get all the stats possible, network with other fans, enjoy special radio and TV programming just for the fan, listen to/watch archived games and so on. It’s quite a big deal for a fan like me….except it doesn’t work 100% with Linux :) but close enough.

Found this little gem on a Bluegrass Gospel performance by Del McCoury. It’s a Buddy Greene lyric. To the point. We probably won’t be singing it at church anytime soon :) It’s too true.

I’m a pharisee in recovery
With new eyes I can see a big sinner in me
But it’s the way of my human heart
To confess other people’s sin,
Reluctant to admit my part or the deeper problem within.
But, thank God, He won’t let me be, or remain in my hypocrisy
Sooner or later I’ll be on my knees
honest to God a recovering Pharisee

I’m a sinner and a saint simultaneously
I’m not what I was or what I’m goin’ to be
Still I’ve got that ol’ tendency to be all a wicked man can be
It takes more than knowin’ right from wrong
It takes more than singin’ gospel songs
It takes the life of the Great I Am to produce any good in me
He’s the Vine I’m the branch and I’m learnin’ to be
Honest to God, a recovering Pharisee

I need the God of all grace each and every day
If I’m to run his race if I’m to walk in His way
I don’t have to be a slave to sin I don’t have to let the devil win
Cause the Son of God lives in me and He promises to set me free
So, Jesus, help my unbelief so I can follow you faithfully
You’re the Shepherd I’m the sheep and you’re helpin’ me be
Honest to God, a recovering Pharisee

We did PDL all the way through, although we took longer than 40 days to do it (we did it over 4 months.) It was great, a real spiritual breakthrough for me, especially the “special” kool-aid we all got at the end, just before the part where we all took out our checkbooks and signed all our assets over to Rick Warren. I’m sure he’s putting our money to good use. Gotta run, time to get back to the airport for more singing and tambourine shaking. Now where did I leave my white robe and beads?

Detoxing is like me in the ‘90’s and 00’s, IOW still going on.

There’ll be no way of knowing if there’s anything after modernism (or what it looks like) for a couple of centuries or so down the road.

The canoe and the forest calls…I’ll catch up on Tuesday. Please pray for us for some very difficult but very growth-causing transitions we’re going through. I’ll be praying for you all while swinging my fly-rod around…

The Thought Police are coming.

PoMo Youth Ministry? Tony Jones says he stopped doing Bible studies and starting hooking up with Biblical narratives in whatever creative ways he could. He posits sort of a “this way or the old, bad way” situation, but I don’t know if I buy it. If my GOAL is to plug into the narrative, then I think these sorts of creative approaches are great, and I’ve done them in class and in youth groups for a long time. Again, I wonder if the advocates of pomo are really up to a paradigm shirft, or just making way too much of their discovery of what lots of people knew and practiced for years. (Ever hear of Serendipity, Tony? Or even the “Creative Communication” section of the YS IDEAS books? You ain’t such a hot, new thing :)

That Detoxing from the church article sounds like me in the 70’s and 80’s. Ask anyone who knew me. Working on church staff where every spiritual need or command was taken care of by the omnipresent church program, I ranted about these very things. Detoxing from church makes a lot of sense to me. I absolutely believe church particularly the FBC and/or supermegachurch model- is an addiction for a lot of people. All that said, I don’t agree with everything in the article. He sees a problem, and puts some answers on the problem, but there are problems with his answers. Still, I appreciate the word. Detox is right. I’m still working on it. Full time ministry is not good for me.

Pope forgetting to return from the wayback machine before commenting. Little late dude.

....

Dave: Normally at a time like this I’d ask you for advice, and you’d say something that would make no sense at all, but somehow it would all fit together. Like, I would tell you, “Sir, I have a problem,” and you’d say, “Well, what is it?” and I’d say, “Well, sir, Lisa wants to have a baby, but she doesn’t want to get married,” and you’d say “Dave, why milk the cow when you have a fridge full of steaks?” And I’d say, “Sir, that makes no sense,” and you’d say, “Well, it sure made sense when that guy Chuck Connors said it in that movie Chinatown,” and I’d say, “Sir, Chuck Connors wasn’t in Chinatown,” and you’d say, “Dave, if I wanted to have this conversation I’d have hired that guy Siskel Ebert to do your job,” and I’d say, “Sir, Siskel and Ebert are two people,” and you’d say, “Dave, just because the man is fat is no reason to make fun of him.”

