Hello? Is this thing on?

Let’s see: Women in church leadership, women earning college degrees, family soap operas, the Mossad, how liturgy rocks and Danny needs to get a grip—with so many conversations, why aren’t people conversing?

Russel: As a YEC what is there to explain? A planet (supposedly) formed. Nothing impossible or unknown.

Purposed QotD: Weekend plans?
I, for one, will probably have the best ribs via motorcycle ride to a small town of 300 or so, cruise down the river with a cousin, play video games, work on my sermon and class x2 and figure somehow to drink some wine/beer.

On the college debate its funny this would come up as I have a friend who just found out that her native american heritage gives her the opportunity to go to college without paying for it. She has 4 children ages 7 on down, and homeschools the school aged ones. This woman is intelligent and would really excel in a college environment, and it seems to me this would benefit their family in huge ways.

However….

Even though she’s always wanted to go to school, she seems to be pooh poohing this opportunity because of her fundamentalist family structure. How would any of yous guys deal with a person like this?

How do the YEC’s handle this shizzle?

Alex, I’ve been all over the map on the Women in Church Leadership issue. I’m technically a member of the Foursquare denom. which has a viewpoint that I find Scripturally difficult to defend. But it’s not something to fight about.

Wretched urgency alert, big-time.

Anyway, I remember having this conversation about women in the Church a long time ago, when I first started posting here. Anyway, I’ve undergone somewhat a shift in my view, partially due to my expanding knowledge of women’s roles in the early church.

We have John Chrysostom, for instance, commending Junia in Romans 16:7 – “how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.”

There is also archaelogical evidence that suggests that women were elders and deacons in the early church (i.e., gravestone epitaphs and memorials labeling the remains inside as belonging to some woman elder or woman deacon).

Nonetheless, I still haven’t read an exegesis of Paul that really makes sense to me. The hermeneutic that radically relativizes the text proves to much, since the same argument could be used in the homosexual controversy embroiling the church now.

DP: Best conversation you’ve had with a catcher at the plate.
LB: Benito Santiago is pretty accommodating to conversations. A lot of catchers don’t like to talk; they’re really focused and concentrating, but he’ll talk to you. At least you can hold a conversation with him.
DP: Give me an idea. You step in the box and how does the conversation go?
LB: Well, it just depends on how the game’s going. If it’s a tight game, late in the game and it’s a serious situation, you might not say anything. But early in the game, after a particularly nasty pitch, you might say, “Damn, that was a pretty good pitch there” (or something like that). I mean, we’re not discussing Calvinism versus Arminianism or anything like that. Just trying to keep some light banter going.

I saw the Rivercats play last night, we left at the top of the 8th. They were down 6-4 and my father and I were tired plus they already made 3 errors with a pathetic display from the SS. We went home and on the way back they, during the bottom of the 8th, they scored 4 runs. Sigh.

Russel: I’ll attempt keep my crappy rantings confined to my experiences. :) If the man of the family isn’t, then the problems of the family will only be complicated.

Family Tree: Scott, how can your aunt’s mom and your grandmother be different people? Or is she a paternal aunt, and her mother being your paternal grandmother?

My cousin robbed my grandmother for 25 years before the power of attorney kicked in on account of alzheimers.

I’m freakin’ bored with the evangelical liturgy: Sing, clap, listen to someone talk, gossip, go out to eat, leave small tip, or better yet a tract.

On Women: Has anyone read Proverbs 31 lately? Businesswoman, career woman, employer, real estate baron…

Jim, I know – the Mossad kick a$$. They kick everyone’s a$$, not just the PLO. Real Life movie heros. Regardless of the morality of their tactics, they are the best.

Danny, hate to break it to you, but sometimes the mans tenacity isn’t all that’s required in maintaining a family that loves the Lord. I used to say stuff like that, then the crap hit the fan. Now I think its more of Jesus’ responsibility to do whatever the heck He wants with whoever He wants.

I’m with Scott. Because it’s “biblical” (haha), I agree with A-E but E if defined in spiritual matters. Damn right a man better have some brass when it comes to teaching his wife/children about Christ and maintaining a family that loves our Lord.

