One more thing: Bill, I’m listening to the May 23 audio of soli deo.  I can’t for the life of me figure out why you think Michael sounds funny.  Seriously.  Yankee.

In light of iMonk’s most recent post over at IM, I’d love to hear audio of him shout-preaching.  I can’t even fathom that.

Wow. The creek behind Michael’s house must REALLY be up.

This is the kind of stuff I do the day before I don’t have to preach.

Matthew: Spencer without his hat and sunglasses

Michael: I’ve met Rick Warren*, and you are no Rick Warren. More »« Less

Dennis, maybe you would prefer Michael dressed like this:

I thought Dolly was the first cloned mammal. Lies, Lies Lies!!! Imonk is the first clone!!! Who’d a thunk it? I appreciate the irony of the first human clone. Those scientists are awesome. Instead of using a sheepish looking guy, they used goat look-alike! Very Biblical!!!

Quit being rebellious Michael. Learn to wear hawiian shirts under your sport coats damnit!! I am less then impressed with your lack of appreciation for your father’s dress code. For goodness sake you need to learn to be more thankful!!! Your creator could have cloned you from this:

Possible Explanations:

1. Someone is stalking me, but can’t get my fine threads.
2. He’s my love child. Oh the 70’s were wild.
3. He’s following me, as I follow Christ.
4. Pasty old white guys look startingly alike.
5. A new WWE Tag Team is about to be announced.
6. I’m joining the staff at Saddleback.
7. Steve Taylor is making “I Want To Be A Clone” into a major motion picture.
8. Examine both pictures under ultraviolet and find the secret code phrase that reveals the secret society keeping the incredible secret that both Rick Warren and myself are part of the Priory of Zondervan, and are guarding the location of the only living descendents of Aimee Simple Macpherson.
9. Before and after pictures of the new John Haggee diet.
10. There’s a third picture where Pat Robertson is lifting both of us.

Holy (word deleted to placate the K-nig-its of Reformed Orthodoxy)!

Dale: That is too close a resemblance.

I think we’re dealing with some sort of parallel dimensional crossover here…

Marc over at Purgatorio shows that iMonk and Rick Warren are twins separated at birth.

http://purgatorio1.com/?p=397

Michael — what’s up with that?  :-)

I don’t know about Michael, but I’ll be right down. Can you put out some kind of food on the back porch and email the scent? I love a good steak soaked in Guinness. I should be there in about 4 weeks, assuming I don’t get dog-pounded on the way.

Hey ‘Spencer’, can we have you come speak to us?! Well . . . for free? That’s probably not what you were hoping for was it? We will serve you a nice one of these (so tasty!)

with some of this!

I hope God blesses this new turn in the road for you.

On the topic of fellowshipping with people we really like, we have started a new little home group at our house that is immensely enjoyable as well as edifying. One other couple comes over and puts their children to bed with ours. The gentleman is a beer and wine enthusiast who brings over a few new bottles or home brews every time. I furnish a dessert and the four of us sit around the table, last night sipping lambic with choc. covered strawberries as we discuss Nouwen’s “In The Name of Jesus”. Just delightful.

Nouwen’s book is perfect for us – very short chapters that very busy people can get done, yet his writing is so deep and so saturated in the teachings of Christ. We laughed, talked of wine, and even challenged, encouraged and comforted one another in real ways. I don’t think I have ever been to a more profitable small group ever.

“The need of the hour is to restore the five solas, and get them up out of the narrow crevice some follks have pushed them into. We need the five totas. Our answer to such things must be simple, and not complicated. The claims of Jesus Christ, Lord of heaven and earth, are necessarily and always total, never partial. The solo tendency always tends to restrict the work of God to just a part or portion of reality, and this makes the rest of reality incomprehensible—- and obviously complicated, with great “subtlety” required of those who seek to understand the godless part of the universe. But there is no godless part of the universe, and so to all this we reply with totus Christus (all Christ and all His people), tota gratia (to be a creature is grace, to be saved is more grace), tota fide (we are saved by faith from first to last), tota Scriptura (we do not pit the Old Testament against the New, or law against grace), and toti Deo gloria (all the glory for all things goes to God). God save us from all partialism.”

