Since I’ve been gone a week, I certainly shouldn’t walk back into the Tavern and start calling people names, right? I mean, I’m a nice guy, so I should be nice. I certainly won’t point out that the two anti-magic-book guys around here have turned on each other over the issue and now one of them is quoting Capon who is parsing verses in a very magic-bookish way to make his point. That would be rude! I’ll just wait until that whole thing implodes. (JN)

On Mohler: There is a huge overlap between the pool of home-schoolers and the “quiver-full” crowd, so I’ve heard stuff like this my entire life, and I go back and forth on it. I don’t buy the RCC-style idea that we should all have kids as fast as we can for as long as we can, though a goodly number of my objections are borne of pragmatism: I am the oldest of seven kids and my wife is the oldest of six. But I also do question—and I’m sorry for the opportunity for offense I know I am offering to Tom and other who have made similar choices—why someone deliberately chooses no kids at all. When it all boils down, Mohler’s examples seem to be of people reveling in selfishness, no?

Heck, we’re all selfish. My decision to have three kids instead of fourteen can be seen by some as selfish, I’m sure, though I think selfishness was far from our minds when we had three kids in 36 months. I’m selfish in choices I make every day, so I’m really not trying to point fingers on selfishness. BUT—and here is where I am probably being offensive despite my intention—few things seem to be as significant in the maturity of an adult as having children. When I think of what my wife and I were like before kids and compare that to now, I’m astounded, and I think that experience is common to most parents. When I compare the evidence of maturity I see in the lives of the average parents with the evidence of maturity I see in the lives of the average childless couple, the contrast seems stark.

There are exceptions, of course. I know parents who are still mind-bogglingly selfish, and the kids suffer for it. Because of that, I question Mohler’s focus even on the days when I accept his premise. Determined permanent childlessness is a symptom, not a problem in itself.

But despite exceptions, I think that most people can agree that the common major events that lead to the most dramatic increases in maturity in the average person are marriage and parenting. Sure, moving out on one’s own can be a big deal, as can graduation from high school and college and so on. But looking backwards, nothing seems to compare to marriage and parenting. They’re make-or-break events, and your life will change or your marriage or parenting will fail, period.

Anyway, I’ve drifted from my point, which is this: Doesn’t Mohler have a little bit of a point? Does it say anything about where we are as a society that organizations exist in many major cities to celebrate the choice to permanently remain childless? Given that I’m trying not to—and failing—sound like I’m saying, “I’ve got mine, where are yours,” what is the real reason we choose how many children to have? Heck, why did I really choose to snip-snip after having three?

I honestly think that we can make the right decisions for the wrong reasons, and it is that on which I think Mohler should have focused. Maybe it is a good thing that he-and-she never have kids, but is it a good thing that they make that choice because they don’t want to disrupt their vacation schedule? It’s a more complicated issue than Mohler seems to represent, but I think he’s not wrong in identifying selfishness as a problem in America.

I’ve been studying James lately. What a corker is that book! The standard James describes for Christian living is so far away from how I live and how I view life I’m inclined to dismiss it as a “right strawy epistle” and muster theological arguments about why the book doesn’t carry weight and so on and so forth. Still, with the distinction between Law and Gospel in hand, imagine what would happen if North American Christians really started to live as James suggests! Just James 1 is enough for me to realize that I suck pretty badly at “the righteous live that God desires.” It’s a good thing it isn’t a requirement!

Oh well, I’m babbling. Sorry to all!

Not being a Baptist (and being the one who provided Baptist jokes on this board a few days ago) I don’t know if I have the right to ask this question. But I will, and I did. I’m wondering if it’s such a good thing the conservatives “won” over the moderates in the Southern Baptist Convention. Now you have people pushing to get Baptists to pull their kids out of public schools, and seminary presidents confusing ancient cultural norms with Biblical mandate concerning childbearing. Of course, it isn’t confined to Baptists. Years ago, when I was attending an independent Charismatic church, there was one husband who felt convicted to have his vasectomy reversed (he and his wife had already had 4 kids, mind you) because he fell under this kind of teaching.

Bill said it very well. Do you WANT these type of people having children? I don’t. Live your lives, people. If it doesn’t include children, well, there are enough people who want them that I don’t think the planet will depopulate any time soon. As for the Baptists, quit trying to become part of a Jay Leno monologue, OK?

is deeply flawed. First off, he is not talking about deliberate childlessness within the context of Christian marriage, which is the only place where he might honestly have something to say. (note: he might still be wrong, but at least wrong in the right place) If deliberate childlessness is indeed a sin (IF) then decrying it to the non-Christian world is stupid and futile, much like decrying homosexuality to a non-Christian and non-caring audience. Secondly, he tells barren couples (whether they want children or not) that they are cursed by God. Not a good way to win friends and influence people. Third, he denies God’s sovereignty (inconsistent, for a well known calvinist). If God wants them to have kids, they will darn well have kids. Lastly, if the country is indeed full of selfish, narcissistic, uncaring pleasure seekers, then shouldn’t we be GLAD they aren’t reproducing?

Mohler takes a month off, and leaves us with this piece. BHTers will recall our debate over this. Mohler’s stock dropped big time in my book with this piece. Mohler’s failure to distinquish between “moral rebellion” and hundreds of reasons someone might not have all the children they possibly could is a real dufus move. A smart guy engages in some very simplistic- and pastorally hurtful- yammering.

