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| Matthew 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. -John the Baptizer |
The President can’t say “nuclear,” so Kerry says nuclear 100 times in 2 minutes. Bush tries once and says “nukular.” Then he switches to “Weapons of Mass Destruction.” Then he uses a word “transhipment.” I wonder if he knew it was a real word?
I’ve got a question. Recently I’ve realized that I am lacking in the close friendship department. I feel like I don’t really know anybody. A more specific description is here.
The biggest problem is that I don’t know how to get to know people. Meeting people isn’t that hard, but getting to know them seems impossible. So, most of you have had a little more experience than I, so, what would be your advice for a college student who wants to get to know people? How do I build real, firm relationships?
I read an interesting article on depopulation. Well, I thought it was interesting. Comments? Thoughts?
Gentlemen: Please NO DISCUSSION for the time being of God’s sovereignty/critiques of Calvinism and these sad events. I’ve already had one note from an immediate family member about something that was said on here (days ago and by me) and it’s just not appropriate.
They’re still saying the hurricanes could affect turnout for voting, which could affect the election.
Both Democrats and Republicans believe the race hinges on turnout, which likely will be affected by the hurricanes because so many potential voters are distracted by the need to find food and water and to repair their homes. Millions of Floridians have been without power at some point during the last six weeks, leaving them out of touch with campaign news and in many cases, unaware of a presidential visit.
“Bee-na-bow bee-na-bow… getchyachucka… bee-na-bow bee-na-bow…. Getchyachucka…”
Is that the text version of the Seinfeld song?
A recently released single/old song by Andrew Osenga.
So many boxes in the attic,
so many pictures off the walls,
the games we used to play as children,
they’re nothing to the ones we’re playing now,
all alone, all alone, we’re nursing our own wounds,
and if I showed you I was bleeding,
O, would you show me you are too?
cause we heal so slowly, slowly,
but we are on our way.
Bee-na-bow bee-na-bow… getchyachucka… bee-na-bow bee-na-bow…. Getchyachucka…
The Chick Tract Translator
Special Edition, folks… The Chick Tract Translator is back up and running, and all of the old translations are available at good ol’ 5minutewebs.com for your Chicky goodness. In the meantime, we’re going to celebrate with a funky lil’ pile of sexiness from good ol’ Jack T. Chick… “Caught”.
Our story opens in a seedy motel surrounded by demons, angels, and a lot of cars. Lots of cars… It’s like a freakin’ redneck front yard, except none of these cars seem to have cinder blocks supporting the axles. Meh…
Well, Roger and his babe o’ the evening have shown up at Motel Delight to, well… you know. Wink wink, nudge nu… what? You don’t? Oh, come on, man… a sleazy-lookin’ dude and his nervous, slightly cute girlfriend at the sleazy little Hotel DELIGHT. Yeah, I know everybody in town looks like they’ve checked in there, but hey… maybe it’s like, the only sleazy hotel in the Chickiverse. Have you ever thought about that? Huh?
Those poor little Chickians… only one single sleazy motel… You know, you can help them build new sleazy motels. All it costs is your donation of $15 a month. That’s right, for less than a cup of coffee a day, you can help ensure that these poor Chickians have a place to go when they need to get it on…
Anywho, Roger and his “love”, “darling”, or whatever pet name he’s made up for her, have made it to their Chamber O’ Lust for the big event. Unfortunately, they seem to have brought half the population of the Spirit World with them, as there’s four demons, a mangy terrier, and an angel with a Camcorder. That’s right… a camcorder. I guess Heaven’s ready for whenever Johnny Cochrane shows up.
Well, three hours later, Roger and his babe are eating dinner and a gu… wait a minute. They’re eating dinner three hours later? Uh… maybe it’s just me, and every other guy on the face of the earth, but I would think the Hotel Mattress-O-lympics would come AFTER paying for the woman’s meal. I mean, I’m no expert in the matter, but every movie I’ve ever seen on the subject says that gettin’ your groove on doesn’t happen until you’ve gotten your eat on.
I dunno.
Anywho, sadly for Rog, someone recognizes him at the restaurant and asks where his wife is. The unnamed woman Roger’s been dancing the undercover salsa with is shocked… How could he be married? Wow… it’s like, until this very moment, she didn’t even see the tanned spot where his wedding ring goes, the pictures of the wife and kids in his wallet when he pays for the meals, or the hunched-over dead-eyed acceptance of fate when she takes him shopping. It was right there all this time, and she just didn’t even notice it. So what’s a slutty little mistress to do?
Call up the wife of course.
Ol’ Rog gets a Dear Rog letter from Linda (his wife, not his babe), and Rog is ticked. How dare Linda (the wife) write a letter and tell him that he shouldn’t have bumped uglies with Jessica (the babe). Oh, and apparently, Rog hasn’t heard about birth control, because his next thought is of little Rogers running around getting half of Roger’s paycheck, but living with the babe. Poor Roger. Whatever shall we do to calm his weary, worrying soul?
Lock him in a room with a Fundamentalist, of course.
That’s right, Roger’s cousin Henry sends Rog over to visit the computer, organic-chemistry, and Independent Baptist theology genius that is our good ol’ friend Bob. Bob, of course, takes this as an opportunity to ask Roger what he’s been up to. Rog claims he met the babe at church, but Bob sees right through that, because Roger doesn’t attend the local Independent Baptist congregation. Bob launches into the story about how David screwed up with Bathsheba. Bob tells us about how adulterers are super-evil and will spend eternity in the lake o’ fire, and Rog is one of them. Can Rog escape in time? Will Bob’s super-duper witnessing technique of calling people “SINNER” while running around beating himself on the head with a whiffle bat save Roger from being eternally roasted on a spit over the burning juices of his own lustful desires?
Not bloody likely.
