At the evangelical fellowship meeting we watched Hotel Rwanda. If you haven’t seen it, go do so. Then make everyone in your church watch it, too.

Also, I ask your all’s prayers for the leader of my favorite church in Louisville’s mission in Sierra Leone (his name is James); he has fallen very ill, and is in very serious condition.

Here Joel…Tom Ascol’s post on the PowerTeam will finish you off.

See, this is why I like Josh. I should edit that post….but it’s just too good.

Friday Football Club. You need to start one. A great way to spend a fall evening.

Tomorrow, journey to Newport, Ky. When I was a kid, it was a mafia town. Now it’s a tourism hub. We go to deliver Clay to his new sweetie, hopefully visit Ryan, and to fine wifi so I can live blog the whole thing. Oh yeah…German food. That’s the main deal.

Tommy: What are you doing in Phillip Winn’s back yard?

Kent: Please add this no-children-in-the-service outrage that Annie and Tommy experienced as yet another reason why that Ed Young character scares me.

So tell me, in the Greek NT, why is there no word for “only” and why is the word for “also” bracketed with notes that it’s omitted in a bunch of witnesses?

Matthew, Did you happen to see the comments of the NET Bible translators regarding the presence of “also” (kai):

I think whether or not the “also” was dropped or added, the text is still a great statement of what Kingdom life is, and your interpretation is dead on. And considering the very next verse is “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,” (that is one of selflessness and humility), verse 4 is definitely no less of a challenge even if Paul did write “but also..”

Daniel, I absolutely, with lowered hackles, agree that all denominations are as you say.

This is helpful in deciding what (and when) to confess.

Philip, what I was trying to say was that, effectively, if you’re not aware of committing a mortal sin, you haven’t. You have to be fully aware of what you’re doing to commit a mortal sin, and that’s the point.

Brandon, welcome.

I don’t mean, Kent, to get your hackles up, but I do think that most (if not every) denomination does get more specific than that. The Reformers did, the Fathers did. I think it’s pretty important to know, and I think Paul, in his exhortations in Ephesians especially, tells us that reflection and edification on these points is to be sought, not spurned.

Michael, re: the Willard quote, I dunno. Am I wrong in thinking that the quote nearly says that Jesus came because of the law?

I’ve found these products to be of great utility in my walk with Jesus. (jn)

I am TRYING to pay better attention to my children on the two days the BHT becomes spontaneously extremely prolific!

Just to state again after y’all have had a good look at FC, Ed Young Jr.’s church is the one that would not allow our three year old into the service with us.

Now I will resume catching up on all this great converstaion.

You know, the book of Genesis once took the Myers-Briggs. It found out that it was JEPD.

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Here is a wonderful John Piper quote:
“I really believe that the problem of not knowing our spiritual gifts is not a basic problem. More basic is the problem of not desiring very much to strengthen other people’s faith. Human nature is more prone to tear down than it is to build up. The path of least resistance leads to grumbling and criticism and gossip, and many there be that follow it. But the gate is narrow and the way is strewn with obstacles which leads to edification and the strengthening of faith. So the basic problem is becoming the kind of person who wakes up in the morning, thanks God for our great salvation and then says, “Lord, O how I want to strengthen people’s faith today. Grant that at the end of this day somebody will be more confident of Your promises and more joyful in Your grace because I crossed his path.” The reason I say becoming this kind of person is more basic than finding out your spiritual gift, is that when you become this kind of person the Holy Spirit will not let your longings go to waste. He will help you find ways to strengthen the faith of others and that will be the discovery of your gifts. So let’s apply ourselves to becoming the kind of people more and more who long to strengthen each other’s faith.”

I’m scanning in all of my film from my trip to Nepal. I came across this beauty tonight. Yes that’s me, and yes that is what you think it is growing wild.

Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

So tell me, in the Greek NT, why is there no word for “only” and why is the word for “also” bracketed with notes that it’s omitted in a bunch of witnesses? It looks as though it should read “Let each of you look not to his own interests, but to the interests of others.” Sounds a little more Sermon on the Mount-ish that way.

My guess is that it’s too hard to follow that teaching.