A hearty Amen! From a great Douglas Wilson post: Beyond the Five Solas

This just in from the IM newswire…..we go right to our correspondent on the scene, Van Til, the BHT’s Magic Tail-Chasing Dog…

Greetings everyone. Van Til here in St. Sadies, Maryland, deep inside the InternetMonk compound, with some big news. At a news conference today, Reformed Baptist pastors from all over North America gathered to make an announcment. We have the actual text, and I’d like to read it for you:

“As a result of studying the New Testament closely with our new Bibleworks 7 Computer Bibles, we have made the decision that some of our past teachings on church leadership have been in error. As a result of these new insights, we would like to announce that in addition to deacons and elders, our churches will now allow women to serve in the office of Bishop.

Having female bishops may seem like a bit of a radical change of course, but there’s no doubt that this can be a valuable ministry and the church at large needs it. Some of our members may have trouble adjusting to this change, but we’re confident that when the first female bishop is installed and sent on her first apostolic errand to clean up the churches, moderate comment threads and promote reading, everyone will get on board.

We particularly hope that our female bishops will be able to assist in the important ministry of discernment for the church at large. There are several people that need to be discerned as soon as possible, before they ruin everything.”

So that’s the shocking news folks. Pigs are flying and old dogs are learning new tricks. Reformed Baptists are going to have female bishops. I’m off to howl at the moon. Back to you, BHT.

NOTE: This is a ridiculous satire that I just made up.

There’s now a video of Pat Robertson leg-pressing 1,000 pounds.

Concordia Seminary has an interesting idea for a podcast.

I found some good posts on Dan Kimball’s website:

My Doctrinal Statement Can Beat Up Your Doctrinal Statement

The origin of the terms “emerging” and “emergent.” In case anyone wants to repair their woeful ignorance. Part 1 and Part 2

And finally, Carla called me “Spencer.” Is it just me, or is addressing someone directly by their last name rude?

Today I received my latest copy of The New Yorker in the mail.  I was anxious to see if they finally reviewed DVC:The Movie because I honestly cannot remember one positive movie review in that magazine.  Fortunately, the review is online and all can enjoy one of the funniest reviews I’ve ever read.  Here’s an excerpt:

[Robert Langdon] and Sophie visit a cheery old duffer in the countryside and spill every possible bean. In this case, the duffer is Sir Leigh Teabing (Ian McKellen), who lectures them on the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea, in 325 A.D. We get a flashback to the council in question, and I must say that, though I have recited the Nicene Creed throughout my adult life, I never realized that it was originally formulated in the middle of a Beastie Boys concert.

Tim Enloe quotes Mark Horne on a big question for Theology Wonks. Be sure and check out Mark’s original post, and keep up with the comments.

The other matter comes from the comments at this Jollyblogger post. Tim Challies challenges David Wayne to apologize for a hyperbole in his post on “Throwing Mark Driscoll Under The Bus.” David apologizes for the hyperbole- saying the “vast majority” of commenters were negative. Then I have a question in the comments.

You need to add me as a reference. You badly need some cross-denominational cred.

Mod: “Cross denominational cred.” There’s something that Southern Baptists can’t get enough of.

Kent: Joke, corrective, it’s all good.  I’m not going to bother changing it back.  I have faced scorn in the past for jobs I held, so I don’t want to sound like that even if that’s not what I meant.

Jumping off on a tangent, I was complaining once to my friend about simplistic, repetitive worship songs.  His wife, who works with developmentally disabled adults, said that those songs are good  because her clients can sing them.  I thought she had a good point, though I don’t think every song needs to be like that.

I just wrote a promotional piece I am sending out to pastors and friends who might be interested in having me speak. It’s shamelessly self-promotional, so if you already hate me, please don’t read it. And there are no pictures, so you can’t use it to scare anyone. But if you ever thought about having me come over and speak, this is the piece you probably want.

Michael Spencer Promotional Resume.

If this gets too obnoxious, let me apologize in advance. A little.

I’m not trying to sound like a jerk here- I mean, how hard do I need to work at that?- but is there anything more typically mid-life than for all of us to be talking about our career regrets?

When I lost my mind in my mid-life crisis of 2000-2001, I was lethally obsessed with regrets over my life. My career. My marriage. Ministry. Every decision I’d ever made rose up and pointed at me, saying “WRONG!” Of course, the life that seemed the best was writer. Thinker. Speaker. I spent vast amounts of time HATING my seminary classmates who are in big churches. I hated OBI, even though OBI saved my life and let me actually spend it on something significant. I declared Denise the enemy for making me think about money and security rather than doing what I wanted. I wrote so many poems on regret that I could have published an anthology. Happiness, career, relationships—- they all infected and tortured me for parts of two years.