That’s right folks… ol’ Roger tells Bob to stick it where the sun don’t shine. Actually, he tells Bob to go to hell. Bob grins smugly, because he knows that Independent Baptists can’t go to hell… as long as they keep distributing Chick tracts in the bathrooms of truck stops across America. Rog finally tells Bob to drop dead. 8 weeks later, Rog drops dead and goes to Hell.
The morals?
1. Angels use camcorders. Probably nice ones, too, like Sony.
2. In the Chickiverse, dinner comes AFTER the illicit sex.
3. Never tell an Independent Baptist to go to hell, or you’ll die 8 weeks later.
Got it.
Mark Steyn
Of late, I am overrun by my emotions nearly all the time.
You’ve been leading me
Beside strange waters
Streams of beautiful lights in the night
But where is my pastureland in these dark valleys?
If I loose my grip, will I take flight?
[Strange Waters], Bruce Cockburn
Off topic, I know, but as we mourn the death of someone, perhaps we can also celebrate the life of someone.
Kurt turns 27 today.
Happy Birthday, dear.
I laid in bed that night and thought about the day
And how my life is like a roller coaster ride
The ups and downs and crazy turns along the way
It’ll throw you off if you don’t hold on tight
You can’t really smile until you’ve shed some tears
I could die today or I might live on for years
I love this crazy, tragic,
Sometimes almost magic,
Awful, beautful life-Darryl Worley
Seems fitting, at least to me.
Last night was rough as I laid there thinking about all love and pain in the world.
I also find comfort and sense in Capon’s approach to reconcilliation of events such as this. His image of hell fitting into the nail hole on Jesus’ hand is symbolically significant to me. At the time of my father’s suicide there was no small amount of contention as to whether or nor he could be buried in “consecrated ground”. It’s funny that I don’t know the outcome, it didn’t matter to me because at that exact point in time I left the church of my childhood behind. It is impossible to separate suicide from sin, it is a sinful act. But the grading and segregating of sin is also sinful, it is inevitable that we sin.
Michael Card has a seminal song called The Edge, his insight belies the fact that he’s personally dealt with the issue of suicide. There is an “Edge” in all of our lives, the boundary between life and death, almost everybody has the power to end their life should they so choose. God allows that. I’ve been close to four people who have killed themselves, close enough that had I known the depth of their struggles I may have been able to make a difference. I’ve also been close to a couple of hundred that chose not to kill themselves though they did contemplate doing so.
I cannot think of one case where pride was not involved. And I cannot think of one case where the suicidal person had no loving resources in their lives. Somebody wanted them to live, yet they still chose or contemplated death.
I’ve been there myself, I’m not discounting the profound pain and helplessness of clinical depression, but the key to the resolution of these thoughts and feelings is to address the pride that is isolating the sufferer from his or her community, the people around him or her that care and will work for resolution and reconcilliation.
Sometimes it just doesn’t happen. But countless times I’ve seen a profoundly suicidal person quickly turn around after engaging on an honest level with the people around them. I can’t say how many times I heard someone say, “boy that Prozac Dr. ____ gave me this morning really worked, yesterday I was suicidal but today I’m fine.” Nearly all anti-depressant’s take 4-6 weeks to achieve efficacy.
My point? Be aware of the people in your life, relate to them, call them, listen to them, be in community with them. When something like this happens, know that the victim felt isolated and alone, and know that the victims he/she left behind will feel the same way. Any of you in or contemplating being in “ministry” will have to deal with isolation, our church communities do not deal well with openness and honesty, especially regarding the feelings of our “leaders”. I’m saddened that so many loved and felt love from Pastor Roukas, yet there was still some sort of boundary of isolation.
Death, and the misery that comes both before and after it, are terrible affronts to the dignity of both the Creator and the creatures made in His image. When Jesus stood at the grave of His friend Lazarus He wept and He was “deeply moved in spirit and troubled” (John 11:33, 35). The word for “deeply moved in spirit” is the word used for the violent snorting of a horse. When applied to humans it means “outraged” or “furious”. Jesus is by no means indifferent to death and the suffering that accompanies it. He cares and is moved by the death of pastor Roukas and the suffering of his family. He cares and is moved by the death of Barry and the grief of his family (I blogged about Barry here - we bury him tomorrow).
I would, of course, never have known pastor Roukas if it had not been for this blog. But I checked out the website when Noel first told us of TCPC and I have read and listened to sermons in these last few days of concern. The tributes are moving. Sounds like pastor Roukas was a wonderful pastor, preacher, counselour and friend to hundreds of people as well as a kind husband and father. I was moved, too, in reading of his wife and how beautifully she copes with her disabilities and ministers with such love to troubled children.
This is outrageous. This is war. But thank God our standard bearer in this war is the Lamb that was slain, the Lamb who Himself was swallowed up by death itself and yet lives now, victorious over death and Hades and all His enemies. He has won the battle and now goes forth victorious to finish the job. Without Him no hope. With Him we are more than conquerors. Death shall never have the last word!
Prayers for all those touched by this event.
My heart hurts. I hate to see this turn into a theological discussion about loving or not loving God mostly because people would be hurt and not learn from it.
On the flip side hearing about such events often pales my issues and thoughts as they are often petty. It’s a real world out there with real hurts outside of my tiny single sided personal problems.
Since we’re sharing stories, a local Christian family lost their 21 year old son to suicide hanging a couple weeks ago. He went to a remote wooded area to do it so they didn’t find his body for 12 days. It took a group of 150 church folks covering the area to find him. He had been active in the church as a youth. I knew his sister from a youth group when I was in Jr. High. He got involved in meth at some point.
Tom: This crap happens because we suck.
Or, to use the technical term: sin.