Man, I miss that show.

Danny: Nice one about Babel/PDL, are you PoMo?

Plans: It’s getting a bit warm here, it broke into the seventies this week, so we’re heading up north where it’s cooler. We’re taking the canoe, some camping gear and the camera.

PDL: I’m not a systematic reviewer of anything, I read PDL and found it a bore. Many people I know have really bought into it, one friend has committed deeply to following it for the whole forty, doing nothing else during that time. Lot’s of banners have hung on various churches around here declaring “40 days of Purpose!”.

There’s a bunch of other stuff circulating about that’s pretty much like this; “The Grace Walk”, some “Lighthouse” thing; “Jabez” was a biggie and so’s that guy’s next book; remember “March for Jesus”, “Promise Keepers”, and “Prayer Walking” (that one didn’t survive through winter)? There’s also what I call the “I’m not a pastor I’m a CEO and I’m going to run this place like a business” syndrome, I refer to it as the “What’s our mission statement?” phase. Usually the elders and deacons (who are of course successful business men) really love this one.

My conviction is that it’s all well meaning attempts to build hype and commitment in people that don’t really give a rip about following Jesus. I’m sick of it. As they say in Minnesota, “it’s ishy”.

Russell: I read that article that Danny linked to on your blog that linked to The Ooze, are ya’ PoMo? Don’t answer that. It was very deconstructionist, I liked it. Interesting statement; “In order to BE the Church, we need to leave the church”. I remember NEO (the one in Brian McLaren’s book “A New Kind of Christian”, not the one in the Matrix) saying that he thought that the postmodern movement would find more “traction” in “mainline/traditional” churches rather than in “seeker sensitive” churches. He (NEO) felt that the “seeker sensitive” churches already felt as though they knew the formula for “success”.

Just ask Rick Warren.

Weekend Plans:

We are hosting a LOTR birthday party for my nine year-old nephew, complete with 25 children in full costume (real bows, a replica of Sting, crossbows, standards, Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Aragon, Eorewyn, Eowyn, Galadriel, the Elephant driver, Easterlings…) Today, my sil and I are baking a two tiered “Bilbo” cake after we take a dozen kids on an excursion to the lakeshore (were 1/2 mile from Lake Michigan).

Tonight, I am doing all things possible to track down our sitter and get out with my husband :). Sunday, I’m going to mass then heading to B&N to try and check out Hahn’s new book on the sacraments.

Monday… who knows, it generally rains and is 45 in Wisconsin on Memorial Day. My brother and his wife will most likely be moving, six weeks and a return to house full of a mere five children will be a piece of cake!

Name, Purpose, and a large community with a “purpose” led to the Tower of Babel.

They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” – Genesis 11:4

Russell’s Rant on Purpose Driven Life

The Reason Christianity has become Purpose Driven

Some KJVO’s PDL Summation

Tin-Foil Hatter’s PDL Observations

I have been reluctant to bring this matter to the tavern. But here goes.

Has anyone gone through the 40 Days of Purpose in their respective churches? I believe Jim N. has posted previously about teaching the PDL book in S.S., but not sure if they did 40 Days.

My pastor is gung-ho about this, and it appears that when it is mentioned at church, that several folks have already read the book or are currently reading it.

We also had “revival” services last week that centered around the 5 purposes. The “evangelist” spoke Sun-Wed and never delivered a Christ centered message. The focus of each message was PDL right down the line. I am not sure what I need to say to my pastor, if anything. His plan is to take us through the 40 Days this fall.

Russell: Thank God—I fear for the future for my children if Kerry does pull out of Iraq prematurely. I hope you’re right, just in case he wins.

John Kerry, Mr. Waffles, isn’t going to deliver any change to U.S. foreign policy. This is reminicent of the Vietnam era. A Republican, Eisenhower, got us into Nam, and Democrats promised to get us out for years, using it as a campaigning tool and never delivering, until finally Richard Nixon, a Republican, actually got U.S. out. I’m inclined to vote for Ralph Nader, at least he runs on principle, rather than politics.