Bill: I’ll be redundant and say that everyone on here should read Capon. The Divine Suspect. The Parable book(s). The Mystery of Christ. If you are brave, Between Noon and Three (but be warned, that one will nuke you.) There’s plenty of Capon in the Amazon used book section. Spend a buck.

I think anyone who cares about theology really owes it to themselves to take the guy on for a few days, because he’s done something pretty amazing: write fresh, interesting, challenging, knock-you-up-sida-da-head theology. You will disagree with him, you will agree with him, you will read your Bible, you will throw your Bible. It will be fun. I promise.

The quote comes from this talk and here’s a quote from the interview following.

Capon: Well, in the far country. You have to distinguish when he was in the far country and then when he came home. When he was in the far country, he made up his confession this way. “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.” Correct. “I am no longer worthy to be called your son.” Correct. But then the third part: “Make me a hired hand in your house.” Incorrect. Wrong. It’s not a repentance. It’s a plan for life. His father could no more make him a hired hand. He would either be a dead son or a son raised from the dead, a lost son or a found son, but a son, not a hired hand. And the brilliance of Jesus as a storyteller is that the father kisses him, the boy, when he gets home. Before he makes his confession, the father kisses him, embraces him, accepts him. That’s the whole image of grace right there. Then the boy finally, in his father’s arms, makes the confession. He says, “Father, I’ve sinned against heaven and before you, and am no more worthy to be called your son.” Period.

Capon’s view is that all of reality is sacramental, and that once we understand Jesus- once we realize that all things are reconciled in Jesus- then everything in scripture and elsewhere is interpreted through the grace of God in Jesus.

Jesus didn’t come to set up a religious system where you could get forgiveness. He came to proclaim forgiveness. Like the messenger in my essay, he didn’t come to say “Here’s how you can make Tiberias Lord.” He came to say “Tiberias is Lord. It’s the truth. Deal with it.” Hence, you are forgiven, says Jesus. Neither do I condemn you. Deal with it.

BTW- I am furiously proofing and editing that piece. Denise is away today, so any feedback from you proofreading types (via email) is welcome.

The Capon quote above is interesting. I don’t have any Capon books so I can’t really look this up. Does anyone know where he gets the idea that this proposition is in fact, accurate?

Canadian Election is upon us today and our church get’s to be a polling station (I love that!... free traffic!). Unlike our southern neighbours we have 3 parties to choose from (used to be four but the two “righ wing” parties joined up… well, actually, it is still four if you live in Quebec…. but I digress). Our Evangelical politicians get hammered in the press so they’ve been downplaying their affiliations the whole time. If the right wing parties don’t win today it could be rightly blamed on their religious and moral convictions which oozed out when they weren’t looking. :-)

I thought the best part of the Bazan article was the “left of the Democratic party left” part. He made some un-fans with that one. Not me, but people that think Republican is synonymous with Christian.

You might have missed this wonderful line in the post that Michael linked to a Pedro the Lion review a few days ago. The interviewer asked lead singer David Bazan why, in spite of the fact that they have almost no following within CCM and are downright offensive to most CCM listeners, they still play the Cornerstone festival:

“There’s a lot of people like me who haven’t totally forsaken their faith but are just really perplexed at the way it’s being practiced. We feel alienated and feel outraged about it and beaten down when we have to be around other people who supposedly believe what we believe. And so for those people we go back as sort of a solace for them.”

Bartenders, take note: if Bazan ever shows up in the tavern, his drinks are on me. In perpetuity.

Write it down. The iMonk said it here. BUSH WILL LOSE. By about 5 points. I won’t make the argument, just the prediction. Get ready for the Democrats America.

Awww geez, the Monk is posting Capon quotes on the top bar again. I feel that we all need to join hands and bow our heads. Whoever’s feeling mystical, light some candles. That can’t hurt. Lord, deliver our wayward brother Michael…

Actually, I think what’s scarier is that I may be starting to grok what you’re saying, Michael. Starting to agree, even. But you won’t turn me into an optimist, dangit. We Reformed Baptist types enjoy our pessimism.

“The Road” is vanishing from American Music.

“Christians have to stop desiring salvation for Anerica unless they are prepared to want a Savior for America.”- Douglas Wilson. I don’t agree with all of this reasoning, but I’m glad he is clearly making his point.

S.M. on the Good as New Bible. Sounds like Spong will be pleased with this.

Imagine this. A new IM article. I won’t try to describe it, because it’s very much a few tentative stabs in the dark, but the reason I write is to keep moving. In my summer faith crisis, this has been a helpful series of reflections. It’s slowly taking shape in my mind. Your feedback is solicited.

Ms.us also has a new post. Part II of my list of evangelicals who aren’t driving me crazy.

Best Friends

Okay, yeah, so some of the wording is kind of weird, but I thought it was neat despite that.

This team is 9.5 games out of first and 5 out of second in a division were they have been told their whole existence they will never win the pennant. They have won 13 of 14 this month, and are exciting to watch. They have many games vs the Red Sox and the Yankees ahead.

Pull for this team. If they were to get within striking distance in the second half, it would make one heck of a season. Remember the ‘69 Mets boys. Sweet Lou, don’t give up on the dream.