This is why I am passionate about recognizing the depth and breadth of sin. It is not limited to just certain actions that we do that are “bad,” it is all around us, in everything we think and do, in everything that we are.
Suicide strikes me as the ultimate expression of the effect of sin. It is a celebration of death, while in Christ is life. It is the end of complete despair, while in Christ is hope. It is a complete disconnection from the wonder of God all around us in creation, and it makes no freaking sense whatsoever.
That’s what sin does. And that’s why we should fall on our faces before God and thank him for delivering us from the final cost of sin, though we continue to suffer from it here in this life.
Tom/Phillip, thanks for putting into words what I am thinking. It always freaks me out when we lose one of our ministers for any reason. It makes me wonder how my puny faith can possibly survive when these great men of God succomb to their situations.
Just as we are discussing the tragedy concerning Pastor Roukas, I get an e-mail from the seminary chaplain telling me that the 19-year-old daughter of one of my fellow seminarians was found hanged in her garage last night. If you would like to remember this in your prayers, the daughter’s name was Katie, and her mother’s name is Rejina. Rejina came home from class last night and found her, so she really needs everyone’s prayers.
Why does this s*** happen? It makes no sense.
Possibly a better way to deal with God’s Sovereignty in something like this is to take the Capon approach. Somehow, this event too is reconciled in Christ. Somehow, even though it is horrible and devastating, on so many levels, in the final accounting, God has reconciled even this through Christ.
To me this allows the events to be real, and really horrible, which they are. It also allows God to be Sovereign, and over all, and in all, and through all, which He is.
When I lost my son it was far easier to deal with it in terms of “the devil did it” and any other explaination but God. There was no medical reason for him to die, even after the autopsy, so what was I left with? Eventually, though, I did have to come to grips with the fact that God kills and God makes alive, and He is sovereign in the death of my son. But immediately after it happened, that perspective would be more harmful than helpful. How postmodern and relativistic is that?
I’m going to risk incurring the wrath of iMonk here, and agree with Tom, somewhat. While clearly the poster from Tate’s Creek finds comfort and solace in the knowledge that God’s plans encompass even tragic events such as these, it is very easy to take a different view. I hope that those words provide succor for many, but I want to rage.
It’s sin that did this. Adam’s sin, the fall, death, and decay. The church militant has been robbed of someone about whom I’ve heard many great things, and that gathering has been rocked by the devastation. Pastor Roukas was apparently in the grip of something that shook him and tortured him and drove him to measures to which many of us simply cannot relate, and other of us relate all too well. This is bad! I know I shouldn’t have to say that, but I’m angry. This isn’t just tragic—though it is that—it sucks!
There is comfort in knowing that God holds Pastor Roukas in His hands, and in believing that Pastor Roukas is now with his Redeemer, experiencing the comfort that he could not find here on earth.
But there is also pain for all of those still here, and it might seem a little glib to describe these events as “God’s plans” right now.
When I first heard of the details of the situation with Pastor Roukas, even though I’m many miles away in Oklahoma and did not know him, I nearly broke down and cried, while at the same time praying for him, his family, and the church. As I am in seminary studying for the ministry, the situation made me take a hard look at my own vulnerability. I’m making good grades (GPA 3.81 right now), I’m doing well in Preaching class this semester, there is part of my life that is really together. But I am prone to depression, sometimes to anger (as people have seen on this board!), I lack confidence that I will be received because I’m obese, and I don’t have a very strong support system being single with both my parents deceased. How will being in ministry affect my own mental health? That’s a scary proposition right now.
In the post from the Tate’s Creek Message Board, I object to one thing, and I’m sorry if this sticks in someone’s Calvinistic craw. It is wrong to imply that Pastor Roukas’ suicide was part of “God’s plans.” If God planned for one of his servants to be so miserable and without hope that the only alternative he saw was to take his own life, then I don’t want to serve that kind of God. That’s like saying it was God’s will that your nephew got run over by a truck. That is of no comfort to anyone. If it diminishes someone’s concept of God’s sovereignty, so be it.
This post has been made at the Tate’s Creek Message Board:
We’ve had some extremely sad news. Pastor Roukas was found this afternoon at Red River Gorge (a state park) by a Park Ranger. There are no plans made for a service yet, but I’ll keep posting. I am so sorry. Please continue to pray for his family and church.
I don’t feel that I can say the right words now, so I’ll leave it to God and to prayer. Thank you so much for your prayer…it has meant so much to us. We need it now more than ever. God’s grace brought Pastor Roukas to us, and God’s grace will sustain us through his loss.
Still, Pastor Roukas is with God now. It is always so hard when God’s plans do not coincide with our hopes, but He is working for our ultimate good and will keep us in the faith.
Kent: Obviously, senility is setting in. I may have confused the 40,000-foot Pole with this guy.
I feel very nostalgic tonight as I listen to the radio broadcast of the Expos last home game. Except for the last four or five years it’s been a great ride. I grew up a Baseball fan in Montreal. I’m old enough, just, to remember the excitement of their first game (a win against the Mets) and their first home game (a win against the Cards – I think) and first season (1969). Their names were Carl Morton (P), Bob Bailey (3B), Bobby Wine (SS), Gary Sutherland (2B), Ron Fairly(1B), Bill Stoneman (P), John Bateman©, Mack Jones (LF), Rusty Staub (RF) and a bunch of other journeymen – and skipper Gene Mauch (I’m so glad I can still remember all these names by memory!). They played in tiny Jarry Park, a couple of Metro (subway) stops from my house. Bleachers tickets were under a dollar for a kid. There was not a bad seat in the ugly little park. Mack Jones was so close that he could talk to us without raising his voice. The fans loved him and the left field bleachers were renamed “Jonesville”. The place was packed night after night. These childhood memories are indelible.