One of the many things that helped me through this was to realize that as an American, I have an exaggerated view of the possibilities of my own happiness. I had bought deeply into the idea- promoted by all kinds of “success in life” types- that I should be maxed out on happiness, and if I wasn’t, then I could be immensely tortured with a really good excuse note.

It’s interesting how God showed this to me: the teenagers I work with have the raw material for immense amounts of happiness, but most of them are miserable, angry, bitter, depressed…all because they can’t have what they want. I preach to these kids about real happiness. I talk about reasonable happiness. I talk about connecting the dots between self-knowledge, choices and a workable definition of happiness.

I just didn’t want to apply any of this to myself. I wanted to be angry at God, Denise, fate, life, a thousands things in the past I could no longer get to….and I wanted to be self-consumed in the present. And, of course, to reward myself with the things that made me feel good.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe mid-life career changes are good and wonderful things when they are possible. But I also am growing to understand that I need to revise my definition of happiness into something Jesus would recognize. I really would like to see the sermon series on “Jesus and the mid-life American male.” I need to hear that word. Maybe I need to write that word.

Anyway…you twenty-somethings just shut up. Us old guys are crying in our beer and we don’t want to hear all this cheerful chat. (jn)

Mark, sorry I meant it more as a joke…not so much corrective as remembering that for some people Roto-Rooting is a high career asperation.

Kent: For the record:
I’m a full-time profession software developer, and have made my living as one since 1981. I had no formal post-secondary education in computer science when I began my career. The entirety of my college education credits in computer science consists of “credit from life experience.” I took the Myers-Briggs and Strong Interest Inventory tests two years ago. They revealed that the ideal matching careers for my personality type were:

• Professional Musician
• College Professor
• Writer or Journalist
• Forest Ranger

Final score, from this 45-year-old judge:

• Testing and Profiling: 4
• 20-year-old bible college drop out who wanted to get rich: 0

I would quit my job tomorrow if I had some assurance that my family would still be able to eat.

Real Live Preacher was remembering everybody’s favorite neighbor just the other day...

This is really quite cool. It’s a clip of Mr. Rogers appearing before a senate committee in 1969 to plead the case for public broadcasting. Whatever you may think of the PBS you must admit that there is just something about the passionate but quiet words of a humble man that just wins the day. I think the blogosphere needs more of Mr. Rogers. I think I need more of Mr. Rogers.

I would love to jump into the discussion on the pastoral life but I’m just plain too busy right now (isn’t that ironic?). Let me just say that this post by Michael gets it right. You can’t be Driscoll or Piper or CJ or Dever. You can learn stuff from there good people but you can’t try and be them or imitate them and expect similar results. You can only be you and only as you can you begin to minister to people. If God wanted Piper in your church He would get Piper there without you masquarading as him.

Kent: I was thinking more of applying the popular idea of “passion” to getting splattered daily by the Roto Rooter. No disrespect was intended. It’s a dirty job that needs to get done, and anyone who does it certainly earns their money.  Your point is well taken, and I modified my post.

Here are some worse jobs.

Just to be clear, I’m not putting down anyone’s job.  I’m talking about the idea that we should expect to be able to do what we are passionate about.  For example, sometimes I hear that you should find the place in the church that you are passionate about.  That way of thinking would mean a 200 person worship band, and nobody to pick up the trash.  Taking pride in a job well done can happen on any job, even if it’s not an activity which provides emotional fulfillment or self-actualization.  God is probably more glorified when we do the things that don’t excite us.

Mark, I really like a lot of what you have to say about work. I feel much the same way. As I know you’re also pursuing more education your thoughts made me think about how we often make the mistake in our culture of believing that the purpose of education is to prepare us for employment. Somehow I grew up understanding that the purpose of learning is to be learned…and that not wanting to grow up to be a historian didn’t mean that I didn’t need to learn and appreciate history.

I do suggest that you rethink your comment about the Roto-Rooter guy in the mental context of Forest Gump’s shrimpin’ buddy.

Bill: “Don’t be a pastor (preacher) unless you simply can’t imagine doing something else.”