I’m not posting much because I’m busy doing all the things that need doing around the house, spending time my family, and beginning a non-frantic decision process to determine how we’re going to eat and pay the mortgage going forward.

My weekend plans include:

• playing Legos with my kids if it rains.
• working on the basement some more.
• building a cart for my miter saw.
• completing the move of XMLHead from MT to blosxom.

Two prayer request updates: My friend in Russia is facing a major set-back, in that he may be forced to return to the US without his son and then have to go back to get the boy later in June. Please pray that things will come together. Also, I may have an opportunity to do some work as a consultant that’s directly related to both my blogging tech experience and my better days at work; I’ll know more about that by the end of next week.

For the record, I’ve given up on trying to rectify what I experience with respect to women in ministry with Paul’s writings for the moment. Until I see the willingness to serve in myself that I see in some of the women elders, deacons and ministers in my circle, I figure I’m not qualified to pass judgment.

Hmph, should have refreshed before posting, I guess.

Russell: It’s a shame, and I’d feel sad for your friend. But she’s her own person, and she can make her own choices, you know?

Danny: My weekend plans involve a trip to the lake before it gets too busy, a showing of A Day Without A Mexican, a visit to a club where a friend’s band is playing, a visit to another club which is having a big party on Sunday night, no yardwork whatsoever (finished it yesterday), and um, I don’t know. Someone has to work on Monday, so my life is at loose ends right now.

Prayer Request: I don’t think it has been mentioned here, but our very own Amanda Nordstrom is leaving/has left today for a one-week missions trip to Mexico. While there she (and others from her church) will be working with local missionaries, lending them a hand. Please pray for safety, effectiveness, etc, etc.

Hello? Is this thing on?

Let’s see: Women in church leadership, women earning college degrees, family soap operas, the Mossad, how liturgy rocks and Danny needs to get a grip—with so many conversations, why aren’t people conversing?

Russel: As a YEC what is there to explain? A planet (supposedly) formed. Nothing impossible or unknown.

Purposed QotD: Weekend plans?
I, for one, will probably have the best ribs via motorcycle ride to a small town of 300 or so, cruise down the river with a cousin, play video games, work on my sermon and class x2 and figure somehow to drink some wine/beer.

On the college debate its funny this would come up as I have a friend who just found out that her native american heritage gives her the opportunity to go to college without paying for it. She has 4 children ages 7 on down, and homeschools the school aged ones. This woman is intelligent and would really excel in a college environment, and it seems to me this would benefit their family in huge ways.

However….

Even though she’s always wanted to go to school, she seems to be pooh poohing this opportunity because of her fundamentalist family structure. How would any of yous guys deal with a person like this?

How do the YEC’s handle this shizzle?

Alex, I’ve been all over the map on the Women in Church Leadership issue. I’m technically a member of the Foursquare denom. which has a viewpoint that I find Scripturally difficult to defend. But it’s not something to fight about.

Wretched urgency alert, big-time.

Anyway, I remember having this conversation about women in the Church a long time ago, when I first started posting here. Anyway, I’ve undergone somewhat a shift in my view, partially due to my expanding knowledge of women’s roles in the early church.

We have John Chrysostom, for instance, commending Junia in Romans 16:7 – “how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.”

There is also archaelogical evidence that suggests that women were elders and deacons in the early church (i.e., gravestone epitaphs and memorials labeling the remains inside as belonging to some woman elder or woman deacon).

Nonetheless, I still haven’t read an exegesis of Paul that really makes sense to me. The hermeneutic that radically relativizes the text proves to much, since the same argument could be used in the homosexual controversy embroiling the church now.

DP: Best conversation you’ve had with a catcher at the plate.
LB: Benito Santiago is pretty accommodating to conversations. A lot of catchers don’t like to talk; they’re really focused and concentrating, but he’ll talk to you. At least you can hold a conversation with him.
DP: Give me an idea. You step in the box and how does the conversation go?
LB: Well, it just depends on how the game’s going. If it’s a tight game, late in the game and it’s a serious situation, you might not say anything. But early in the game, after a particularly nasty pitch, you might say, “Damn, that was a pretty good pitch there” (or something like that). I mean, we’re not discussing Calvinism versus Arminianism or anything like that. Just trying to keep some light banter going.