Through the years they’ve provided excellent entertainment and some very fine baseball. Think of all the top-notch players who came through this organisation. The list is staggering. Randy Johnson, Larry Walker, Andre Dawson, Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Pedro Martinez, Dennis Martinez, Vladimir Guerrero… one could go on. Even Mark McGwire was originally drafted by the Expos – as a pitcher!
With such players they contended for a playoff berth year after year through the late 70’s, the 80’s and the early 90’s). They came 1 pitch short of the World Series in 1981 (a Rick Monday home run that put the Dodgers over the Expos and into the WS – to this day Monday is a hated man in Montreal). In 1994 they were clearly the best team in MLB – but the strike prevented them from proving it. After the strike the fans didn’t come back.
Bottom of the 9th now. Marlins lead 9-1 with one out. It’s been a great ride boys! Thanks for the memories. Merci beaucoup!
This is will be running through my head for the rest of the evening.
Jim, who’s got the 40,000 foot poll going, Barna or Gallup?
Phillip, great reversal regarding Canada and Britain. More interesting fodder would be the difference I noted in YWAM between US citizens and “subjects” of NZ, Australia and Canada. US citizens quickly gained a reputation for “rebelliousness” among the members of the other former colonies.
In my area, most “successful” church youth ministries start from the assumption that the vast majority of their participants are unchurched. Our own church provides the church kids who attend with the opportunity to participate in service, but the youth program is largely an “outreach” program.
I won’t touch either the “treating any Muslim like a terrorist” or the “pastor calling someone out for adultery” questions with a 40,000 foot poll. I doubt I can handle the flaming emails my responses would engender.
I do not believe students are being grounded through discipleship. Most churches are happing entertaining their youth and keeping them involved and not giving them the essentials of the Christian faith. I have worked with college students the last few years and I can tell a big difference in students who have gone to Churches that are more serious about spiritual maturity rather than fun and games.
This came by email today:
The Southern Baptist Council on Family Life uncovered some disturbing facts: of the children raised in evangelical homes, 88% leave the church at age 18 and never return (The Foster Letter-Religious Market Update, August 10, 2002, p.1).
Why do you suppose this is so?
QotD: Is it the pastor’s job to enforce morality?
Frankly, I like the PCA’s take on this. The answer is plain: it’s the pastor’s job to begin the process of driving the person to repentence. The PCA has a disciplinary proceedure set up, and as far as I can see, the whole purpose of the entire process is to try to encourage the person into a repentant state – to bring their lives into line with scripture. Beyond that, there are other steps that can be taken.
Is it the pastor’s job to enforce morality?
I am going to say Yes. But qualify it.
The tender of the flock is to ensure that everyone is in “line”. Although like sheep we are stupid and the flock is a bunch of stupid four legged animals used to clothe another.
Pastors have a unique responsibility to ensure that the Church remains Holy. Ouch, sounds rough. This is not yet legalism or enforced morality as neither of those come into the equation when Grace is applied.
I love Peter, who slices off the ear, and is scolded by Jesus. Jesus didn’t hit him or question his Salvation or even his faith. I don’t think anyone, unlike evanjellyfish today, question someone’s Salvation if they understand that we are all sinners. Those who follow Jesus, and therefore are apart of the visible church, have expectations for their behavior. They are to love. That’s how we are to be known as followers of Christ.
So I’ll say “yes” to church discipline but no to the many ways these situations are handled. There is no question of Salvation. There is simply confronted hypocrisy. If I was going to quote Paul I’d say “Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! ” Or better yet I’ll quote Jesus “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” Or perhaps the Danny’s paraphrase “Peter!! Didn’t I tell you I was going to die? Why are you trying to stop it? Listen, you aren’t acting in love or obedience”.
Only Jesus sucessfully combined “Truth” and “Grace”.
When did Jefferson say that? When he was President of the USA? Or some time before that? Even the Bolsheviks stopped being interested in rebellion at one point, namely, when they took power.
Kent: An interesting way to reverse the question you asked is to ask this: Would Canada and the U.K. be what they are today had the colonies not rebelled?
For better or worse, I think not.
I realize the rumors about Yusuf Islam, but they are unsubstantiated at best - unless, of course, there is something we don’t know about. In which case, why doesn’t the government make the info public? When have they been shy about outing terrorists and specifically detailing their terrorist leanings? So far, they’ve been pretty vague:
“Why is he on the watch lists? Because of his activities that could be potentially linked to terrorism. The intelligence community has come into possession of additional information that further raises our concern.” - Brian Doyle, Homeland Security Spokesman.
“Potentially”?
I realize, of course, that Islam may be lying and just dedicating his entire life to peaceful causes as a clever ruse, but he has been very vocal about what he thinks about terrorism. I posted one example below. Here’s another:
Of course actions speak louder than words, which is why it’s significant that Islam has poured much of his efforts and money into causes that seem to belie terrorist leanings:
He has also spoken out repeatedly against terrorism since Sept. 11. Soon after terrorists attacked New York and Washington, Mr. Islam wrote “No right-thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action. The Koran equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity.” Words of an Islamist fanatic, or genuine sympathy for innocent life taken by those who have hijacked his, and my, religion? He expressed similar sentiments when the children of Beslan were slaughtered, and has been engaged since the horror two weeks ago in bringing relief to those families as well.
Like I said, maybe it’s all a ruse, but I would need some more evidence of that than storm troopers grounding a plane.
Yusef Islam gave money to the Hamas, indirectly, possibly unwittingly, through Muslim charities. The Israeli government hasn’t allowed him in their country for some time.
Sometimes I want to disassociate myself from Christianity because I’m ashamed of myself AS one of His followers.