Aye, there’s the rub. What else is there that’s worth doing? (rhetorical to many – I ask myself seriously quite often) Honestly, taking the cautionary tales of iMonk and Driscoll seriously, along with the advice of some trusted souls I’ve known a long time, the bi-vocational idea is starting to resonate with me.

Mark: If I had my way with the world (and I thank God that do not), I would have an odd vocation indeed. I would be a pastor, musician, author (oh to develop the craft of the wordsmith), and super-hero. OK, the last one’s silly, so I’ll settle for marial artist 8-)

When I first read your post, Bill, I thought it said, “Don’t become a pastor unless you can’t do anything else.”  That’s probably the advice many follow :-)

unless you simply can’t imagine doing something else.

I don’t have a desire to go into full-time ministry.  I’ve seen how hard that is.  Actually, what I want is to go back to being a professional guitarist, but I have gotten accustomed to feeding and clothing my kids, so I do data warehousing at an insurance company.  Taking a more Reformational perspective has helped me to see the value of my work, even if it’s not directly preaching the gospel.  God is honored by work done well, and I am in a situation that I wouldn’t be in if I was a preacher.  I often struggle being content where I’m at, but that’s what God’s wants.  You hear all the time about doing what you’re passionate about, both in the church at home.  Passion is very overrated.  Some things just need doing, and we glorify God by just doing them.  Some things don’t lend themselves to emotional “passion,” but doing them well can be satisfying itself. 

I’m reminded of a point my brother made.  If you play guitar, people say you have a call on your life, but they don’t say that to you if you’re an accountant.

So Dark the Con of Mac. (Ht to Amy W)

TSK stops worrying about the EC critics and blogs about Scottish Beer.

Clay has purchased the first two Alien movies, which he has never watched. He’s in his darkened room now. I remember watching Alien 1 in a theater. Great film.

Alastair has a Bible that would go perfect in a lot of SBC churches.

soli deo friend just returned from Tulsa. Her son tells her that movie employees at one theater reported groups of t-shirt wearing Christians (“The Jesus Code”) scattering in the theaters and at key points standing up and shouting “It’s a lie! It’s a lie!” crickets

I received a lurker question regarding my quotation of Os Guinness’ “Protestant Distortion”. My rememberance of this part of The Call was that he mentioned two “Distortions”, the “Protestant” and the “Catholic”.

My memory is that the “Catholic” was that there is a ‘higher, more spiritual’ life that is not served by living in the world but by living apart and that some were called to the ‘vulgar’ life and others to the ‘spiritual’ life.

My memory of the “Protestant Distortion” was that though the Reformation started out on Luther’s grounds that all vocations were spiritual callings, even the ‘plowman’s’; later Protestantism mimicked the Catholic Distortion by inventing something better than being a plowman called ‘full-time ministry’.

40+ year-old memories being what they are I may be wacked…is there anyone at the Tavern that can verify my memory or certify me as ‘wacked’?  Here’s Os discussing it a bit in an interview…

Jesus: Loud and annoying. Thanks you, Joe. How true and convicting.

As most of you know, last year I was savaged by a reformed watchblogger when I published a shocking confessional on the regrets I have about what full-time church ministry did to me and how I got into it. This watchblogger spent most of a month telling the world that I was a “fraud” and a “phony” for being in ministry, la la la, yada yada yada.

Driscoll’s “Death by Ministry” post describes the backside of the problem, but this BHT discussion is at least hinting at the front door. Let me describe that front door a bit, and why thousands of young men and women are led like lambs to the slaughter. (BTW, I write this having just learned that one of my favorite preachers, Barbara Brown Taylor, has left the ministry and possibly the orthodox Christian faith.)

Let me get into this with a list:

Ten Myths and Ugly Facts of Entering Full-Time Vocational Ministry

1) Full Time Ministry (FTM) is like John Macarthur’s career. Show up at a small church, preach expository messages sprinkled with your interpretations and views, and the congregation, by the power of the Holy Spirit, will roll over like a big dog and say, “rub my belly and I’ll get big.”
2) FTM is like Rick Warren’s career. Give the people what they want, especially in music and children’s programs, and you will have a huge church.
3) FTM is like Mark Driscoll’s career. Have a cool band, wear a choker, preach hardcore comedy expositions and soon 5,000 twentysomethings will be at your door.
4) FTM is like (generic SBC Texas Evangelist Guy). Be full of yourself, egotistical, witty, say “God told me” a lot and threaten people who disagree with you and you will have 10,000 people coming to hear you.
5) FTM is like Mark Dever’s church. Kick out 250 dead wood names on the roll, be Calvinistic, sing hymns and preach whole books in a couple of messages and your church will be full of young lawyers.
6) Continue to play this game with the hero of your choice. Keller. Mahaney. Piper. Be like them, and it will work at your church.
note All of this is crap. Thousands of pastors leaving the ministry are doing exactly what I am describing and the church is deleting their salaries and giving them luggage for a gift.
7) No one tells you that it’s all about church politics. You may think that you will be such a good preacher and will impose elder rule so that you and your buddies can run the church while laughing at church politics, but you are wrong.
8) No one tells you that money is going to matter. Money will be why people say Yes and No to everything. Money is why you won’t have the AV stuff you need. Money is why you won’t be able to buy your kids new shoes. Money is why your wife will have to work. Money is why you won’t get a raise unless you impose elder rule and you and your buddies all vote yourself one.
9) No one tells you that bi-vocational ministry is probably what you need to do, because most churches, if they are seriously missional, don’t need full time people. The dream of full-time ministry is great, but the expectations of full time ministers are incredible. When I hear some young buck say he needs to be full time so he can study for his expositional sermons 40 hours a week, I feel sorry for his people. It’s the Jonathan Edwards fantasy. I lock myself in my study, come out and see my wife and kids at mealtime, then have one hour of family time + sex at bedtime and get back to the study tomorrow. What they aren’t telling you is that your sermons are cheap currency compared to hanging out with people, talking to them, visiting them, being part of their lives. Your family won’t survive like this, and shouldn’t. If you are going to be full time, get out of the building.
10) Temperamentally, the ministry is not for people who live and die by the daily poll numbers, the last phone call or the numbers that show up this week as compared to last. It’s a long term business for long term visionaries. That’s one reason to read Driscoll’s “Confessions.” He makes it clear what it takes to make a long term vision come into existence, and he especially shows the toll it takes on a family.
11) The idea that your wife should make herself a slave to the financial stinginess, bizarre demands and insane expectations of most churches is not something that can be defended as “it’s necessary for the ministry.” It’s the prelude to your divorce.

When I read Jim’s post I think about the fact that he’s some sort of ‘code monkey’...I have in mind that he’s about my age and I then lapse into a daydream about all those guys with pocket protectors in the late 70’s whispering excitedly back and forth to one another about ‘Cobal’ and ‘Fortran’ as if they were state secrets sure to win the Cold War.

Then I wonder how those classes held up in their careers. Ok, there were some foundations laid in forming programs with those two languages that still provide a basis for today’s work…but those guys had to keep learning and growing to stay employable.
Just like me having to adjust a bit every time I hear a doctor prescribe a new med.  The truth is that we make career decisions every day of our life…I’m always a misdemeanor away from not passing a background check, and ending mine.

Jason, there are other helping professions in which you are allowed to be a minister of the gospel…mine is one.  In a post I could actually understand a week or so ago Joel referred to Restorative Justice, I searched it in Wikipedia, read the article and thought; “That’s what I do” when I work through staff/client, staff/staff or client/client problems.

Os Guinness calls it the “Protestant Distortion” in The Call (heartily recommended) when we put forth the idea that there’s a thing called ‘full-time-ministry’ that is somehow better than any other vocation that man gives his time to.  I hear you when you say “I don’t see it changing people’s lives for the better.”, and reflect that though I work directly with people every day in a caregiving profession, I often “don’t see” the change either…I imagine our Pastor-Fellows could say much the same.

Dennis: Nobody makes us follow the career directions we take, nobody makes us train in only one area so as to be unemployable elsewhere. Well, I know you meant “makes” in the sense of “compels us by force,” so I won’t quibble directly, but the truth is, we live in a world where society, marching in step with technology, simple requires specialization in most fields. Further, Kent is absolutely correct in noting that the lack of formal or informal apprenticeship systems for most careers make it pretty much a crap shoot whether you’ll end up in one that actually works for you.