I hope my wife will handle the finances as I can’t balance squat. :-/

I’ve watched families nearly destroy themselves because of some silly idea that women should not handle the family finances because that undermines her husband’s authority. Never mind whether or not the guy can add and subtract!

Men can get torn up if their women out-earn them. Me, I’d be ecstatic! Woohoo! She can earn, I’m quitting!

Anyway, the original clown was stating that women should not go to college, which is one of the worst I’ve heard. Presumably he’s planning to take on his brother’s wives as sister-wives to his own if one of his brothers dies, since that was the custom (and command) at the time of the passages he’s fond of misquoting.

Since it’s a homeschool debate forum, I want to ask why a woman shouldn’t go to school if for no other reason than to prepare for homeschooling her own children!

Wait Scott!!
I disagree with your WHOLE LIST!!
And I’m NEVER WRONG!!!
What now?????
:-)

I’ll say this much on my way out the door for the weekend:

Ok – I’m a little old-fashioned. I do believe that there are certain things that women shouldn’t do. Such as:

a. Serve as an elder in a church
b. Serve as a deacon in a church
c. Serve as the pastor of a church
d. Teach men in a church.
e. Act as the head of her family.

Yeah, it’s that darned I Timothy 2-3 and Ephesians 5 thing again… But notice how I worded it. I said “shouldn’t”. Not “couldn’t”. I think women are perfectly capable of being normal adults, able to live free and happy lives of working regular jobs, managing family finances, and maybe one day leading our nation. That’s fine. Anyone who says women “can’t” do these things have never known women.

Nope. I believe these things based on something that I think I’ve addressed before in the tavern. I believe that the above list isn’t because of the abilities given to men. I believe that the list exists because they are responsibilities given to men by God. Yeah, I know there are people who disagree with me, and I assure you – they’re all wrong.

I was raised very differently from what I’m about to say, but I believe that virtually every restriction I’ve ever heard placed on what a woman “can” and “can’t” do (in terms of comparison to men) requires twisting and/or ignoring portions of Scripture, and in my experience, it is based more on tradition and chauvinism and insecurity than anything else.

I didn’t say the Liturgy was “bad”. I just don’t like it. Granted that doesn’t go into detail. I don’t like challenge-response, which I had to do this last week, it suggests an obligation toward a particular avenue of worship which I don’t, forgive me for saying, don’t enjoy. Am I suppose to enjoy worship? You bet! He is the source of my life and daily living. I live worship. I don’t live by a schedule. My Outlook calendar is more of my record keeping than an early warning system.

Maybe I am being detox’ed. :)

There is more content in liturgy but the delivery, to me, is deplorable.

Now being single, never married, with zero children, I’ll stay out of the other discussion lest I eat my feet.

I asked a question over on my blog that I’d be interested in getting some feedback from some of you guys and gals on (thanks to Matthew, my main patron, who’s already weighed in on this): I found out someone else’s blog already has the name As I Lay Blogging :-( This person’s is a primarily Faulkner-related blog, and he/she hasn’t posted on it since OCT 03. So do I change mine now? Is it rude to keep the title anyway? Or worse, is it lame? What think ye fellows?

Please pray for my family (ScottW1, I think we may be related): My brother just scored his fourth felony! Always the overachiever, that one! And here he’s only been out of prison four months. If only I had such ambition…
Seriously, the main thing to pray is that he is put somewhere away from society for a looong time. He needs help, but since that doesn’t seem likely, prison will do just fine.

If you’re a husband and/or father, and you actually believe that there’s no point in education your daughters, and you forbid your wife to work outside the home under any conditions, please note the following: I consider you an abusive husband. Your wife and children should leave you for their own protection until you get help with this. If I know you, and you take this view, be aware that I will counsel your wife to take your children and leave you, and I will help them escape using whatever resources I can.