It’s a part of the Scripture I’m preaching on this Sunday. I’ve been greatly challenged this week by the SotM which is funny because I know that it came up in here during the week, also. To my ears, it sounds like Jesus is saying that life in the Kingdom is way different than the life we’ve constructed. It’s not a pleasant tune to the sinner’s ear but you’d better learn to hum along because when the Kingdom ultimately comes, this is the song we will sing.

That whole “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” is quite a kick in the balls when you’ve had the month I have.

Hi Brandon. I don’t understand. Being a newlywed with no time for blogging? ;-)

Due to my Myers-Briggs type of FUBAR, I’ll throw down along with Brandon and Joel. I’ve never even had Krispy Kremes, and probably never will. What’s the big deal? It’s a donut! I don’t even like donuts anyways, so you’re all wrong. OK, enough of this. Time to tap into the collective unconscious.

Welcome back, Brandon!

It was interesting to find out from my site that my little corner of the Church is straight out of the pits of Hell, as well as that Episcopalians are officially pro-abortion. I think I missed that memo from our strongly pro-life Archbishop of Canterbury.

Anyway, Phillip, private confession is both practiced and encouraged at my Episcopal church, but, then again, we’re Anglo-Catholics. I’m kind of surprised to hear (or well, see implied) some don’t allow it at all – I always thought there was the “All may, some should, none must” rule, but then again, my very-low Church experience is slim. :: continues to be shocked by the horror stories (to an AC) I hear from my friend in Ireland about the Anglican Church there. They might as well be Baptists. (JN. Is that the right one?) ::

I’m going to try going to the evangelical fellowship at Penn tonight; it should be interesting.

I miss Krispy Kreme.

In my tiny-Baptist-church Sunday School growing up, the teacher always told us that works were hard and faith was easy. I think that may be the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. Perfection in faith, or desire, or any other source or definition of salvation, is no less an impossible and tyrannous requirement than a perfection of action. So, I’m with Michael when he says “If there is a way to fail ANY test of what faith is supposed to be, I will fail it… My faith is a failure. Christ’s grip on me is not. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.”

I haven’t thoroughly thought this through, but I really tend to see salvation more as an eschatological category. Yes, it involves perfect faith, perfect works, perfect desire – but it’s where we’re going, not where we are or have come from (which isn’t to say it isn’t anticipated in the present, but only, perhaps, in the imperfect way the Church itself anticipates the coming Kingdom of God).

Dang – Brendan’s not here for one day and I already have to go Billy Blanks on him. Dunkin Fauxnuts is better than Krispy Kreme? Puh. Lease.

Jim – Nope. No significant female in sight yet. I’ll stop here before I do a Josh-ish rant on this situation…

Borg QotD, Individuality vs. Conformity – see Romans 12.

Dale, you’re old…Ayn Rand right?

Kurt writes “Is this [Dumbledore Is Not Dead!] our generation’s version of “Frodo Lives!”?”

Perhaps.

I prefer “Who is John Galt?” :)

Michael, am I allowed to declare a fatwa on Brandon for his Krispy Creme blasphemy? Can I? Can I?

I had to take one of those personality tests at work, and I apparently have the same personality type as Margaret Thatcher…whatever that means. I’m not British.

Jung was a head case. We had to take the Myers Briggs at work. My type is Cancer. I like long walks by the beach and puppies.

Robes, vestments, smells, bells, kneeling, bowing, ...

I want all of it. I think I need all of it. I’m tired, bone tired, of the marketing mentality that is driven by giving people what they want. Dress down, pastor Pete. Robes, clericals, suits, shirts with ties make you stand out. It makes us uncomfortable for you to look different than we the unchurched do on the weekends (and it is the weekend, isn’t it?).

The Rolling Stones have better theology than this. “You can’t always get what you want…” In fact, church should “feel” different than a ball game, a concert, or the mall because it’s not supposed to be giving you what you want. It’s supposed to be giving you what you need.

This trend reminds me of the immigrant cultures who change their names, their dress, and their customs to blend in with the majority culture. Don’t want to stand out. You might make the natives of your host country think you’re ungrateful by continuing in your traditional ways. Forget your history. You can make your own history now.