I saw the Rivercats play last night, we left at the top of the 8th. They were down 6-4 and my father and I were tired plus they already made 3 errors with a pathetic display from the SS. We went home and on the way back they, during the bottom of the 8th, they scored 4 runs. Sigh.

Russel: I’ll attempt keep my crappy rantings confined to my experiences. :) If the man of the family isn’t, then the problems of the family will only be complicated.

Family Tree: Scott, how can your aunt’s mom and your grandmother be different people? Or is she a paternal aunt, and her mother being your paternal grandmother?

My cousin robbed my grandmother for 25 years before the power of attorney kicked in on account of alzheimers.

I’m freakin’ bored with the evangelical liturgy: Sing, clap, listen to someone talk, gossip, go out to eat, leave small tip, or better yet a tract.

On Women: Has anyone read Proverbs 31 lately? Businesswoman, career woman, employer, real estate baron…

Jim, I know – the Mossad kick a$$. They kick everyone’s a$$, not just the PLO. Real Life movie heros. Regardless of the morality of their tactics, they are the best.

Danny, hate to break it to you, but sometimes the mans tenacity isn’t all that’s required in maintaining a family that loves the Lord. I used to say stuff like that, then the crap hit the fan. Now I think its more of Jesus’ responsibility to do whatever the heck He wants with whoever He wants.

I’m with Scott. Because it’s “biblical” (haha), I agree with A-E but E if defined in spiritual matters. Damn right a man better have some brass when it comes to teaching his wife/children about Christ and maintaining a family that loves our Lord.

I hope my wife will handle the finances as I can’t balance squat. :-/

I’ve watched families nearly destroy themselves because of some silly idea that women should not handle the family finances because that undermines her husband’s authority. Never mind whether or not the guy can add and subtract!

Men can get torn up if their women out-earn them. Me, I’d be ecstatic! Woohoo! She can earn, I’m quitting!

Anyway, the original clown was stating that women should not go to college, which is one of the worst I’ve heard. Presumably he’s planning to take on his brother’s wives as sister-wives to his own if one of his brothers dies, since that was the custom (and command) at the time of the passages he’s fond of misquoting.

Since it’s a homeschool debate forum, I want to ask why a woman shouldn’t go to school if for no other reason than to prepare for homeschooling her own children!

Wait Scott!!
I disagree with your WHOLE LIST!!
And I’m NEVER WRONG!!!
What now?????
:-)

I’ll say this much on my way out the door for the weekend:

Ok – I’m a little old-fashioned. I do believe that there are certain things that women shouldn’t do. Such as:

a. Serve as an elder in a church
b. Serve as a deacon in a church
c. Serve as the pastor of a church
d. Teach men in a church.
e. Act as the head of her family.

Yeah, it’s that darned I Timothy 2-3 and Ephesians 5 thing again… But notice how I worded it. I said “shouldn’t”. Not “couldn’t”. I think women are perfectly capable of being normal adults, able to live free and happy lives of working regular jobs, managing family finances, and maybe one day leading our nation. That’s fine. Anyone who says women “can’t” do these things have never known women.

Nope. I believe these things based on something that I think I’ve addressed before in the tavern. I believe that the above list isn’t because of the abilities given to men. I believe that the list exists because they are responsibilities given to men by God. Yeah, I know there are people who disagree with me, and I assure you – they’re all wrong.

I was raised very differently from what I’m about to say, but I believe that virtually every restriction I’ve ever heard placed on what a woman “can” and “can’t” do (in terms of comparison to men) requires twisting and/or ignoring portions of Scripture, and in my experience, it is based more on tradition and chauvinism and insecurity than anything else.

I didn’t say the Liturgy was “bad”. I just don’t like it. Granted that doesn’t go into detail. I don’t like challenge-response, which I had to do this last week, it suggests an obligation toward a particular avenue of worship which I don’t, forgive me for saying, don’t enjoy. Am I suppose to enjoy worship? You bet! He is the source of my life and daily living. I live worship. I don’t live by a schedule. My Outlook calendar is more of my record keeping than an early warning system.