Having said that, I believe that a husband has an obligation to provide for his family in such a way that their livelihood isn’t dependent on his wife’s income. In other words, if your wife feels called to stay home and care for your children, pets, livestock, and landscaping, then as her husband you should go find something to do that makes up for the “loss of income.” I know that phrase is loaded, but here in the NYC area, it’s very difficult to live comfortably on one income. Out in the sticks, your mileage may vary.

Of course, I don’t hold with any of the restrictions on what women can do with respect to exercising their latent abilities, aptitudes, and (yes, even) spiritual gifts that may people manage to pull out of the bible at random when these topics come up.

On Liturgy: The comparison Kurt and Michael had drawn between “Let’s sing in unison” and “Let’s speak in unison” is even more poignant in my own church, where we recently stopped singing certain bits and recite them together instead. These days, almost nobody remembers the old tunes and few people can read music.

I suppose it’s a step backwards, eh, Danny? I mean, singing in unison good, speaking in unison bad. Right?

TESM is a good place that turns out good people. In an article in a recent magazine issue, Peter Moore recalls a debate between Marcus Borg and Tom Wright in which Borg rejected the idea that Jesus is the only way to God. It’s a fascinating discussion about defining orthodoxy.

It’s hard to believe that some of these clowns are part of the same wing of the church that I am. Things like that sometimes make me think a new American Anglican denomination looks appealing. Sigh.

Just thought I would check in. I’m hanging out at the SBTS library while the boys see Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Then it’s back to the ball park. Tuesday we saw a great Reds game in the pouring rain. Last night in Louisville we saw four innings of a make up game and four innings of a rain shortened game. Forecast tonight is more thunderstorms. Weather has been bad in the evenings, but we’ve still done everything we wanted to do. The Louisville Slugger Museum/factory tour today was cool.

The discussion of freedom and liturgy would have a poor effect on me, so I’m glad I missed them. All I can say is that those of you who choose the Liturgy of Whatever Brother Billy Bob thinks we ought to do next are surely impoverished. And what’s weirder about pray now/pray this than sing now/sing this or listen now/listen to this? Duh.

I wrote about this once.

Saying women should never work is enshrining the culture of the ancient middle east as the 67th book of the Bible. Don’t do that, unless you actually own slaves ;-) (oh Jaa-aaack).

Kurt: Indeed, I’m so proud!

One thing I suggested that didn’t make it into the big post was that I’m not interested in hearing from men who aren’t educating their children morning, noon, and night as Deuteronomy 6 commands them to do.

It is a profound regret in my life that my wife never went to college. At one point a few years back, it might have saved my marriage, but despite that, I wish that she had earned one already. It handicapped her for years, though now I suggest that she could probably match wits with the best and brightest. Still, had she earned her degree, she could move more easily into the field of her choice after our youngest child graduates, whereas now she’ll be held back for a few more years unless she is able to accomplish most of the coursework via distance learning. My mom earned a degree at home, and another of my brothers finished the last two years of his that way, too.

I agree whole-heartedly with Kurt that men are held responsible for the success or failure of their families, and that women have responsibilities in that vein as well. But to confuse that with some sort of bizarre idea about how exactly men and women are supposed to accomplish that, well, I just don’t see Scriptural support for it.

If my wife writes best-selling children’s books, I’ll happily retire and stay home to teach the kids while she travels around doing publicity stuff. If her current interest in living the simple life pans out and we strip our expenses down to a level that can easily be paid for by piano lessons and part-time scutwork, then I’ll be happy with that. Well, as happy as a man can be without HBO, at least. If, as is the case with several friends of mine, she could out-earn me in the workforce and was willing to do so, I’d happily quit and take over the upkeep of the house and kids. This is forbidden in Scripture where?

It is one thing to decry a societal force which argues that children should always be bundled off as infants so that mommy and daddy can both pursue a career. In many cases that is a bad deal for everybody. (Sorry in advance for ruffled feathers.) But it is an entirely different thing to argue that women should never work. That’s not only unsupported by Scripture, it’s counter to Scripture based on my reading.

Welcome to the evangelical ghetto!

Russell: I’ll take a break from my normal curmudgeon work to point out that one of the ways that Mossad agents “collect information” is torturing and beating the crap out of just about any Palestinian taken into custody by Israelis. I’m sure they have a bible verse for that, too, though.