Mystery? Makes people uncomfortable. Jesus is your buddy. And whatever you do, don’t let there be any dead air. When it happens on the radio, people want to change the channel. Let there be no silence in the church. Fill every space, every moment with sanctified Muzak. If there’s silence, people might forget that this is all for them. God is at our disposal.

Update: Ahhhh, THANK you Tommy. I’m glad someone captured my problem on video.

Brandon, what freaking planet are you from? Krispy Kreme donuts taste horrible? Wha? When you get them at the gas station, ehhhh, okay. But fresh Krispy Kreme donuts (HOT!) are literal ambrosia, life-giving food of the gods. DD coffee is excellent, however. Point taken. Score: -10¹⁰ for anti-Krispy Kreme remarks. 1 for DD coffee.

megachurches + marketing + no Jesus + culture warrior + FOTF + NAE + Haggard + Young + HB London quote + purpose-driven™ + justice sunday + theology of glory + revivals + tanks =

image courtesy of Google Image Search…

I’m probably about to offend all the Southerners in the bar, but I am going to declare with authority that Krispy Kreme donuts taste horrible and do not compare to the wonderful deliciousness of Dunkin’ Donuts. DDs coffee is top notch as well.

In a nod of mourning to the Canadians here, I heard recently that Tim Horton’s has started using frozen donuts instead of fresh made. My condolences. Timmy’s was always a highlight to my Canada trips.

Happy birthday, Kurt!

Richard: Krispy Kreme donuts aren’t dipped, they’re rolled along a conveyor belt through a glaze-fall (think “waterfall”).

Marketing: I’m struck yet once again by the difference in terminology between the New Testament (which talked a lot about “persuading” people) and the current North American maketing/sales approach. It makes me want to vomit.

Bill: Yeah, I got cleared from the blogroll about a year ago for no posting. That was mainly due to dating a girl (whom I’m married to now) and having a job that had no free time. Now that I have a better job and am married, I have found that I am more than ready to get back to blogging.

And I LOVE this blog. I’ve been lurking for a long time, and I’d like to contribute.

Update: 45 minutes. No Jesus or Gospel in sight. Not a single word. I have learned, however…

1) The Bible reverses our depravity.
2) God pours grace into us through the Bible and enables us to live a righteous life.

Now isn’t that special?

Ahh….there’s the prayer. A totally Christless message. The Bible saves us. Switch Bible with Koran and it would work in any mosque.

Douglas: I forget, are you married? Because my wife is an ISTJ, but she claims I drove her to it.

Michael – no, you aren’t the only one. I had to endure a sermon like that in one of the churches I visited here. A forty-minute lecture on the attribute of the divine glory of God the Father. Zippo about Christ.

If it weren’t for their knee-jerk trinitarianism (at least when directly questioned), I’ve suspected that some ADG types would make excellent Muslims. Christ seems to be pretty peripheral to their life and ethics anyways…

Joel – community holds the individual and whole in dynamic tension. The collective conforms the individual to the archetype.

Which one is evangelicalism? I have my answer. And it’s related to the fact that I’m an ISTJ – truly the red-headed stepchild of American Christian personality types.

Matthew: I’m an ENFP. So I know how you feel, but I think you should get out more.

Doug: What does Dobson/FotF want the church to be? A consumer of product and a salespoint for a product, i.e. their view of culture/morality. The Gospel would put them out of business. It’s the parachurch dictating to the church what it should be.

Well, if Dumbledore is a Gandalf rip-off, it would make sense that he’s not dead. Gandalf came back from the dead, you know… (SW)

That London quote blows me out of the water. This comes from a guy in an organization that wants to be our political voice in Washington. On the one hand, they want to have political mandates for our system of morality. Yet their spokesman seems to think we have to market the Gospel.

This is what you get when you divorce Christian ethics from the Christian faith and the Christian community. You get Culture-Warrior/Car Salesmen.

We live in strange times…

I’m listening to the sermon of a major iMonk/BHT critic (no one well known anywhere).