Maybe I am being detox’ed. :)

There is more content in liturgy but the delivery, to me, is deplorable.

Now being single, never married, with zero children, I’ll stay out of the other discussion lest I eat my feet.

I asked a question over on my blog that I’d be interested in getting some feedback from some of you guys and gals on (thanks to Matthew, my main patron, who’s already weighed in on this): I found out someone else’s blog already has the name As I Lay Blogging :-( This person’s is a primarily Faulkner-related blog, and he/she hasn’t posted on it since OCT 03. So do I change mine now? Is it rude to keep the title anyway? Or worse, is it lame? What think ye fellows?

Please pray for my family (ScottW1, I think we may be related): My brother just scored his fourth felony! Always the overachiever, that one! And here he’s only been out of prison four months. If only I had such ambition…
Seriously, the main thing to pray is that he is put somewhere away from society for a looong time. He needs help, but since that doesn’t seem likely, prison will do just fine.

If you’re a husband and/or father, and you actually believe that there’s no point in education your daughters, and you forbid your wife to work outside the home under any conditions, please note the following: I consider you an abusive husband. Your wife and children should leave you for their own protection until you get help with this. If I know you, and you take this view, be aware that I will counsel your wife to take your children and leave you, and I will help them escape using whatever resources I can.

Having said that, I believe that a husband has an obligation to provide for his family in such a way that their livelihood isn’t dependent on his wife’s income. In other words, if your wife feels called to stay home and care for your children, pets, livestock, and landscaping, then as her husband you should go find something to do that makes up for the “loss of income.” I know that phrase is loaded, but here in the NYC area, it’s very difficult to live comfortably on one income. Out in the sticks, your mileage may vary.

Of course, I don’t hold with any of the restrictions on what women can do with respect to exercising their latent abilities, aptitudes, and (yes, even) spiritual gifts that may people manage to pull out of the bible at random when these topics come up.

On Liturgy: The comparison Kurt and Michael had drawn between “Let’s sing in unison” and “Let’s speak in unison” is even more poignant in my own church, where we recently stopped singing certain bits and recite them together instead. These days, almost nobody remembers the old tunes and few people can read music.

I suppose it’s a step backwards, eh, Danny? I mean, singing in unison good, speaking in unison bad. Right?

TESM is a good place that turns out good people. In an article in a recent magazine issue, Peter Moore recalls a debate between Marcus Borg and Tom Wright in which Borg rejected the idea that Jesus is the only way to God. It’s a fascinating discussion about defining orthodoxy.

It’s hard to believe that some of these clowns are part of the same wing of the church that I am. Things like that sometimes make me think a new American Anglican denomination looks appealing. Sigh.

Just thought I would check in. I’m hanging out at the SBTS library while the boys see Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Then it’s back to the ball park. Tuesday we saw a great Reds game in the pouring rain. Last night in Louisville we saw four innings of a make up game and four innings of a rain shortened game. Forecast tonight is more thunderstorms. Weather has been bad in the evenings, but we’ve still done everything we wanted to do. The Louisville Slugger Museum/factory tour today was cool.

The discussion of freedom and liturgy would have a poor effect on me, so I’m glad I missed them. All I can say is that those of you who choose the Liturgy of Whatever Brother Billy Bob thinks we ought to do next are surely impoverished. And what’s weirder about pray now/pray this than sing now/sing this or listen now/listen to this? Duh.

I wrote about this once.

Saying women should never work is enshrining the culture of the ancient middle east as the 67th book of the Bible. Don’t do that, unless you actually own slaves ;-) (oh Jaa-aaack).

Kurt: Indeed, I’m so proud!

One thing I suggested that didn’t make it into the big post was that I’m not interested in hearing from men who aren’t educating their children morning, noon, and night as Deuteronomy 6 commands them to do.