First off, I would like to point out that Titus 5:8 actually doesn’t exist, which makes interpreting scripture according to its context pretty difficult.

Yeah, that guy is definitely PWinn’s kin.

On the topic, I do not see any Biblical argument that women have no place outside of the home. I view the situation as more a heirarchy of values, as opposed to dictation of dos and do-nots.

I would say that Biblically, the husband is responsible for leading his family, and ultimately seeing to it that his family is cared for, protected, and provided for. (This is not to say he has to be the sole “breadwinner”, or even command the higher salary…but if the family goes hungry, I believe God will hold the man responsible) The wife, Biblically, is responsible for supporting her husband’s leadership and co-laboring with him.

I think that what this dynamic turns out to be has to vary from family to family. Provided that the stability of the house is maintained, the care of the children is not neglected, and the leadership of the husband not subverted, I cannot see why a woman would be forbidden to engage in out-of-home activities.

New topic, because there just isn’t enough acrimony around here and Danny’s rebellion against God-ordained liturgy is boring.

A brother of mine is engaging in debate on another forum about “the proper role of Christian women,” specifically with regard to work and school. Leaving aside for the moment the delicious irony of teenagers and barely-twenty-somethings discussing an issue to which they clearly have little or no practical exposure, I find the debate fascinating. My reaction to it surprises me.

See, my wife has never held a job other than a few months as a volunteer for a TV evangelist (for which she received a “clothing allowance” that worked to roughly minimum wage). She has no education beyond high school and stays at home and homeschools our kids. In theory, based on observation of my household, one might reasonably infer that I’m strongly in favor of the “women stay home, men provide” side of the discussion. But I’m not. In fact, after the first post, some of the other posts from graham-cracker (aka Caleb, my bro) have had some assistance from me.

In fact, I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, there are still people who believe that the only proper role for a Christian woman is as a homemaker. That is certainly one wonderful role, but the only acceptable one? Hardly.

Am I too worldly on this issue, or are the people advocating keeping all women barefoot and pregnant trying to twist Scripture to support their misogynistic views?

Scott: I empathize, my family seems similar though with fewer players. We had a time of cleaning for my grandmother much like you described with yours, it’s heart wrenching.

I have an will continue to pray.

There is a quote from Sir Winston S. Churchill that I’ve found quite comforting and often repeat to myself:

“Biology is not Destiny”

A good friend of mine has been attempting to adopt a 7-year-old Russian boy, a long process that’s gone at least a year at this point. He and his wife are currently in Kurgan (in Siberia,) where they are working through the court process to formally complete the adoption. They had a hearing on Wednesday (late Tuesday night, our time) where they expected to have a 10-day “waiting” period waived reduced and receive the go-ahead to finalize the adoption process; instead, they were hit with a delay that will probably require that they stay over there for at least 20 days.

Please pray for patience for them, and also pray that the way will be made straight for the adoption to proceed. They are a long way from home, and my friend’s business back here in the US was already in trouble before they left. This is a real test for them.

I’m not against liturgy, I agree that the Psalms are liturgical prayers and songs, I love the connection I feel with the church triumphant while engaged in ancient liturgical practices.

I agree that corporate worship needs structure; and that in the absence of structure that what some may describe as spontinaity often become fleshly expression and attention-getting. I’ve a friend who while pastoring in the AG denomination said that the emphasis was on the pastoral candidate “with the juice”. I’ve been around the evangelical circus long enough to appreciate how much “success” has come to depend on the man standing in front of the “audience”. Grrrr!

But I’ve also been exposed to Orthodoxy, which is at the other end of the spectrum (at least as far as liturgy goes). In fact in Orthodoxy liturgy is called “Holy Liturgy”; and I believe that though not stated as such, liturgical practices become de-facto “Holy” in other denoms as well. I become concerned that when practitioners of a specific liturgy begin to view it as “Holy” that the focus becomes the form rather than the substance.