Jimmy Draper, head of the SBC’s publishing giant, Lifeway Resources (formerly the Sunday School Board) has a column where he says the SBC is a “frog in a kettle.” His two pronged diagnosis: Not enough urgency about baptisms, and younger ministers are locked out of the SBC power structure.

I have no interest in his predictable first point, but I find the second point fascinating. I’ll translate it all for you.

The conservatives who mounted the revolution from 79-the late 80’s feel they own the farm. They look upon younger SBC pastors as “late arrivals” who have no denominational loyalty and don’t want traditional SBC goals. Sort of a conflict between Texas SBC types (Jack Grahamers) and Rick Warren wannabes.

The route to power in the SBC is through appointment. It’s a good ol’ boys network of the highest order. Draper- who is a sharp cookie- is saying that the future of the deomination lies in letting the the younger men into the power structures. Committees. Trustees. Conference speakers and so on.

Draper sees the evangelical squabbling within the SBC as a kind of generational turf war over the “winnings” of the resurgence. Given where the power really is, I think he’s right. You won’t see the Rick Warren gang taking the SBC Presidency or any other substantive position any time soon. And that means networks like Saddleback and Willow Creek will loom even larger as denominational type identities for many churches.

What Draper is really saying: We are going to see a lot of $$ go away from the SBC if we don’t get the younger pastors onto the bus.

Jeff Jarvis’ take on Moore’s movie. Add it to your fact file. Excellent review.

Paul Johnson- my favorite historian- on Bill Clinton. (BTW—the early chapters of the book are interesting, especially to anyone raised in the same culture as Clinton, which I was, minus the drinking and wife beatings.)

From the WP:

Cheney said he “probably” used an obscenity in an argument Tuesday on the Senate floor with Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) and added that he had no regrets. “I expressed myself rather forcefully, felt better after I had done it,” Cheney told Neil Cavuto of Fox News. The vice president said those who heard the putdown agreed with him. “I think that a lot of my colleagues felt that what I had said badly needed to be said, that it was long overdue.”

Cheney said yesterday he was in no mood to exchange pleasantries with Leahy because Leahy had “challenged my integrity” by making charges of cronyism between Cheney and his former firm, Halliburton Co. Leahy on Monday had a conference call to kick off the Democratic National Committee’s “Halliburton Week” focusing on Cheney, the company, “and the millions of dollars they’ve cost taxpayers,” the party said.

“I didn’t like the fact that after he had done so, then he wanted to act like, you know, everything’s peaches and cream,” Cheney said. “And I informed him of my view of his conduct in no uncertain terms. And as I say, I felt better afterwards.”

For the theological basis of my endorsement of the VP’s choice of words, see the rigney essay that is beloved by cussin’ Christians around the world.

From “Our Problem With Grace.”

Everyone loves the story of Zacchaeus in Luke 19:1-10. There are two actions that make the story interesting. One is Jesus’ gracious and brash self-invitation into the home of a despised tax collector. The other is the declaration of a stunned Zacchaeus that he will give away half his worth to the poor, and return four times his unethical takings. (What an example for Americans!)

The teacher in me wants to give you the assignment of writing a modern evangelical version of this story. Here are some hints.

Jesus would have to be invited into Zach’s house by Zach himself, of course. Or knock on the door pleadingly before Zach lets him in. (The handle is on the inside.) Once there, Zach would promise to be a good tax collector from now on and share his testimony whenever he had the opportunity. He would buy lots of WWJD merchandise to remind him of what kind of tax collector Jesus would be. He might join a ministry of Christian tax collectors and form an accountability group. Of course, there would be the book deal.

Look closely. Jesus doesn’t require anything of Zacchaeus, but he gets a lot of obedience from him. Or at least, the declaration of obedience. I don’t really KNOW what Zach did after that dinner. I know what Jesus did, and as impressive as Zach’s promise is….it really doesn’t matter what he did. It doesn’t matter if he does all of what he promised, or does half, or takes a while to get around to it. The point is the grace of Jesus. Grace is the point. Not Zach’s obedience.

Doesn’t that just bug you? Admit it. Don’t you feel like Zacchaeus should have to be on a repayment schedule or something? Or can you buy it: Zach’s obedience is really beside the point?

All these folks understand that Macarthur’s project doesn’t help us. It leads us to despair. Do Macarthur’s books awaken the endangered soul? Maybe. I dunno. I do know that they drive thousands and thousands of sensitive conscienced, overly parented Christians into the waiting arms of legalism.

Spurgeon didn’t preach much on obedience and sanctification. He glorified God in the Gospel and related it to obedience. How many of the parables of Jesus distinquish obedience and faith for the sake of more obedience? A few. How many emphasize faith at the scandalizing of obedience? Many. There’s method to that madness.

What bothers me is I deal with lost people all the time, and they are far more attracted to obedience schemes than to the Gospel. Same with Christians. Hence, Jerry Bridges has balanced those books on holiness with books like Transforming Grace, Holiness by Grace and The Gospel for Real Life.

I grew up with a thousand sermons on obedience for good Christians. They could be reduced to a list of about 5 things important (or obnoxious) to fundamentalists. I decided long ago that the obedience produced by that kind of preaching isn’t from faith, it’s grown in the garden of guilt, fear and religious self-importance. It may produce some good things, but it’s not the cake. (With PW out gambling his savings away on a cruise, I can say cake all I want.)