We’re into thirty minutes with no mention of Jesus. Not even tangentially. Not even, like, emergent church mentions of Jesus. Theology. Calvinism. Name Dropping Fundamentalism. Shouting. Predestination. Perfections. No Jesus. No Jesus anywhere. Could be a Muslim at this point. Arians have better theology.

Are God’s nature and attributes Good News without Jesus?

Am I the only one who notices this?

Dale:

Is this our generation’s version of “Frodo Lives!”?

Talk about a downward slide. ;)

Brandon was gone?

Oh, for crying out loud, Wyman. I could already feel the pressure building after all this Ed Young talk, and then you have to go and drop that quote so that my head could go ahead and explode. No duct tape warning, thx. Do the Shinto accept converts who are missing their heads?

Borg QOTD: What is the difference between a collective and a community?

Plato’s argument for the immortality of the soul assumed the doctrine of reincarnation. If you were a decent chap (the bonnie lasses were a different story altogether), led a virtuous life and got along with your neighbors, then you would come back in the next life as a pleasant sociable creature, like an ant or a wasp. I suppose we should update Plato’s theory to include generic evangelicals with the ants and wasps.

Of course, only philosophers got to escape the cycle and remain with the gods, duh.

If you’ve never read the CT interview with Eugene Petersen we keep on the sidebar, you owe it to yourself to read it. I can gurantee you it will make any market driven pastor you know explode.

John Granger rocks!

For an incredible site, see Dumbledore Is Not Dead!

Especially check out the differences between the UK edition and the US edition: http://dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html

The difference between selling a product and proclaiming Jesus and the Gospel is the difference between the movement Jesus’ began and what you see going on in the name of Jesus today.

The shift from preachers to entrpreneurs must be the devils’ delight. The unmitigated crap I’ve heard in the name of this makes me want to stick ice picks in my ears.

A seminary trained, D.Min from SBTS once preached on Acts 2, and said that God sent the wind and tongues of flame to draw a crowd. From that logic, he then laid out what the church was going to do to draw a crowd. This is the same guy who told the older members to find another church if they didn’t like these changes. These are the “shepherds” we now have in evangelicalism. God help us.

That quote makes me sick. If I ever leave the pastoral ministry it will be because of the HB Londons of this world. Maybe I should be packing it in right now!

Michael, somehow or another I have managed to miss that picture. That, my friend, is classic.

Such experts have an outstanding view.

I hope Mr. London writes a whole book on what he sees from there.

Didn’t know if any of you saw this in the recent Christianity Today or not. It’s from H.B. London, Jr., V.P. of Pastoral Ministries at Focus on the Family. Ready? Here you go:

“Nearly every pastor is a salesman or a marketer of one kind or another because…we have a philosophy to sell. The best marketers and best salesmen will have more converts, will have more people, will take in more money.”

Nice. Very nice.

I was discipled by a guy who was discipled by Ed Young, Jr before he started fellowship church. I wonder if I’m on their church’s membership roll without knowing it?

And no, I don’t even know what “discipled” means anymore, but I’m pretty sure it happened to me once.

Matthew, that should read “I somehow feel that you should leave me alone”.

Confession time?

I’m an INFP, also, Kent.

Now leave me alone!

Thank you Richard, you put into words what I sense in my heart.

I had an interesting thought when I looked at the image of the Borg ship that Michael posted. It reminds me of the modern evangelical church in that there is no consideration of the aesthetic, I would not want to be on that ship. In the same way I have no desire to enter most church buildings.

My parents took Laurie and I to a Christmas program at the Crystal Cathedral many years ago…I was horrified.

Seriously folks, this is pragmatism as takeover. Everything Richard mentions is essential to this. Out do the rest of the church. Market until you are the only one in the game. Rework everything into your image, and image is everything. Use technology to make it impossible for any teenager or young person to conceive of any other church. Be mega cool on cultural terms. Explicitly say: “It’s all about you.” (See latest book.)

This is the evangelical borg. The whole market-driven movement is about who will WIN and winning means playing the game better than the next guy….and eventually turning his building into your middle school video room.