It is a profound regret in my life that my wife never went to college. At one point a few years back, it might have saved my marriage, but despite that, I wish that she had earned one already. It handicapped her for years, though now I suggest that she could probably match wits with the best and brightest. Still, had she earned her degree, she could move more easily into the field of her choice after our youngest child graduates, whereas now she’ll be held back for a few more years unless she is able to accomplish most of the coursework via distance learning. My mom earned a degree at home, and another of my brothers finished the last two years of his that way, too.

I agree whole-heartedly with Kurt that men are held responsible for the success or failure of their families, and that women have responsibilities in that vein as well. But to confuse that with some sort of bizarre idea about how exactly men and women are supposed to accomplish that, well, I just don’t see Scriptural support for it.

If my wife writes best-selling children’s books, I’ll happily retire and stay home to teach the kids while she travels around doing publicity stuff. If her current interest in living the simple life pans out and we strip our expenses down to a level that can easily be paid for by piano lessons and part-time scutwork, then I’ll be happy with that. Well, as happy as a man can be without HBO, at least. If, as is the case with several friends of mine, she could out-earn me in the workforce and was willing to do so, I’d happily quit and take over the upkeep of the house and kids. This is forbidden in Scripture where?

It is one thing to decry a societal force which argues that children should always be bundled off as infants so that mommy and daddy can both pursue a career. In many cases that is a bad deal for everybody. (Sorry in advance for ruffled feathers.) But it is an entirely different thing to argue that women should never work. That’s not only unsupported by Scripture, it’s counter to Scripture based on my reading.

Welcome to the evangelical ghetto!

Russell: I’ll take a break from my normal curmudgeon work to point out that one of the ways that Mossad agents “collect information” is torturing and beating the crap out of just about any Palestinian taken into custody by Israelis. I’m sure they have a bible verse for that, too, though.

First off, I would like to point out that Titus 5:8 actually doesn’t exist, which makes interpreting scripture according to its context pretty difficult.

Yeah, that guy is definitely PWinn’s kin.

On the topic, I do not see any Biblical argument that women have no place outside of the home. I view the situation as more a heirarchy of values, as opposed to dictation of dos and do-nots.

I would say that Biblically, the husband is responsible for leading his family, and ultimately seeing to it that his family is cared for, protected, and provided for. (This is not to say he has to be the sole “breadwinner”, or even command the higher salary…but if the family goes hungry, I believe God will hold the man responsible) The wife, Biblically, is responsible for supporting her husband’s leadership and co-laboring with him.

I think that what this dynamic turns out to be has to vary from family to family. Provided that the stability of the house is maintained, the care of the children is not neglected, and the leadership of the husband not subverted, I cannot see why a woman would be forbidden to engage in out-of-home activities.

New topic, because there just isn’t enough acrimony around here and Danny’s rebellion against God-ordained liturgy is boring.

A brother of mine is engaging in debate on another forum about “the proper role of Christian women,” specifically with regard to work and school. Leaving aside for the moment the delicious irony of teenagers and barely-twenty-somethings discussing an issue to which they clearly have little or no practical exposure, I find the debate fascinating. My reaction to it surprises me.

See, my wife has never held a job other than a few months as a volunteer for a TV evangelist (for which she received a “clothing allowance” that worked to roughly minimum wage). She has no education beyond high school and stays at home and homeschools our kids. In theory, based on observation of my household, one might reasonably infer that I’m strongly in favor of the “women stay home, men provide” side of the discussion. But I’m not. In fact, after the first post, some of the other posts from graham-cracker (aka Caleb, my bro) have had some assistance from me.

In fact, I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, there are still people who believe that the only proper role for a Christian woman is as a homemaker. That is certainly one wonderful role, but the only acceptable one? Hardly.

Am I too worldly on this issue, or are the people advocating keeping all women barefoot and pregnant trying to twist Scripture to support their misogynistic views?

Scott: I empathize, my family seems similar though with fewer players. We had a time of cleaning for my grandmother much like you described with yours, it’s heart wrenching.

I have an will continue to pray.

There is a quote from Sir Winston S. Churchill that I’ve found quite comforting and often repeat to myself:

“Biology is not Destiny”

A good friend of mine has been attempting to adopt a 7-year-old Russian boy, a long process that’s gone at least a year at this point. He and his wife are currently in Kurgan (in Siberia,) where they are working through the court process to formally complete the adoption. They had a hearing on Wednesday (late Tuesday night, our time) where they expected to have a 10-day “waiting” period waived reduced and receive the go-ahead to finalize the adoption process; instead, they were hit with a delay that will probably require that they stay over there for at least 20 days.