Michael, on the other hand, I somehow still accept George MacDonald’s observation on the relationship between faith and obedience:

Faith and obedience are one and the same thing; what in the heart we call faith, in the will we call obedience.

The distinction, though, is that from what I understand, MacDonald isn’t saying, saving faith always manifests obedience in the believer so much as when faith moved out of my heart and into my will, it produces obedience. Beside the fact that it would appear that MacDonald understands obedience as responding to the inward voice of the Spirit rather than behaving in accord with the specific propositions of scripture.

I have to say, though, that the whole Lordship Salvation thing strikes me as parallel to something out of The Holy Grail: “How do you get to be Lord? I didn’t vote for you.” As if somehow sovereignty works everywhere but in my heart..

Danny hit’s the Gmail spot
Since Danny doesn’t put the “comments on” thingy on (shouldn’t that be on by default?) I need to say… how did you get a Gmail account? I’ve been lurking their page for months waiting to apply! I’ll give you a “high five” back if you tell me!

Baptists need love too
The only reason baptists are cheap is because they are poor from giving all their money to God! Of course, the same could be said for Mennonites, Alliance, Pentecostal (not the “name it and claim it” ones.. they throw money around to show off)... and for me…. shame.

The better browser
OK…. let’s admit it… using IE is a sign of spiritual bondage. Using OE is a sign of soul jeopardy.

Bill, the answers are: 2 canoes and a rowboat with an electric motor, and Trout Lake. Bring your family. I’ll email and we’ll work out details.

Michael, what bothers me most about MacArthur’s comment is how absolutely naive he is. I recommend he read Archibald Hart’s [book based on surveys he took of pastors and seminary students] and shut the h**l up.

Prester Scott responds to an ms.us post, and a good discussion follows. Thanks Scott.

BTW- David at Jollyblogger left a nice comment in the thread.

A wonderful article on Christianity and fiction at the newly designed WorldMag site.

I have a GMail account. :)

Jack has a new xanga. (Can’t call these things a blog, Jack. Sorry.) Guys, Jack used to blog here, but his wife caught him. A lesson for everyone to learn.

Today was the end of the second quarter. I flunked one of my 16. The POW-AH. I would feel bad, but most of my class did real well, and this gal just turned in zilch on purpose. Hey honey, if you want to trade 7 days for 9 weeks, be my guest. So now I need a decent American novel for the third quarter. There must be a list somewhere. Most of the kids left at 12:30, so I showed “Jeremiah Johnson” to the kids who were left. “Skin ‘im, pilgrim….and I’ll git ye another one.”

We leave on some family-in-Owensboro time Mon or Tues. OBI homecoming is tomorrow, which is a huge deal, but I really don’t do much. I help set up and take down. I eat once or twice. And I come home and work on sermons, except I already have my sermon for Sunday and can loaf. Noel is going back to Lexington this weekend to visit her mentor, go to TCPC and go to Bardstown to see a friend in The Stephen Foster Story. I’m reading the Clinton book. He doesn’t hide the fact he came from trashy people.

The passage says God has now spoken finally and uniquely in the incarnation of Jesus. Jesus is the Final Word. The rest of Hebrews underlines this again and again, as does all the NT. It’s the central message. This passage is every bit as important as John 1. A God who spoke in the past in various ways has now spoken the final and complete Word in the person of his incarnated Son.

What “dispy” assumptions are we supposed to find in this passage? It’s more of a challenge to people who believe in some form of continuing prophetic revelation. Do you mean cessationist? Help me get on the same page with you.

If you are asking how it applies to people who keep hearing from God, I guess I would say that if what they hear goes beyond what God reveals in Jesus, they’ve got a new religion on their hands. (See Joseph Smith for details.) If you mean people who say “God told me to buy a Camry and give it to Spencer,” then they are obviously hearing the voice of Jesus.

How do folks deal with this type of passage:

Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

In a non-dispensational way?

Michael: There is one more multiple choice option:

e) silence (doesn’t justify a response)

Far more civilized, imo, far more professional, far more grown up person-ish.

Jim: Do you have a boat there? I’ll try to make it up if I can. What lake is it again?

Reading several pages recently of the reformer’s writings on “the Christian life”. It seems they all agree with Jesus. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness…..they shall be filled, eventually.

There, in the Believers I have met, who I respect, is an honesty with Sin that is not found, tmk, outside Christianity. They both love and hate sin. The sin goes deeper than just guilt. I agree with David. God’s law is awesome. But then I ask – why do we need it? Like Calvin I wonder about Heaven. Take away my flesh, which is a snare, and I’d be “good”.

Perfection, I don’t think, has ever been expected from a Believer. Just obedience. The perfection comes from the One who kept the Law for us.

Jollyblogger devotes considerable space to responding to my comments about Macarthur.

Let me say right off the bat I have no problem with Jollyblogger. He’s a class act, I love his work, and I have no quarrel with him at all, though its obvious that we are at different places in our pilgrimages. Please friend, hear me when I say that there is no hope of reconciliation between my conception of the gospel and Dr. Macarthur’s. “Hard to Believe” absolutely was one of the most depressing experiences of my reading life, and I’m not revisiting the possibility that Dr. Mac has the Gospel that I need to hear. I’ve ended my time under his influence.

I would also point out the post immediately following my post about Dr. Mac. It says more than I can say here. It ought to be read as part of the previous, quoted, post.