I have no doubt that doctrinally, much is right here. I have no doubt that when you look at missions on the ground, much is right here. But for ecclesiology, this is a disaster of untold porportions. It changes the church. It hurts- yes, hurts- the church. Megachurches cannot do what small church saturation does. The megas grow. The saturation of congregations throughout a culture drops.

Let the megas be the megas. But the “borg-mentality” is destructive to the church, and it will be responsible for massive changes in American Christianity, almost all bad.

Kent: Let me put it this way. I don’t know Mr. Young and so I probably shouldnt call him “scary”. I’m sure he’s a good Christian man, a brother. Therefore I apologise

However, in browsing the many websites related to Mr. Young I find these things (in no particular order) troubling and, yes, scary

1. The “marketing” approach to just about everything, from evangelism to marriage to worship to the sacraments.

2. The impression given that what he does is the way to do it and could/should be replicated everywhere (this also applies to Warren but it doesn’t seem quite as crass as this)

3. The theology of glory as in statements like this: Take a journey to the heart of God during Fellowship Church’s Emergent Service. Join Ed Young and the FC Music Team on the first Wednesday of each month for an explosive worship experience – fusing the power of music, the passion of prayer, and the performance of communion. Don’t miss this time to refocus your life and find a fresh incentive to live a life of worship 24-7.

Take a journey to the heart of God? (I won’t comment. See Horton’s book: In the Face of God)

Join Ed Young… (what if he’s not there? Will the Lord still be there? Has any generation of Christians ever promoted it’s leaders as much as ours?)

The performance of communion… Performance???

Lauren Winner meditates on the continuing meaning of her Wiccan tattoo.

Josh: All that equipment is illegal at seminary. Ukeleles are legal, however. Rock on with Don Ho.

Oprah has found a good name for her new book. It seems strangely familiar.

Josh: You are the Lutheran shred-king. Rock on, bro!

Resistance is futile….if you know what I mean. (And I hope you do.)

When I look at him I think two things, Kent: Hair plugs and plastic surgery.

Richard, what specifically do you see about Ed Young that you find ‘scary’?

I love this quote from the article Richard linked about Peterson:

Now why do people go to a church like that when they can go to a church that has a nursery, is air conditioned, and all the rest? Well, because they’re Lutherans. They don’t mind being miserable! Norwegian Lutherans!

HA!

I read a couple of Peterson’s books within the first two months of ministry here. I am rereading them and finding that a lot of what he writes resonates with me spiritually. The intro to Working the Angles was a difficult read for me because it asked me to honestly evaluate what I am doing. It wasn’t a pleasent, ahem, introspection ;-)

I even found him helpful as I tried to answer a question for my ordination board that I presented yesterday. I posted it here.

Kent says: “We’re developing a culture wherein nobody’s deeper than a Hummer salesman.”

Amen!

Brandon, well hobbits are better than Harry, in my opinion, but definitely not as quick a read and not as fast-paced. I’d also like a scarf, and maybe a cool cloak as well.

Book 6 does rock, no question about it. Happy reading!

Travis: I see what you mean now. I’ve seen that book in Barnes and Nobles but never read it. Caution is my middle name now that I am done with book 5 and have not yet read book 6, which I hear is knee deep in good plot. I decided to take a break from Harry and try hobbits again.

Now if I can just get my wife to knit my a Harry Potter-like scarf…

Re: The Emergent Service at “Fellowship Church”, to the market-driven church such an approach makes sense. Look for ‘perceived needs’ and develop a program to fill it. The spin doctors get to work and overlay their version of non-nutrative substance with what they perceive to be the most current ‘style’ of frosting. We’re developing a culture wherein nobody’s deeper than a Hummer salesman.

And this is the dream of so many pastors…

Richard, I bet that Josh has a link ;-]

Joel, what they don’t mention is that they go out for TexMex before the “Explosive Worship Experience”.

Rick Warren is not my cup of tea but I think I’m 90% ok with him. This Ed Young guy, on the other hand, just scares the heck out of me.

And yes, Matthew, I’ll take Eugene Peterson over either of them any day. His pastoral wisdom is vast.