The irony is, we have all sorts of perfectly fine testing mechanisms that can reliably match career choices to personality types and interests. I’m not sure it’s much different to day, but how many high-schoolers are given Myers-Briggs, Strong Interest Inventory, or similar evaluations before they are placed into a career track? Many people don’t even know such things exist until years later, if they are caught in corporate downsizing and are fortunate enough to have an employer who’s taking advantage of the tax laws that let them write off “transition services” to laid-off employees as an expense.

Part of the blame for this is the fact that technology has made our world infinitely more complex than it was back in the day when anyone with reasonable intelligence could subsist off their own land. Another part of it, I believe is the pervasive acceptance of the belief that education is the cure for every ill; we’ve proliferated “knowledge” to the point of where we are inundated by information, and as a result we often are unable to make decisions because we’re stuck processing the infinitely updating data stream.

Following Kent’s comments, and reading much of Michael’s confessional work, I have to be honest in saying that I’m always fighting against second thoughts about ministry.

Let’s put it this way. I’m a network sysadmin. I’m good at it. It pays the bills and tech toys are fun to play with. But it doesn’t mean anything. I don’t see it changing people’s lives for the better. It lets us act busier and busier and lets us pretend that we are the uber-productive masters of the world, but really it just gives us more work to do and less time with family and friends. On the other hand, even as an introvert and a bit of a loner, I love the Church. I love her broken people. I love studying the Bible, learning from Christ, and teaching that learning to people. I love living life with believers, and talking about Jesus with them, and helping them find Christ in the situations of their lives. I love the mission of God, and as poorly as I live it, I love living in Christ in the world and talking about life with people. In those conversations, their spiritual thoughts will eventually come up, and Christ can be proclaimed. I love serving the church. Even when it’s frustrating trying to serve with all you’ve got, and you can’t get every last soul around you to dive in with the same passion and desire (because we all aren’t wired for the same thing – something I need to remember), it’s awesome to know that there are other broken souls willing to gather together for a moment of gratitude to the One who saves. To put this ramble another way, I’d love to serve the Church full time.

BUT – I also see the down side. I hear about the trouble pastors have. I hear about the way they are treated, nay, exploited by their churches. I hear about the burnoit and backstabbing. I hear about the way they are “employed” at a price that barely lets them function in society, and certainly doesn’t let them raise a family properly. I hear about the way they are expected to put their families second to their ministry, which I believe is a great sin churches commit against their shepherds. I see all this and wonder if I should seek something bi-vocational. In my idealistic world, I’d love to just start up a house church with a few super-committed people to worship together, to serve together, and to do mission together, and I know I’m not alone there. I’ve even considered (for a nanosecond) forgetting the whole seminary thing, and ordination, and just starting up something, but then to whom would I be accountable? And so it goes…

Will I get to seminary? I hope so. Will I be able to serve Christ and survive His people? I pray it will be. So my question to the pastors here is this: How do you deal with this, and is it worth it? I’m not talking about forsaking a calling. That can be lived out whether in the employ of a church or not. I’m talking about questioning the form of the pastoral role in society, and questioning whether or not we’re even doing it right. (Meanwhile, I’ll keep working, and keep reading Scripture, along with all the other books about Christ that I’ll read whether I get a sem education or not.)

Dennis: Stipulated.

But…nobody told me when I majored in psychology that I’d need a Ph.D. to make more than $10/hr, or that I’d be paired-off on an inpatient psychiatric unit with an RN making $22/hr that couldn’t deescallate a pissed-off puppy, all while performing suicide assessments for $8.58/hr.

Or…how ‘bout the time I was asked by the Sherriff’s office to intervene in a family crisis on behalf of one of my kid-clients…$7.50/hr for going somewhere that the Deputy on the scene stated “I’d stay the hell out of there if I were you”.

Ok, war stories...and the battleground on which I learned the skills of my profession. Social work, like the pastorate, is full of whiney, petty, selfish, mean and stingy people. We never stop learning how to deal with those folks. My personal battleground right now is the acceptance of authority and learning the skills of leadership…both areas are problematic for me (which makes this a good time to plug some recent personal blog entries).

I frankly think it sucks that our workplace system is such that one hardly knows a thing about the career one is training for until one is done training for it. Workplace misery and struggle is universal…a truth that goes back to God’s curse on Adam. I think it sucks that instead of supporting one another we become self-righteous…but it’s not my pain, it’s our pain…the pain of being human.

(BTW – We found our first couch next to a dumpster behind a gas station.)