Please pray for patience for them, and also pray that the way will be made straight for the adoption to proceed. They are a long way from home, and my friend’s business back here in the US was already in trouble before they left. This is a real test for them.

I’m not against liturgy, I agree that the Psalms are liturgical prayers and songs, I love the connection I feel with the church triumphant while engaged in ancient liturgical practices.

I agree that corporate worship needs structure; and that in the absence of structure that what some may describe as spontinaity often become fleshly expression and attention-getting. I’ve a friend who while pastoring in the AG denomination said that the emphasis was on the pastoral candidate “with the juice”. I’ve been around the evangelical circus long enough to appreciate how much “success” has come to depend on the man standing in front of the “audience”. Grrrr!

But I’ve also been exposed to Orthodoxy, which is at the other end of the spectrum (at least as far as liturgy goes). In fact in Orthodoxy liturgy is called “Holy Liturgy”; and I believe that though not stated as such, liturgical practices become de-facto “Holy” in other denoms as well. I become concerned that when practitioners of a specific liturgy begin to view it as “Holy” that the focus becomes the form rather than the substance.

Yes, it’s scriptural, but when a practitioner hears a verse of scripture and says (I’ve had this happen); “wow, I hear that at church every week, but I didn’t know it was in the Bible!”, something’s backwards. Jim talks about the (my paraphrase) “magic book syndrome”, I believe that there’s also a “magic liturgy syndrome”.

Idiot Cousin/Family Update #2: Grrrrr…

Ok… I’ve got a few minutes to go through this. Please keep my family in your prayers.

First, the players:

My mom (S)
My grandmother®
My aunt (D)
My aunt’s mom (D2)
My cousin (J)
Me
My Wife (A)

Saturday morning, A and me went to visit my grandmother and to refill her pills (she’s in the beginning stages of Alzheimer’s). When I came in, her house was an absolute wreck. Disgusting smells coming from under things. A remarked to me that she was afraid of what would happen if social services visited.

Saturday night, J disappeared with my grandmother’s car. Friends last saw her Saturday night at 12:30AM. She was supposed to be with them at 3AM, but never showed. By Monday, mom (S) got involved and went to my grandmother’s home. She discovered what we found on Saturday morning and began cleaning. By the time she was done, besides the normal rotted food, dirt, and dust, she had also thrown out a half gallon bucket of cat crap. Ick.

About 4pm Monday, J’s mom D called, asking to borrow $200 from my grandmother (neither D or grandmother work – grandmother’s 83 and D is a lazy twit). My mom found out and called D back and told her the bad news: there wasn’t any money to loan her. Thinking the matter was settled, mom and grandmother headed out for supper. When they returned, grandmother went in the house, and mom went home. Mom started calling people trying to find J.

In the meantime, D calls up grandmother. J has been found and is at there house. Oh – and where, oh, where is the money she asked for, since even though she was told there was none, D and D’s mom (D2) showed up to collect it.

Grrrr….

Flash forward to Wednesday. Grandmother gives D the cash. Mom reminds grandmother that the cash isn’t there… especially if she wants to do things like eat, have electricity, and put gas in the car that J drives around to pick up drugs and guys with. Mom (who has power of attorney) starts thinking and checking numbers… her “evil-o-meter” is going off, and let me tell you: when mom’s evil-o-meter is going off, you’d better pay attention. It’s scary how often she’s right. I really think that God tells her – but that’s another story.

Mom runs down to the bank and checks into grandmother’s accounts. Discovers that between October 2003 and April 2004, over $6,000 has gone missing from a woman whose mind isn’t in the best of conditions. Mom goes off. Moves the remaining cash over to an account that only she can access and leaves enough in grandmother’s account for groceries, etc. Tells grandmother that if she wants money, she can have it, but as far as J and D and D2 are concerned, “the well has run dry”. At least until we can establish where the 6 grand went.