Brandon: No – John Granger. but if you don’t like theologizing over it, you might not like Granger so much. but give him a listen. it’s all about the symbols and the english literature tradition.

Travis: John Granger? Perhaps I need to read the sixth one. I just finished “Order of the Phoenix” a couple of days ago, which I throughly enjoyed, despite its length. I thought that the fight scene at the end (between Harry and L. Malfoy) wasn’t the most believable, but I think it sufficed. Albus Dumbledore is an absolutely great figure, but if you can’t see Gandalf the Grey in Dumbledore, you’re blind. I think Harry can be a bit in derivative at times, but I love it nonetheless. I don’t try to justify reading HP by theologizing over it. The stories don’t seem that conducive to it, other than ethics lessons. I just love the books! Can’t I read them for that purpose a la “wretched urgency”!

Oh, and Van Morrison is awesome.

This should make Josh happy (JN) Crispus Cremus – comparing baptism to Krispy Kreme doughnuts. It has something to do with being dipped in the goodness of Christ just like KK doughnuts are dipped in that sugary glaze

Better yet you can listen to the talk here – delivered (verbatim?) by another pastor elsewhere who, apparently, bought the kit. It’s wretched stuff!

Where do I sign up for Lutheranism?

Join Ed Young and the FC Music Team on the first Wednesday of each month for an explosive worship experience.

I’m notifying Homeland Security.

But Ed, how’d you get that tank up there on the stage (think Ray Stevens and that Shriner’s song)?

I’m rereading some of Eugene Peterson’s work on Pastoral Ministry. Great stuff. I’ve been taking a long hard look at what I am doing and I don’t like it. It’s so fake. The link above highlights this for me.

Well, as someone with distinct Emergent sympathies, all I can say is that I ain’t impressed. The three pictures in the link Michael posted seem to depict a rock concert. And how on earth do you do Communion with a crowd like that? It would take hours to get them all to the Table and back. And BTW, where is the Table?

I suppose I can grant that weekly communion (done right) would be a great improvement in many churches. But slapping weekly communion onto a typical seeker-sensitive “worship service” does NOT qualify you as “emergent”...

OTOH, if the megachurches are starting to imitate us, there must be something about us after all, eh? (SW)

...fusing the power of music, the passion of prayer, and the performance of communion.

Surely there is a better word than performance? Or looking at the concert lights and pyro on the website maybe performance would be the best word.

Michael, I think you and I have the same secret source.

That’s certainly an odd-looking mutt.

Did you know I have “secret sources?” That’s right. Deep undercover all over America.

One of them just sent me this. The Ed Young, Jr. Frankenst…..Emergent Service. Which looks a lot like a big mega-church show attempting to grab the emergent name while it’s hot. Ed is now emergent. I guess since he emerges from tanks and stuff that is emergent…kinda.

Daniel, in the Christian life there is the reality of sin and the assurance of grace. Any religious system that attempts to speak additional ‘clarity’ into this truth tends to raise my hackles.

Welcome again Brandon!

I’m very thankful to have this statement to aid me in my understanding of sacramental thought…

By the way, the Lutherans (as do the Catholics) make baptism a SACRAMENT. The Bible only teaches baptism as an ordinance.

Reformissionary demolishes the fall-back arguments of the teetotalers, and backs them into a corner.

Tom: so long, man. (I guess that leaves me as the last “fightin’ ecumenist” in this bar. Want to start another discussion on the Supper, Josh? JN)

Dale: Cool. Mark it down to garbled communications.

Brandon: welcome back. Hang in there with LOTR. And if you need a good list of reasons why Gandalf is better than Dumbledore, go here. (Warning – the comments section is NOT family-friendly. Viewer discression is advised.)

Michael: Have you seen the book The Cube and the Cathedral?

When I Am Weak is the essay some of my lurkers need to read. It’s the emphasis that I think is most helpful in persevering in faith.

Welcome, Brandon! I’d like to hear more about your status as a Harry Potter fanatic. John Granger fan or no?

Tom, take care and enjoy your own blog, it’s on my bloglines list. What’s up with leaving now that you got your URL button to work?