I don’t want a debate, because debate is part of what I hate about this entire system. Lining up every verse in a theological house of cards and seeing if mine is higher than yours. More verses. The truth is that my views on grace, and the Bible would send me out the door of Master’s Seminary before morning.

So let me say a few things in clarification:

1) When “The Gospel According to Jesus” first appeared, it earned a response from Michael Horton in the apparently out-of-print book “Christ the Lord.” Macarthur stood corrected- to his credit- and the new editions of GAJ have additional material addressing Horton’s concern. Which was, btw: Faith is not the same as obedience.

I would like to know Horton’s view of “Hard to Believe,” because it appears to me we are right back into the same old habits. Faith=obedience to the law.

Horton and the guys at Mod Ref, particularly Rod Rosenblatt, have kept the spotlight on this error, though not on Macarthur personally. IMO, Macarthur represents a “new Puritanism” which Spurgeon noted in his day was fuzzy on the distinction between a law and Gospel work in the heart. The Gospel recovered by Luther was “simul justus et piccator.” Is that Macarthur’s Gospel?

2) I am grateful to Mac for all I’ve learned, but I have no desire to identify myself with Macarthur. I’ve read dozens of books and listened to hundreds of tapes. I own hundreds of tapes. I have ALWAYS felt something was out of place, and it wasn’t until I read Capon and Manning that I began to sense what it was. Macarthur’s Puritanism says that assurance comes from self-examination. The only assurance I get in self examination is the assurance that I am wretchedly sinful. Assurance must come from the Gospel, and from looking to the cross. IOW, I think the New Puritan emphasis on self-examination tends towards legalism, and I can point to whole denominations (cough Reformed Baptists cough) as examples.

3) Josh….this one’s for you. The Law/Gospel distinction has become ever more precious to me. And the “Law work” isn’t bringing me evidence that I’m really saved. The Law work is to make me helpless and dependent on the Gospel promises. Walther is required reading for Macarthur, imo. I’d like to know what he thinks.

4) In my experience, this whole “are you evidencing conversion?” business leads to despair, almost identical to the despair of the “are you Spirit-filled?” routine. It eventually leads to dependence on preaching that peels you like an orange and continually sends you to greater and greater law keeping. The people I know who are most enamored with the New Puritans are often, though not always, convinced that “self discipline” and “more expositional preaching” and nouthetic counseling are the cures for their sinful condition. I’ll leave it to Jim to finish this paragraph. Just the thought of considering such a mindset as the dynamic of the Christian experience makes me queasy.

I appreciate the long reply, and I would love to be the sort of person who could engage in a long, multi-post debate, but I yield the floor. I was just posting MY personal response to Mac’s words as applied to people I see as typical of all of us. All of us are addicted to sin. It’s power is broken, but I have a long way to go. And the more I know of Jesus, the more I really am not going anywhere much in this life. Thankfully, He is the road, and the journey and the reward.

Intelligent response to Democrats accusing The VP of starting a war and killing Americans for the sake of profits for his old employer.

a) Golly gee fellas. That’s so silly.
b) Now Pat, we all know that’s not true.
c) I appreciate our differences Pat, and I hope we can still be friends.
d) What he said.

Answer: d

In case you ever wonder what the early church thought of abortion, and in case actual scripture doesn’t do it for you… I always go to the non-gnostic NT apocrypha:

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion. (Apocolypse of Peter 1:25)

Bill: God is in the details. My trip to your area has been delayed by a week, so I’ll be coming up on the 3rd and staying through most of your week-long fish slaughter. If you’d like to decimate part of our lake, you’re welcome; I have a house full of wannabe fisherfolk who are disappointed by having a Dad who won’t bait hooks or take the catch off the hook.

Tom: I do a variation on your scheme, but live at our church in the “overflow” area (where the service is showing live on a closed circuit screen) some Sundays. It has the potential to make me enemies (as if that matters at this point, I say with a sad nod toward Michael), but it’s a lot of fun.

Please join me in congratulating my wife Laurie for landing a role in our community theatre production of Songs from the Tall Grass, they start rehearsals next week, though she’s sung a bunch this is her acting debut. I’m about as proud as can be, my wife’s going to be famous and I hope to retire early…

I auditioned too, but they asked me to sing, always a bad idea. When I was finished the lady said, “They could really use some help on the technical crew”. I got the message.

Bill,
If you had given those computers to a conservative group, instead of someone showing up with a food basket, you’d have seen someone show up with several representatives from other conservative groups asking for their computers! (jn) (see previous Baptist jokes for reference!)

Joell: My experiences are similar to Michael’s and Tom’s jokes are familiar and illustrative of the sort of stereotypes (and are not stereotypes often “earned”) that many in the U.S. have toward Baptists. My opinion is that the “pride that oozes” is often carried by whatever denomination is locally in the majority. IOW, Lutherans here in Minnesota seem to me to be a lot like Baptists were in Colorado; though I’d have to say that Lutherans make better neighbors, Baptists tend to try to fix you. Lutherans offer you a beer and a brat. Also another anomoly, I hear from a young man I know who’s a waiter that Sunday afternoons are coveted as times of great tipping, which I’ve heard is not the case in Baptist country.

Once Laurie (my wife) and I visited a Baptist Church in Olathe Colorado, the pastor approached us after the service and asked; “Are you Christians?”, to which we replied “yes”, he then, focusing more closely and giving us a knowing nudge with his arm asked; “Are you Baptists?” We didn’t make the cut, we said “no!”.