Cat Stevens on his feelings about terrorism:
“Need I say that any form of terrorism or violence is the antithesis of everything I love and stand for? Anyone who knows me will attest to this. I have spent my life in the search for peace and understanding, and that was mirrored clearly in my music. Since becoming a Muslim, I have devoted my life to education, charity and helping children around the world.
Consistently I have condemned the attacks of 9/11, stating that the slaughter of innocents, the taking of hostages and coldblooded killing of women and children have nothing do with the teachings of Islam. I’ve openly and publicly repudiated the actions of groups that resort to such acts of inhumanity — whatever their names. Any allegations to the contrary are fabricated. The Koran equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of all of humanity.”
To me, this brings home the foolishness of treating any and all Muslims like terrorists. Search his bags, sure, make him take his shoes off. But stop the plane and make him get off? Unless there’s something I don’t know, I am aghast at such treatment. I would be interested in what exactly prompted such a move.
Russell said:
The idea is that the most dangerous thing to good Christianity isn’t atheism, but bad Christianity. I think he may be on to something.
Sadly enough, Russell, I too think this is pretty accurate. I found myself just the other day telling someone that Christians embarrass me about 98% of the time. While that number may be an exaggeration, the point remains: too often, Christians give Christianity a bad name. Of course, I’m sure at some point (maybe more than I care to think about), someone has been embarrassed by my poor attempts at Christianity too, so I guess I can’t sit in judgment. But it is frustrating to find yourself sometimes wanting to disassociate from Christian stuff, not because you are ashamed of Christ, but because you are ashamed of His followers.
Matthew linked to the star wars changes wiki. The sick thing is that I noticed this part on a cursory watching:
The English writing in the Death Star tractor beam control panel is changed to the standard Star Wars “foreign” (Aurabesh) writing.
Danny wants me to post a QotD.
Is it the pastor’s job to enforce morality?
Example: A church member moves in with his girlfriend. What is the pastor’s duty? How far should he go in dealing with it? Can/should he condemn the man to hell if the man refuses to move out? Where does church discipline start and stop?
Kent,
I’ve seen stats that show:
A good number of kids who grow up in non-Christain homes become Christians.
A good number of kids who grow up in consistantly-Christain homes become Christians.
A very low number of kids who grow up in hypocritical-Christain homes become Christians.
This tells me that it isn’t always “whatever you grow up with you hate” type thing, but if what you grew up with was practiced wrongly, or with hypocrisy, you might learn to hate it. Brian McLaren, in Finding Faith, makes a distinction between “good monotheism” and “bad monotheism,” “good religion” and “bad religion” etc. The idea is that the most dangerous thing to good Christianity isn’t atheism, but bad Christianity. I think he may be on to something.
Russell, It’s always seemed to me that reporters are in danger of sort of a Stockholm Syndrome thing regarding the groups that they report on. They become experts by immersing themselves in the rhetoric and eventually believe it, identifying with, in this case, the terrorists more than their own nation.
There is also a tendency to hate what you grew up in. I knew a guy once that decided to become a Buddhist without ever meeting one. He knew he wasn’t interested in being a Christian because he grew up around them. He was sure that people from other countries weren’t hypocrites. He had a Master’s in Microbiology so he wasn’t an idiot…well…
eric, I find that my dual identity as a Citizen (of the United States of America) and a Subject (of the Kingdom of God) are sometimes at odds. The statement of Mr. Jefferson’s that you quoted adds to my strife. As a Citizen I agree with Mr. Jefferson, and would point out that many men throughout history have stood upon a similar brink: Oliver Cromwell, Samuel Rutherford, George Washington and Thomas Jackson to name a few.
As a Subject I wonder; are we that much better off than the British or Canadians today? What is the true fruit of our rebellion? Could we have saved ourselves a bloody and divisive civil war? I prefer being a citizen to a subject, but am I really more free? These are all questions I ponder.
I did receive the first of your lessons, I was able to give it a cursory glance last evening. Sheeze, I’ve got a lot to learn. I want to offer sincere thanks for the help.
Also in Bower’s book, the Convention is reported to have done a lot of debating about “federal” versus “national.” It strikes me that we still don’t have a concensus on which one our government should be some 200+ years later.
Well, for those of us who were complaining about Lucas’ revisions to the Star Wars trilogy on DVD, at least there’s this: Spaceballs II
I can’t wait.
Is the First Ammendment going the way of the dodo? Or are news reporters simply criminal accomplices to terrorism?
While waiting on a Thomas Merton book I ordered to come in the mail, I am reading Miracle at Philadelphia, by Catherine Drinker Bowen. I came across this quote by Jefferson, and I would love to hear what some of you think about it, both in terms of politics and in light of the Biblical treatment of rebellion:
“I like a little rebellion now and then. The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on occasion that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all.”
What think ye?
Prepare to be assimilated… Resistance is futile.
Our church will begin it’s 40 Days of Purpose on Oct. 4th. I will keep the tavern posted as to the assimilation processs, I mean the progress of the study .
My wife and I are to lead a group in one of the host homes
First of all…Warrenninnies. What a great word.
Second, could you people take a deep breath. Count to ten. Thank you. Now…..
I do not write or comment from the standpoint of what is going on in your church. Could you please roll that thought around in the vast open spaces of your mind until it falls in a hole? While I have some comments and questions about various things baby boomer evangelicals like to do in church, I really, really, really don’t care what YOUR church does. I would probably LIKE a lot of it if I were there. I am not the church sheriff, and you won’t find me harping on orthodox, Gospel loving evangelicals for doing their thing differently than I do mine.
Example: I really like Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Do you know why? Because Mark Driscoll has not made a career of telling me that I must do everything his church does, and especially do everything HE tells me to do or be a big loser.
My Warren rant is about how PDC and PDL are being shoved, pushed, rammed, whatever word you want, into my world for the past X years with the relentless fervor of the fanatic. In this case, the fanatic Christian publisher who would produce Purpose-Driven toilet paper if it would sell (and it would.)