Grandmother is, understandably, furious. At first she feels like mom’s stealing her stash – until yours truly intervenes to explain that mom’s just putting it somewhere safe so it can be managed better – and so that the people who are REALLY stealing her stash can’t steal it anymore.

At this moment, here’s the status of all concerned:

Grandmother: upset that she doesn’t have full control of her dwindling finances, but understanding that mom’s trying to help.

Mom: upset that grandmother’s upset, but confident that she’s doing the right thing. Wants to hear the Lord say “Well Done”. Don’t laugh, Bill – He’s done it before.

D and D2: upset that they won’t be receiving their regular $1,000 monthly payment.

J: thinks everyone sucks but her. Busy having lots of sex and doing lots of drugs and complaining about how much everyone hates her because they tell her to get her life together.

Me and Wife: Stressed to the gills because of all the stupidity I’m related to… Frankly, after hearing both sides of the story, we both agree that Mom is, frankly, right. J and D and D2 are being abusive towards my grandmother, and if my mom hadn’t stood in the gap, and I had known about it, I’d be on the receiving end of the poopstorm mom’s getting.

All this to say, we really, really need your prayers.

One of the top 5 dream jobs: Mossad Agent.

About Us

The Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations, otherwise known as ‘Mossad’ has been appointed by the State of Israel to collect information, analyze intelligence and perform special covert operations beyond its borders.

“Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety”
Proverbs XI/14.

What other World Power’s intelligence agency has a Bible verse for its reason of existance? That has got to be the coolest thing all day.

Being somewhat exposed to liturgy I have grown to dislike it. Being told when and how to pray kinda goes against John 4:23 (in my mind)

I like the freedom of the “free form”(non-liturgical) (not so much as to have flags waving – that’s a little too much). The commands given by the minister do not seem any different than forced-fed religion. I suppose I want my profession of faith to come from my heart and not a script. Be it sitting, kneeling, standing, arms waving/pumping, chewing gum, air drumming, etc.

Although hanging with the kids I have had to tell them “you’re not singing” while they fool w/ their gameboy/secret notes. Flame on! /jn

Thing is, I love structure and order. I don’t get it.

Danny: Go to this page and check ou the PDF files for “Daily Morning Prayer” and “Daily Evening Prayer” and tell me—do non-liturgical churches have this much Scripture and prayer in their services?

I’m sure some do, somewhere, but I have never seen it. I’ve been in lots of churches that were quite proud of their focus on prayer (since God’s house should be called a house of prayer, after all), or on Scripture, but none of them matched the Anglican BCP for sheer quantity or for richness and depth of theology. Other liturgies are better or worse, but they all tend to have a heavy emphasis on Scripture and on prayer. Which, by definition, is uber-spiritual. :-)

You guys are smarter than me, so let me know what you think of this. Geneva doesn’t cover terrorists.

By the way, Paste Music’s net radio station is quite possibly the best thing in the world.

Speaking of Jeopardy, I love the gameshow. I’m really good at it, mainly because for about 3 months all my wife and I did was sit in our cool-in-the-summer basement room and play Jeopardy on Playstation, a couple years ago. She would usually win because I wager erradically, but the relgious topics were always just a question of who pushed the button faster. “New Testament for $1000 Alex.” The questions were obvious to anyone who has read the Bible or attended a Bible Study for more than one week.

Danny, so he’s being charged separately for murdering 8 people in federal court, and 161 other people in state court. But it’s still the same incident. Either we have a trial for each and every person he killed to try to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he murdered each and every person, or we hold one trial to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he killed all of ‘em. Common sense would dicatate that if he was NOT GUILTY of murder of the 8, then he’s not guilty of the murder of the 161. He was convicted of manslaughter of the 8, but that’s a different crime.

Danny: “Not the rich white kids driving mommy’s spare SUV.”

We call those suburban punk rockers. They’re mad as hell because they have everything they could ever want and get taken care of like kings. That would piss me off too.

Seriously, why is liturgy so uber-spiritual?

Interesting Barnastat, note the regional and denominational differences.

Living in Oklahoma, I can tell you—Nichols will fry.

I was channel-surfing and buzzing past the local TBN channel, when I heard them playing a worship song in the transition betwe