Kent: Nobody makes us follow the career directions we take, nobody makes us train in only one area so as to be unemployable elsewhere (50% of Pastors).

True enough! Unfortunately, nobody tells these young men and women in their training that they will most likely have to work in a small church. In that small church they will be expected to be on call 24/7, be available whenever someone thinks they should be available, be underpaid; be happy when everyone else gets to go on vacation but they can’t afford it, work for months to change every small fricken thing (where to communion tables resides), not see a raise in 5 years, not be able to go to the store without someone snooping in their grocery cart and reporting to everyone else you bought some cheap ass bottle of wine, spend most of your time doing newsletters and bulletins because you can’t afford to have an office assistant, live on hand-me-down TV’s and furniture. No wonder they leave.

Having taught at a Christian University, I found most of the people going in ministry do so with an American mega-pastor mentality. Nice salary, golfing, Hawaii, tennis, speaking, books, conventions, and people who will say yes to every idea, mission trip vacations to exotic lands, nice homes and sexy women who want to be with them. Most believe they can make enough money their spouse can stay home and properly raise the children. When 95% of them can’t live like this they do one of 2 things; learn to adjust or lose their passion.

Per the Death by Ministry post linked from TheResurgence; they state that their data is from Barna and Focus on the Family and though I have no reason to doubt either…I do find it difficult to believe that 1,500 pastors/month, that’s 18,000 pastors/year are leaving the ministry.

It may have something to do with the fact that in three years this number would populate the county I live in and my perceptions are therefore skewed, but how could any ‘industry’ tolerate such a mass personnel exodus? It was stated that the reasons for leaving were “moral failure, spiritual burnout, or contention in their churches”; I wonder if their statistic is recycled to some extent. In other words, do 1,500 pastors a month “leave the ministry for a time and later return”?

Also, since I consider myself, and every other Christian I know, a “moral failure” I wonder if I’d re-phrase that as “visible moral failure”. Also telling was the statement “Seventy percent said the only time they spend studying the Word is when they are preparing their sermons”; maybe I’ve read too much Nouwen but I can’t imagine that any part of a preacher’s life is not in some way preparation for a sermon.

I wouldn’t want to pastor most churches I’ve experienced, but nor would I want to doctor most patients, sell most of the cars…IOW, all vocations have deep difficulties…I saw a colleague in tears yesterday because of an ugly decision that was hers alone to make. Nobody makes us follow the career directions we take, nobody makes us train in only one area so as to be unemployable elsewhere (50% of Pastors). As I tell our staff when they are struggling with a client’s behaviours…this isn’t about you, it’s about them.

Douglas, I’m not a pastor, but I’ve been pondering this as one who aspires to the job. I agree with the lurker’s point, and found it helpful even as a lay leader. As I’ve been thinking it over, though, I’m going to make a distinction in leadership that I don’t necessarily agree with, but have observed. The points made apply nicely to the office of pastor, especially one as the leader or primary shepherd of the flock. But in many churches, even congregational ones, there is often an elder board. Many times these elders are not trained in theology, nor are they particularly pastoral. They are often men who are successful in the business world, and when they approach their leadership roles in congregations, they lean on their business training to make decisions regarding the governance of the church.

Could this be why we so often see cases where there is a three-way miscommunication between the pastor(s), elders, and congregation over the running of a church? I’m sure Michael’s essay about “the business meeting” comed into play here, as well.

(will continue pondering – perhaps a coherent thought will emerge)

Re: the pastoral leadership thingy, as long as the horse is still twitching I hope nobody minds if it gets beat some more…

The BHT’s favorite theologian crushes the long ball over the 425 sign in center field. Alastair Roberts Rocks with “Van Til’s Unicorn.”

The other tendency is that of demonizing people who differ from us and denying or marginalizing the things that we genuinely have in common. By demonizing people in this way we absolve ourselves of the task of being attentive to what they have to say. Once again we presume that we already know what they are going to say. A tradition that treats people in such a way is self-obsessed and self-absorbed. All is polarized into positions of varying consistency with one of two diametrically opposed systems.

It is, frankly, infuriating to be at the receiving end of this. I have been in this position far too much over the last few years. People try to force you into traditional categories in order to silence you. Once they have put you into a familiar category they don’t bother paying attention to what you are saying. They hear what you are saying without really hearing. They merely hear what they expect to hear. You are a unicorn, no matter how loudly you point out the things that identify you as a rhinoceros.