Yes, it’s scriptural, but when a practitioner hears a verse of scripture and says (I’ve had this happen); “wow, I hear that at church every week, but I didn’t know it was in the Bible!”, something’s backwards. Jim talks about the (my paraphrase) “magic book syndrome”, I believe that there’s also a “magic liturgy syndrome”.

Idiot Cousin/Family Update #2: Grrrrr…

Ok… I’ve got a few minutes to go through this. Please keep my family in your prayers.

First, the players:

My mom (S)
My grandmother®
My aunt (D)
My aunt’s mom (D2)
My cousin (J)
Me
My Wife (A)

Saturday morning, A and me went to visit my grandmother and to refill her pills (she’s in the beginning stages of Alzheimer’s). When I came in, her house was an absolute wreck. Disgusting smells coming from under things. A remarked to me that she was afraid of what would happen if social services visited.

Saturday night, J disappeared with my grandmother’s car. Friends last saw her Saturday night at 12:30AM. She was supposed to be with them at 3AM, but never showed. By Monday, mom (S) got involved and went to my grandmother’s home. She discovered what we found on Saturday morning and began cleaning. By the time she was done, besides the normal rotted food, dirt, and dust, she had also thrown out a half gallon bucket of cat crap. Ick.

About 4pm Monday, J’s mom D called, asking to borrow $200 from my grandmother (neither D or grandmother work – grandmother’s 83 and D is a lazy twit). My mom found out and called D back and told her the bad news: there wasn’t any money to loan her. Thinking the matter was settled, mom and grandmother headed out for supper. When they returned, grandmother went in the house, and mom went home. Mom started calling people trying to find J.

In the meantime, D calls up grandmother. J has been found and is at there house. Oh – and where, oh, where is the money she asked for, since even though she was told there was none, D and D’s mom (D2) showed up to collect it.

Grrrr….

Flash forward to Wednesday. Grandmother gives D the cash. Mom reminds grandmother that the cash isn’t there… especially if she wants to do things like eat, have electricity, and put gas in the car that J drives around to pick up drugs and guys with. Mom (who has power of attorney) starts thinking and checking numbers… her “evil-o-meter” is going off, and let me tell you: when mom’s evil-o-meter is going off, you’d better pay attention. It’s scary how often she’s right. I really think that God tells her – but that’s another story.

Mom runs down to the bank and checks into grandmother’s accounts. Discovers that between October 2003 and April 2004, over $6,000 has gone missing from a woman whose mind isn’t in the best of conditions. Mom goes off. Moves the remaining cash over to an account that only she can access and leaves enough in grandmother’s account for groceries, etc. Tells grandmother that if she wants money, she can have it, but as far as J and D and D2 are concerned, “the well has run dry”. At least until we can establish where the 6 grand went.

Grandmother is, understandably, furious. At first she feels like mom’s stealing her stash – until yours truly intervenes to explain that mom’s just putting it somewhere safe so it can be managed better – and so that the people who are REALLY stealing her stash can’t steal it anymore.

At this moment, here’s the status of all concerned:

Grandmother: upset that she doesn’t have full control of her dwindling finances, but understanding that mom’s trying to help.

Mom: upset that grandmother’s upset, but confident that she’s doing the right thing. Wants to hear the Lord say “Well Done”. Don’t laugh, Bill – He’s done it before.

D and D2: upset that they won’t be receiving their regular $1,000 monthly payment.

J: thinks everyone sucks but her. Busy having lots of sex and doing lots of drugs and complaining about how much everyone hates her because they tell her to get her life together.

Me and Wife: Stressed to the gills because of all the stupidity I’m related to… Frankly, after hearing both sides of the story, we both agree that Mom is, frankly, right. J and D and D2 are being abusive towards my grandmother, and if my mom hadn’t stood in the gap, and I had known about it, I’d be on the receiving end of the poopstorm mom’s getting.

All this to say, we really, really need your prayers.

One of the top 5 dream jobs: Mossad Agent.

About Us

The Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations, otherwise known as ‘Mossad’ has been appointed by the State of Israel to collect information, analyze intelligence and perform special covert operations beyond its borders.

“Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety”
Proverbs XI/14.

What other World Power’s intelligence agency has a Bible verse for its reason of existance? That has got to be the coolest thing all day.

Being somewhat exposed to liturgy I have grown to dislike it. Being told when and how to pray kinda goes against John 4:23 (in my mind)

I like the freedom of the “free form”(non-liturgical) (not so much as to have flags waving – that’s a little too much). The commands given by the minister do not seem any different than forced-fed religion. I suppose I want my profession of faith to come from my heart and not a script. Be it sitting, kneeling, standing, arms waving/pumping, chewing gum, air drumming, etc.

Although hanging with the kids I have had to tell them “you’re not singing” while they fool w/ their gameboy/secret notes. Flame on! /jn

Thing is, I love structure and order. I don’t get it.

Danny: Go to this page and check ou the PDF files for “Daily Morning Prayer” and “Daily Evening Prayer” and tell me—do non-liturgical churches have this much Scripture and prayer in their services?

I’m sure some do, somewhere, but I have never seen it. I’ve been in lots of churches that were quite proud of their focus on prayer (since God’s house should be called a house of prayer, after all), or on Scripture, but none of them matched the Anglican BCP for sheer quantity or for richness and depth of theology. Other liturgies are better or worse, but they all tend to have a heavy emphasis on Scripture and on prayer. Which, by definition, is uber-spiritual. :-)

You guys are smarter than me, so let me know what you think of this. Geneva doesn’t cover terrorists.

By the way, Paste Music’s net radio station is quite possibly the best thing in the world.

Speaking of Jeopardy, I love the gameshow. I’m really good at it, mainly because for about 3 months all my wife and I did was sit in our cool-in-the-summer basement room and play Jeopardy on Playstation, a couple years ago. She would usually win because I wager erradically, but the relgious topics were always just a question of who pushed the button faster. “New Testament for $1000 Alex.” The questions were obvious to anyone who has read the Bible or attended a Bible Study for more than one week.

Danny, so he’s being charged separately for murdering 8 people in federal court, and 161 other people in state court. But it’s still the same incident. Either we have a trial for each and every person he killed to try to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he murdered each and every person, or we hold one trial to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he killed all of ‘em. Common sense would dicatate that if he was NOT GUILTY of murder of the 8, then he’s not guilty of the murder of the 161. He was convicted of manslaughter of the 8, but that’s a different crime.

Danny: “Not the rich white kids driving mommy’s spare SUV.”

We call those suburban punk rockers. They’re mad as hell because they have everything they could ever want and get taken care of like kings. That would piss me off too.

Seriously, why is liturgy so uber-spiritual?

Interesting Barnastat, note the regional and denominational differences.

Living in Oklahoma, I can tell you—Nichols will fry.

I was channel-surfing and buzzing past the local TBN channel, when I heard them playing a worship song in the transition between shows—it was a recording of people singing “Jesus reigns, Jesus reigns, Jesus reigns, Jesus reigns.” I thought the tune sounded familiar—then it hit me—they were singing to the tune of Prince’s “Purple Rain”! Another strike against Christian originality!

Brandon: Such an interesting question! Actually, even the least-Bible-believing ECUSA churches in the world use a liturgy that sounds pretty old, and can in fact be pretty good—until the sermon starts.

Anyway, the two issues are somewhat separate. The reason for using the older (1928) liturgy instead of the newer (1979) liturgy has more to do with how “Roman” the newer liturgy is. Sorry, Jenny. Most of it is subtle, but considering how much I appreciate the fine line the 1928 liturgy walks with regard to issues like the Real Presence and the Office of the Keys, it’s still important.

The point is—and I’m rambling—there are many fine evangelical ECUSA churches which use the modern liturgy and wave incense around and whatever else. There is a list of the parishes using the 1928 BCP (not including my own, oddly enough, but including many Anglican and Episcopal churches that are not ECUSA), and there is also a site for The Network of Anglican Communion Dioceses and Parishes, but I’m hard-pressed to find a list of churches on that site anywhere.

Best option: give me an area and let me ask around. :-)