Cheney: This episode just shows me that the guy has no class. He’s Vice President, for crying out loud, not some dumb jock who’s just been insulted and can’t come up with an intelligent rebuttal. His boss has enough problems without this kind of stupidity. Just ignore the criticism from Leahy and his ilk.

MST3K: One of the best shows ever! These guys get paid to do what I get yelled at for at home.

Liberals: I have a softer spot for liberals today than I did two days ago. I donated some of our school’s old computers to a local food co-op (not a republican friendly zone) and yesterday they showed up at my office with a basket! Fresh jalapeno flatbread, goat cheese, two different kinds of scones, organic sumatran coffee, apples, dried fruit, almond butter cookies, lindoor truffles, white chocolate, and a free membership! The lo-carb diet will suffer a bit until this is gone.

Fishing: Kent, leave some fish for me. One more week of work, VBS, and a 4th of July farewell picnic for our pastor. July 5th begins 4 weeks of vacation. Then it will be a bad time to be a fish in New York.

Tom: You made Denise and me laugh. Have a free game of pool on the house. And we’ve been playing MST with EVERYTHING for years now. That show has ruined my kids. Even my sermons get the treatment.

Earlier this evening I found myself, for some reason, watching Benny Hinn preach his normal load of uninformed crap. I started making wisecracks, disputing about everything he was saying. Then I got this brilliant idea for a TV show (which wouldn’t work because I’d get sued I’m sure, but anyway…) Do something like Mystery Science Theater 3000 where a guy and a couple of mechanical things (heck, this could just be three guys, or two guys and a girl) comment on a televangelist’s sermon while the sermon is in progress. They could make both smart-alecky statements and astute theological observations (not that those two are mutually exclusive). Again, you could never get away with it, but it’s an idea, anyway.

Q: Why do Baptists never have sex standing up?
A: Because it might lead to dancing.

There are three basic religious truths:
Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
Protestants do not recognize the Pope as head of the church.
Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store or at Hooters.

There once was a barber in a large city who made it a policy that he would never charge the clergy for a haircut. One day a Jewish rabbi came for a haircut, and when he offered to pay, the barber told him “No charge for clergy.” The next morning on his doorstep, the barber found a loaf of Jewish rye bread. A few days later a Catholic priest came for a haircut, and when he offered to pay, the barber told him “No charge for clergy.” The next morning on his doorstep the barber found a bottle of wine. Later, a Baptist preacher came for a haircut, and when he offered to pay, the barber told him “No charge for clergy.” The next morning on his doorstep the barber found 50 Baptist preachers who’d all come for their free haircut!

Michael,
Well, you beat me to it. All day long at work I was thinking of a comeback and I thought of that Reagan quote (or FDR or whoever it came from) and then you hammered me with it. OK, I give up. But I think we may get to the point where people get fed up enough with the Republicans and Democrats and a third party might be a viable option. Let’s hope when or if that happens it gives us somebody better than Ross Perot. Or Jesse Ventura.

You’ll excuse me for endorsing open and hell-deserving sin, but VP Cheney gets a Guinness from me on this one. The repeated Democratic lying about Haliburton- which Cheney left in 2000- is beneath contempt and deserves the mighty F.U. It would get him kicked off the BHT, but this was in the Senate. Not a classy operation like we run here.

Joell: Baptists in the U.S. are not a soft and cuddly bunch. Though there are plenty of non-angry, non-Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson Baptists, the high profile of the SBC and the aggressive media campaigns of the same have given the whole country a healthy fear of people who say God Almighty doesn’t hear the prayer of a Jew, everyone is going to hell who can’t name the day they prayed the prayer, women must submit and so on. The recent leadership of the SBC has featured some high profile fire and brimstone with foot in mouth disease. They are feared. I am one (sorta) who works for them and I fear them. I much prefer cuddly Catholics and positive-thinking Presbys.

These are the 18- to 34-year-olds who ignore denominations, who erase the lines between secular and religious realms, who insist, as Strang says, “God is God, truth is truth, and they’re everywhere, so you have to look everywhere.”

I played that game. Haven’t we all? (perhaps some still do). It’s shallow. It’s confusing. It’s shallow. It’s flashy-lame and hyper-static. :/

Baseball reaction game. .1480 is my best :/

I was reading through Halley’s Bible Commentary one evening and ran across a statement that effectively said; “The Mary in this passage could not have been the Mary of Magdala who was delivered from demons and likely a prostitute; a prostitute could not have risen to a position of leadership in the early church.” The cover is barely hanging on due to damage from hitting a wall at high speed.

The gospel obviously has it’s limits (mega-jn).

Jesse: My condolences, I’ll try to catch a walleye in your grandfather’s honor this weekend.

Greg Packer….professional man on the street. If your confidence in the media wasn’t crumbling, here’s the hammer.

Focus on the Family says….meet our latest Christian Celebrity!!

The Relevant Guy, Cameron Strang.

Pedro The Lion coverage.

Interesting piece on religious education: hazard or help?

The translation by John Henson from the organization “One” aims at a “new, fresh and adventurous” translation of the early Christian scriptures. It is designed both for mature Christians and for those who have limited experience of traditional Christianity or “may have found it a barrier to an appreciation of Jesus”. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Check out who endorses it.