So you are not a cult, but the marketers have their cultish ways. You are not heretics. Rick’s book IS mediocre, and confuses law and Gospel, justification and sanctification, but thousands of Christian preachers are still working on that. It’s not heresy. I’ve written about 5 sentences on what Warren teaches that I think is in error. Your church isn’t phony. I don’t doubt that lives are changed. I commend your church for starting missions and exercising church discipline. I really do.
Now about the Purpose-Driven Fruit Cakes you have in the store….
Michael, thanks for that post and link. I was thinking about age last evening as I sat at the college listening to Rocky Raccoon being sung by an “age group peer” to the joy of the “hey, isn’t this our music” students.
We had walked around the halls of the school during intermission to escape the mosquitoes and Laurie said, “Wouldn’t it be fun to take classes together? It’s what I hoped YWAM would be.”
I answered, “At least here we’d be allowed to ask questions.”
I really liked being there and the whole evening I thought about how I’d love to finally finish my degree. I’ve a hunger for learning that I didn’t have in my late teens and early twenties. I have no idea how I could make this happen financially…but I’d still love to accomplish it.
We’re back after a couple of days away with family. It’s been both challenging and painful, prayer would be appreciated. I cannot tell you all how great it is to hear your voices again in my head.
We are starting to run the heater here in MN and are getting intermittent frost warnings, which is actually later than usual. We paddled for a couple of hours yesterday afternoon and though the sun was warm the air was quite cool. The flowers are disappearing, things are getting brown despite the 13” of rain in the last 2-1/2 weeks.
Forgive me…we always talk about the weather. I’ll finish by asking for prayer again, there are a lot of demands for decisions coming from a lot of directions and what I feel like doing is spending a week in the boundary waters. Which isn’t going to happen…
Phillip, thanks again for the wonderful photograph comments. I cannot say how deeply it touches me. And thanks for pointing me to Flickr, we really enjoy being able to share our glimpses of creation.
Bill, your identification of trillium is most likely correct (“tre” and “tri” both mean “three” to me and all I likely noticed was the three leaves). I only take the photos, my wife id’s and works with me on composition. I’m really not much at identifying flowers.
Laurie’s also been hard at work identifying mushrooms, it’s been a great year for it as it’s been very wet. We’ve not eaten any yet, I think she would have tried some but I put my foot down. The North House Folk School on the North Shore of Lake Superior has classes on mushrooming that I want her to take before we eat any. Of course my plan is to take some of their classes on boat building…
Michael, thanks for this post. I gave up many things that promised joy in my life (outdoors, photography, having children) for the pursuit of the evangelical promise based on the magic rituals of the magic book. It was a wrong path as it robbed my life of the things that led me to God in the first place.
At the risk of sounding like a postmoderist when what I really am is an antimodernist, I hate and consider satanic any attempt to reduce the promise of the Gospel to a series of procedures. You cannot convince me that such an approach is not another gospel. Robert Capon in Supper of the Lamb gave us a superb example of how such a meal cannot be created from a recipe, that it can only be created from a relationship.
We recently had two “concert experiences” one decidedly evangelical that sold itself as “worship”, the other from folksingers who happened to be Christians. I blogged both experiences of course and shamelessly plug them here: the sublime and the ridiculous.
Last evening we went to a concert/brat roast at the local community college, my wife later said;
“I’m enjoying myself more at community concerts than at ‘Christian’ concerts, at least I can understand the words.”
I linked this earlier, but I am doing it again because it is simply powerful and so helpful. Here’s a quote that blows the lid off of so much of contemporary Christianity. This is the GOSPEL folks.
“Father, my dear brother, learn of Christ, even Christ the Crucified! Learn to sing His praise and despairing of yourself, say to Him: You Lord Jesus are my righteousness, but I am your sin. You have taken what was in me, and have given to me what I was not…Be careful never to endeavor to obtain such purity, that you no longer find yourself a sinner, much less desire to be one. Christ dwells only among sinners. This is why he descended from heaven, when He dwelt among the righteous, so also to make His dwelling among sinners. Take note of this His love time and again and you will experience the sweetest consolation… And so only in Him, through having despaired of yourself and your works, will you find peace. Here you will learn from Christ Himself, that He, as He has received you unto Himself, has made your sins His own, and His righteousness your righteousness.”Did you get that? Don’t desire or acquire anything that will take away from you the knowledge of WHO YOU REALLY ARE. This is the key to the Gospel and its power, and the reason we live in a Christianity devoid of power.
A Tates Creek Prayer Board can be found here.
In my opinion, this is the best of all possible endings to a strange and sad story. God bless baseball in Washington, D.C. I can think of no town that needs it more.
I don’t usually get a lot of negative mail. I mean very, very little. But I got a bit today, and it is all from Rick Warren’s church. I wonder why it is impossible for people to see that just because someone is ____________________ (good thing), it doesn’t mean they are right about everything, or above challenge or criticism. It’s just odd. Of course, when I criticize Dr. Piper in an essay complimenting him, I get critical mail about that, too. I sound like I’m whining.
Kurt: That is what I figured, but its hard not to take something, which is so emphatic, literally. Admittedly, however, I don’t know near as much about Luther as a Christian should know about an important figure in church history.
Michael: How would one get into this Wine Cellar?
Brandon: You’d have to understand a bit about Luther to be comfortable with this quote. He liked to rattle cages. My take is that he’s basically saying “better to be a bold sinner and to know you’re in need of grace, than to fool yourself into thinking that you’re not a wretch and in no need of saving apart from your works.”