Also, I went to a mega-church last night with a friend. I asked myself why I went. To hang out with a friend? Yes. To worship? Eh, candles make things “spiritual”. I didn’t “feel” God there but the leaders did. To hear a sermon? Sure, I’m always up for that. I prayed and worshiped. Guess I am still a “bad” Christian.

Jesse: That’s a bummer dude. Words fail me in these times.

JS: My condolences to you and yours.

Return of the Prodigal: There’s a beautiful fresco of called “The Return of the Prodigal” by Ben Long at my alma mater.

I can’t help notice an undercurrent of fear and trepidation regarding those “baptists” (usaully directed towards the fundies) which, as a Canadian, is a tad confusing. I don’t live in a country where the biggest denomination (I know, they aren’t really a denomination but a “fellowship”... but, let’s be realistic) is Baptist and strikes either fear, loathing or warmth into the hearts of all. Where I live… no one really knows… nor cares… what a “baptist” is. They only associate “baptists” with our church… not with any other body/organization.

So, here’s my question. What does the words “baptist church” mean to you all? Also, what does it mean to average pagan on the street?

Curious in Kitimat.

PS
MacArthur
His dad was my pastor while I was a teenager. I loved him. However, it’s seems, Micheal, that you’ve sensed the same frustration I feel with those who feel that pure theology leads to a pure life. I’m not sure it works that way.

I have this picture in my office. A very big print. It’s right where I can see it as I work. I rarely go a day that I don’t think about this picture.

All I am is the boy on his knees in this picture. ALL. All I am and ever aspire to me. That boy is all that it means to be “spiritual.” All that it means to be “holy.” All that it means to be a “real Christian.” The whole Christian life and everything I believe about God and the ultimate meaning of life- right there in the picture.

I’m pretty sure a lot of theologians and outliners of sentences in the epistles and people concerned with the moral deprivation of society think this is stupid, but if I had one minute to tell what the whole Bible is about, I would explain that picture. Everything I have to say about “my Christianity” is in that picture.

When Macarthur says that those serious sinners aren’t Christians, it’s clear he has another idea. Apparently, the boy gets up and becomes a solid citizen. That’s fine, but there’s no hope for me.

Want to know why I have bailed on John Macarthur? It’s right here in this post from Jollyblogger. Macarthur’s theology of who is a Christian is just about at the point where he has the list in his pocket, and is busy crossing off names. Want to know why I could be a universalist without breaking a sweat? Because of guys like this, whose view of the mercy, kindness and forgiveness of God in Christ is totally swallowed up in their unbalanced insistence on holiness, repentance and obedience to prove you are really really really saved. The Good News? I ain’t hearin’ it. No Cake at all. None. This would drive me nuts.

I admire Mr. Keyes as brilliant and intelligent. He is, however, too far to the right and too idealistic to ever get a majority of the electorate. So I haven’t really spend much time with him. I especially admire his choice to stay in the GOP.

Michael,

Reagan borrowed that from FDR. Ever listen to Alan Keyes talk about how we are supposed to be voting?

The exact statement from the comment thread was: “”Politics is about our personal political views.” And yes, I said that is bizarre. It’s thoroughly baby-boomer-esque, and the result of one of Reagan’s worst lines: “Are you better off now than you were four years ago?”

America has thrived because we have avoided having a separate political party for every variation in political belief. But in a country that wants everything personalized, it won’t be long before there will be more politcal parties than cable channels. I contend the purpose of politics is what is best for all of us, the country, our children, and the comon good. I contend we should keep the multi-party business within a two or at most three party system. I contend that all politics is compromise with what is ideal for me, and idealistic politics is dishonest and disastrous.

The abandonment of the two party system frightens me. Not because the parties are good, but because the alternative (see Israel, etc) is chaos.

Jesse: My condolences for the passing of your grandfather.

JS, I’m so very sorry.

Jesse, in spite of the inadequacy of these words, I’m sorry about the loss of your grandfather.

OK, I’m going to bring this thing out in the open here, because apparently I have some “bizarre” beliefs about voting. Do people not usually vote for the person closest to their own political convictions? Isn’t that how this system works? I mean, not everybody does, I guess, some people vote for who looks best on TV. Apparently Mr. Spencer thinks this is weird, or something. He’s upset with me because I’m thinking about laying out this election, even though that’s still undecided, I might not—if I vote, it will be for GWB even though I have deep misgivings about him—I sure won’t vote for Kerry. If I do vote for Dubya, it will be, guess what, because in general he’s closer to my own political convictions. But, if I vote that way, I guess I shouldn’t vote? I should vote everyone else’s conscious and not my own? Why do I even have a vote, then? I’m confused, so I think I’ll go get a mocha latte or something. Maybe that will clear my head.

Jesse for your grandfather. My grandfather went very much like this the day after I was born. I am his namesake and I wish I had gotten to know him. I’m told he used to run a dogsled trapline in Canada. My other grandfather was a wise and wonderful man and I learned much from him.

A good man, a good life, and one heck of a great way to go. Showing up in heaven dressed for fishing. No hospitals. No doctors. No pain. A fisherman’s dream death. Here’s one to him. May we all be that fortunate.

“May I be in heaven fifteen minutes before they even know I’m gone.”

I would like a beer and a moment of silence for my grandfather.

If that really is Clinton’s blog, why would he choose to make it pink? Unless it’s to attract the ladies…

Well, if anyone wanted to get an intimate look into Clinton’s life, here’s your chance.

Of course, I don’t really believe it’s his, but hey, some people get a kick out of it.

The bookend to the Hitchens piece. Rex Reed worships at the altar of Michael Moore: “Mr. Moore is armed with facts, and he presents them accurately and succinctly.” It’s all true!! it’s all true!!

Michael: Reading that blurb (without references mind you grrr) I can’t help but thinking about Babel.

...The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have (7) the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.

This is interesting for many reasons to me anyways. Technology, as with the recent independent space launch, continues to progress. I am not sure if God was too concerned about people reaching the upper atmosphere but the pride of self-worth and achievement. Imagine if God didn’t scramble the languages (which lead to cultural differences, border disputes, national/international dilemmas) and man was able to continue to grow technologically (and mentally).
Like the Klingon, they’d probably kill God as they saw no more need for Him.

Also, it should be a crime to double-talk in the same sentence.

Jim: You got an email :)

Milk is what you drink when you are out of water. Water is what you drink when you are out of beer.

Ken: Thanks for yet another reason to drink IBC.

Attention Jesus
Your status as Messiah has been revoked. Said status has been instead granted to the Rev. Sun Myung Moon by United States politicians. Please return your name tag and uniform. You can pick up your check next week.

Danny, you should know that I seriously debated whether to relate the following here, and I’ve run the more coarsely worded version of it past the bartender committee. To the ladies present, I completely and totally apologize for the offensive character of the comment at the end of this post, and I also hereby acknowledge that the comment was made by me, and I have no reason to believe that the other parties in the conversation (who may or may not be BHT lurkers, but aren’t currently on the author list) did nothing to express assent or approval for my observation. More »« Less

All you people getting ready to either

a) vote Kerry
b) not vote and give us Kerry
c) vote for the Constitution party or other ways of electing Kerry

here’s what we are going to get:

”...This is your future and I will let science guide us, not ideology….” After listing more ways in which we should “pursue the limitless potential of science”, Kerry adds:”... I have full faith that our scientists will go forward with a moral compass—with humane values and sound ethics guiding the way.”

GOD HELP US ALL!!!!!! WE’RE DOOMED!!!!!!!!!

Also, anyone ever wonder what the best joke Jesus ever told was?

John 1:47-50 is the funniest passage in the Bible… first, the NCV:

47 As Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him, he said, “Here is truly an Israelite. There is nothing false in him.” 48 Nathanael asked, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered, “I saw you when you were under the fig tree, before Philip told you about me.” 49 Then Nathanael said to Jesus, “Teacher, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.” 50 Jesus said to Nathanael, “Do you believe simply because I told you I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than that.”

Now, the SWAP (Scott Ward Authorized Paraphrase)

Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said, “This guy’s a real Jew – he doesn’t lie or anything.” Nate said, “Hey… how do you know me,” cuz he knew he was all cool and stuff. Jesus said, “well, I saw you sitting under a fig tree yesterday before Phillip told you about me.” Nate replied “Teacher! You are the Son of God! The King of Israel!” Jesus raised His eyebrow and said, “You think that because I told you I saw you sitting under a fig tree yesterday that I’m the Son of God? Heh… Behold… you will see even more impressive things than Me seeing people under fig trees.”

I’m writing more for the school these days. This is our President’s column in the State Baptist Paper, the Western Recorder, which has a dead tree circulation in the 35,000 range (?). I’m writing several of them this summer.

After dealing with a major league, Hall of Fame, ADHD baby these past three weeks, I am ready to admit PWinn is totally right in his abhoring of classrooms. I’ve taken my ten deep breaths several times this week. I have three challenging students out of 17. One will be gone Friday. The ADHD poster child may need someone other than me for a teacher. I have no sense of humor after the 100th class clown routine.

Today, we set Huck Finn in another place, time and situation. Interesting suggestions. One put him in Baathist Iraq. Another in a Nazi concentration camp in WWII. Another made it a crime drama, not unlike The Client. We did two days worth of Emily Dickinson poetry, which was a real treat for me. I love her work and have never been able to TALK about what I thought of it.

I continually find myself wondering what it is about Christianity that it can’t produce a Whitman, Dickinson or Thoreau. With few exceptions, Christianity is always on the side of the establishment. Only today, in the decay of civilization and the ascendency of the secular culture, do we again have an environment where Christian poets and artists can speak as the counter culture. (IF they will. Most will find some way to appeal to a cultural situation of the past, rather than engage the present.)

Jim: I can now cancel my seminary career. /jn/

Doctrinal rightness and rightness of ecclesiastical position are important, but only as a starting point to go on into a living relationship – and not as ends in themselves —Francis Schaeffer

I never expect the Canon to reopen. Heb 1:1-2 and others come to mind. Why do we need anything else? I wouldn’t mind another book but I hardly know the stuff in the books we have.

Also, anyone ever wonder what the best joke Jesus ever told was?

As expected, Steve Brown is on the money on theological fallibility:

In dealing with a God who is only known as he chooses to reveal himself, you will be wrong, and you will be wrong a lot.

For Michael : Enjoy

When the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chap 1, Article I) states “those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased”; is that generally interpreted to be cessationist in the way it’s understood today?

It is the position that the canon is closed. Some interpret it to mean that tongues, etc. have ceased.