“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin…. Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.” -Martin Luther
While I agree with most of the quote from the banner, this disturbs me a little. I am a sinner, and I do sin. But this sounds almost like a command to sin. In fact, it almost sounds like he’s saying, “Go on sinning so that grace may abound.” Isn’t there a problem in this, or is it not meant to be taken literally?
Thanks Russell. I appreciate the plugs on your blog.
I also like Mark Horne more and more all the time.
“It seems to me that, for all the emphasis hammered into my head in seminary to do careful exegesis and appreciate the redemptive-historical flow of the Bible, there is strong social pressure in the PCA to treat certain portions of Scripture as a manual on the inner workings of a person undergoing conversion. Actually, we can be more specific: to treat them as a manual on the inner workings of the mind of a Roman Catholic undergoing conversion to Protestant soteriology.”Magic book!!! Now…if i can just get people to admit that the Bible is a cookbook.
I am weeping.
Read this story in the extended comments. Then go back and read the whole piece. More »
Michael,
Thanks for reminding me why I keep coming back. For me, shedding the lie that you speak of starts with embracing the sickness of humanity, and the depressing things this world has to offer. Only after fully eradicating the lie with all this junk can I then learn how to receive the gospel and experience its joy. I’m in process, but this stage of the process is a chemotherapy of sorts. That might explain why I reacted the way I did about the happiness discussion.
OK. Let me start out by saying that I don’t have to defend myself from anyone’s impression that I am promoting a joyless Christianity. I’m a Christian Hedonist. I wrote this essay. Even though recent events are depressing, I have not lost my Joy, because Joy cannot lose me. The freakin’ Red Sox are enough to keep me going. (BTW- I absolutely believe that baseball is a joyous antidote to depression, and I will argue that case with anyone.)
Should anyone feel guilty about being happy? Depends on where your happiness comes from, and how you deal with it. Do I feel guilty that someone is miserable and I am sitting here contemplating lemon chicken, a good book and the Reds getting clobbered by the Cubs? No, not really. But then, I have taken note of happiness and unhappiness. I have measured both (as the writer of Ecclesiastes recommends) and I can take my happiness with gratitude to God. In the meantime, I pray that everyone else finds as much happiness as they can.
I just visited a woman who is recovering from a hip replacement and broken femur. She has a 35 year old retarded daughter. Her husband abused her and abandoned her years ago. Her mother was the cruelest, meanest woman in these parts. This woman’s life has been terrible. Almost all of it. Do I feel guilty in her presence about the fact that I am fat, sassy, married, loved and blessed? No, but I am feeling her world as part of mine. It tempers my happiness, and it sweetens it.
It is profoundly Christian to say that Joy is born in a world of sorrow. It is profoundly Christian to believe that Incarnation and Easter wrap themselves, like the kiss in my essay, around the pain of the world. It is profoundly Christian to reject false joys and imitation happiness.
If my happiness is founded on ignoring the pain around me, tuning out the cries for community, turning a deaf and stoney ear to the human experience of disappointment and brokenness, then I should feel guilty. If my happiness is found in taking the gifts that God gives into this broken world, and plunging my quest for Joy into God’s joy, then multiplying my Joy in sharing with others, then I have every right to be happy.
I would urge my fellows in the tavern to consider how much of the happiness evangelicalism is selling is a LIE. A complete and total LIE, based upon some magic book and magic rituals. It isn’t the joy of the canoe trip or the well-made photograph. It isn’t the joy of good, married sex or a beer with friends. It isn’t the joy you feel in embracing a fellow sinner. It isn’t the joy of a walk in the woods or the smell of good food. No- evangelicalism is selling the false happiness of religion. Get high on music. Solve your problems with scripture verses. Get on the bandwagons. Live the “good Christian life.” Buy the Jesus junk. Get on the hamster wheel and run.
May I translate? LIE to yourself and everyone else about how you really feel. IGNORE the parts of the Bible that plunge us into real human experience. ERASE the trail of real saints who carried their depravity with them to the cross every day. BUY the goodies. JOIN the system. FOOL yourself. CLAIM what you wish was true.
Of that joy, I say….may they all feel miserably guilty. May they be haunted with Haiti, nursing homes, suicides, poverty, child abuse, neglect of children and starvation. But if your JOY is the joy of the incarnation (I wanted to say Cake, but I’m in deep enough) then have no guilt. Take your Joy into the world and make a difference.
I don’t think Michael’s piece is depressing. I just wanted to add a different perspective.
Michael: I think you have knocked it out of the park with those two essays. Excellent stuff.
I also don’t think you’ve said anything depressing or disheartening. I look at it like knowledge: it seems the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don’t know.
It’s an irony: becoming smart is not a matter of knowing everything; it’s a matter of realizing the depth of your stupidity and ignorance. Only through that awakening process can a person, in my opinion, even begin to call himself intelligent. But that’s not depressing, or at least shouldn’t be. Because once I discover that there are libraries full of stuff I don’t know, I can dive into it and learn as much of it as I possibly can. The fact that I’ll never get it all doesn’t detract from the joy of the quest and the thrill of the goal: knowledge.
Similarly, I cannot really begin to know the full joy of my salvation until I get some kind of grip on the nature of my brokenness and weakness. Once I do, I can fully emerse myself—joyfully—in the quest and the goal: Christ and His love and forgiveness.
Kurt: Right, except for the cornbread part. I agree with the stuff that’s been said about brokenness. I just wanted to add a little balance, lest our overwhelming readership think we’re all down in the dumps. Perhaps I don’t dwell enough on how yucky I am. Speaking of dark days, last night the Red Sox clinched a playoff spot, so I have several dark days ahead in the next month, lest I be exalted above measure.
Bill: Good points, except for the cornbread part. I’m sorry for whatever they have up where you live, but you need to come down here so you can learn to appreciate the goodness that is cornbread. Then again, you’re a trumpet player who doesn’t like jazz, so what does that say for your taste? I won’t even go into bluegrass.
I don’t think there was ever an undercurrent of misery or depression, even in Michael’s weightiest stuff. Certainly, we make a mistake if we try to tell ourselves that it all sucks. Just the same, we will all experience dark days. Every single one of us.
The more we become honest with who we are in light of the cross of Jesus, the more we will be horrified at the blackness of our souls. Yet, all the while, the more reason we will be given to rejoice at the grace found in Jesus. Acknowledging and wrestling with our broken, fallen state should, in the end, spring anew greater joy.
for being happy. I had a long post written, but I shelved it. Phillip talked me into posting something like it. I agree with Michael’s last article and I think it is needed. I didn’t want to post because I thought it would be seen as disagreeing with the article, which is not the case. That being said, and in the interest of a different perspective, I hope we don’t swing too far in the other direction, away from a zombie-like facade of “everything’s great” Christianity to an equally untrue (I hope) picture of Christianity as one miserable disappointment after another. I don’t agree that we have to look at ourselves as scum (I’m not sure anyone here has voiced it that way) or as toe-jam in the smelly foot of eternity. I don’t think God looks at us that way. We have value. We’ve at least got sparrows beat, hands down.
I’m happy. I like life, and living. I look forward to the next day, week, month, and year. Surely I’m not the only one? If I could take a pill and live for another 500 years, I’d pop it right down. I’m in no hurry to die. I’m in no hurry to get to heaven. I have friends who are only just biding their time until they get to heaven. I can’t see from that perspective. I don’t get it. Maybe I haven’t suffered enough. I would point out that I am a Red Sox fan, a husband, a father, a Southern Baptist, my wife likes country music, and I’ve had cornbread, so I know a little about suffering.
Michael is right. We need to know that we aren’t alone. In our suffering, and in our rejoicing.
Michael: Your posts are excellent, and they make me glad that I’m a pretty happy-go-lucky guy, having left behind depressed and suicidal thoughts when I exited my teens. :-)
To Know We’re Not Alone. New post at ms.us.
I can’t remember what y’all were talking about, but here’s my problem with “Christian themed fiction” or “Christian themed music” or whatever. What makes a book “Christian” seems to be a moral story. Someone commits adultery then they get caught, repent, and restored, or get caught, and pay the price for their sin. Somehow that’s supposed to teach us “don’t commit adultery.” And somehow people think that’s the “Christian message.”
Bullsh**
That’s not Christianity, that’s legalism, works based religion, and impossible to maintain. The parables aren’t about how you need to keep oil in your lamp (virgins), how you shouldn’t go a carousin’ round the world (prodigal), how you need to forsake everything to buy the kingdom (treasure in field), how you need to sell everything to buy the kingdom (pearl of great price). The parables are about the work JESUS did. HE keeps oil in the lamp. HE is the fatted calf slaughtered on your behalf. HE sold everything and forsook everything to purchase us.
A truly Christian themed story would paint the main character as a scumbag, who even though he is a scumbag is still loved, accepted, and kept by his Beloved. Whether he becomes less of a scumbag or not is irrelevant, and if the whole story is about how he cleans up his life, it misses the Christian message by a million miles. Moralizing isn’t Christianity. Christianity is for the broken, downtrodden, sick creeps who can’t get it right no matter how many times we try. “Christian fiction” tends to be more fiction than Christian, speaking of someone who fails 3 times then tries one more time and succeeds. That’s a total crock of baloney. Maybe it’s simply named appropriately.
This message brought to you by a BNAT influenced nutjob.
Michael: Wish I could take credit. It’s really funny, tho. I read it a few months ago…
Scott: Whoo hoo! Hilarious and awesomely creative. Free beer for a month!
PWinn: Among the problems I am having here…..Just AMONG (I love that word….”among…among…..among…)
1) I’ll start with some agreement. Yeah, Calvinists tend to turn Biblical theology into a philosophical system. I agree and it is not a good thing. But I don’t think that is part and parcel of Calvinism any more than any other flavor of Christianity. There are books by every variety of Christian that start from a philosophical base. I agree that isn’t where scripture starts, but I simply cannot agree that any conception of Christianity that begins with a philosophical consideration of God is wrong because it is leaving out the incarnation. Incomplete? Doomed to hit the wall without Christ and revelation? Absolutely. No problem agreeing there. But I believe there is a philosophical case for God, but a purely philosophical quest will never get us to the Gospel.
2) Piper’s theology starts with the Trinitarian God. He begins with the Father’s eternal delight in Himself via the Son. Uh….where did he learn that? I’m not quite sure that a secular philosopher would feel that Piper deserted the incarnation to get to that point.
3) My biggest problem is that the statement seems to lean toward one of two things: either a bald-faced denial of the place of general revelation, which I can’t buy because scripture tells me that all persons can know considerable truth about God through general revelation (but not the Gospel,) or a kind of sophism where, eventually, we just say that all knowledge is eventually understood as a manfestation of the second person of the Trinity revealing God (which I agree with totally.) If that’s the case, what is the disagreement? It’s a word game.
4) I agree that all other ways of knowing God will fall short of revealing God in the Gospel. I’m not sure I can agree that all other ways of knowing God leave us with a wrathful God. Buddhism? Pantheism? I don’t see it. Philosophies can end up with a God who is distorted in dozens of different ways.
5) When I read the statement, I think of Paul’s Mars Hill sermon. The God they worshipped in ignorance….he proclaimed in the Gospel. That is really where I think all this goes. But how is Piper on the wrong road? He starts with the Trinitarian God we know through Jesus, not the God of philosophical God of speculation.
Sometimes I feel like Lutheran epistemology is this: We sit in a church pew, listening to the Gospel in Word and Sacrament, and THAT’S what we can know.