Those of you experiencing withdrawal from my lengthy philosophical posts can get your fix by checking out Cynthia Nielsen’s latest post on Modernism and Postmodernism. She moderates comments, so it may take awhile for my comment to show up (and I wouldn’t blame her if it doesn’t show up at all).

As some of you know, I’m not a very big fan of Van Til (the apologist/philosopher/theologian) and in my own work trying to explicate my approach to doing philosophy of science, I keep having to answer the “presuppositional” and “worldview” voices in my head. I suppose Cynthia is bearing the brunt of my complaints because this is something I’m working on right now and am frustrated that, as far as I can tell, reformational philosophy handicaps itself with thought-forms determined by Neo-Kantianism. I know, I know. Can you believe that? Well, I’m sure there are forty-six 20-page papers floating about that refute the claim I just made, but they’ll just have to keep floating.

On the bright side of life, John posted on The English Hymnal, which texts were set by Vaughan Williams. Ahhhh!

Bill and Jason: I propose we call it “The Emergent Thingy”

PWinn: No.

Aaron, though I don’t know your paternal history, I’d suggest an approach to TOAD (To Own A Dragon) that allows you to be affected by it’s words.  I spent a good day thinking about each chapter I read, and plan to re-read.

Douglas, sorry to hear that. I suppose we could put out a request to anyone who knows Greek and Hebrew, who might be willing to translate the ring verse :-)

That would make for a cool Rosetta Stone-like graphic. Blackspeach on top, then Greek, then Hebrew, then English. While we’re at it, we may as well throw in Latin.

I feel all geeky now.

Phillip:  It’s true that I don’t have first hand info on your profanitarianism.  I was going on the iMonk’s word of a few days ago.

Jason: Sorry, old bean, I seem to have lost that particular file. Pity, I was really proud of it too…  :-(

Jim: So does the video recommendation mean that you watched American Idol last night? :-)

All: I found this article an interesting take on Da Vinci Code. It has bothered me, as a protestant, to think that the RCC is being accused of suppressing the feminine divine, when they seem to be spending far too much time fixating on the feminine to me! Of course, DVC is stupid on all levels, but this one seems like a no-brainer.

Bill: How did I get a reputation as a cusser? It’s my wife with the potty-mouth!

The Oilers are doing great and look about to move on to the Stanley Cup finals. This has led to an unusual “crisis”: the city of Edmonton has run out of beer! At least the bars in the city’s party area have. This is funny, of course, but really rather sad. I love sports and I find it sad to see great athleltic feats become excuses for wretched excesses in drinking, public nudity (invariably young female nudity, urged by testosterone and alcohol mad young men) and violence (again fueled by testosterone and huge quantities of alcohol). I recall with sadness how the Red Sox 2004 WS run and eventual win (the highlight of my Baseball fan life) was marred by the senseless death of a young Emerson College student. Very sad.

So, enjoy the games, know your limits and stay well below it, and keep your shirt on.

And, oh yeah, GO OILERS!

Bill, I agree that the the term “emerging conversation” sounds dumb, but as it really isn’t a church, or a demonination, and it certainly is not a parachurch organization, but a bunch of people talking about church in a pomo/post-Christian/whatever world, then what should we call it? I don’t really have an answer to that question that satisfies me, so I stick with conversation, stupidity and all. I’ll concede the point that this gives rise to so much of the confusion and controversy. IMO, I think it causes more trouble than the words coming out of the liberal voices in the converstaion.

Bill: That argument commits the fallacy of affirming the consequent. For all people, if a person is a member of the EC, then he cusses. Driscoll cusses. Therefore, Driscoll is a member of the EC. The inference does not follow. A better argument would be:

1. For all people, if a person cusses, then he is a member of the EC.
2. Driscoll cusses.
3. Therefore, Driscoll is a member of the EC.

But premise (1) is obviously false.

iMonk: Of course I want to talk Calvinism. After spending so much time with a bunch of chanting papist monks, who wouldn’t? (JN)

Alex: You want to talk Calvinism, don’t ya? Don’t ya?

I considered editing the piece because I considered for a moment that an apostate has done something that an ordinary unbeliever hasn’t, i.e. specifically reject the faith he/she once appeared to believe.

From the standpoint of the doctrine of election and the reformed doctrine of regeneration, however, Ehrman 1) was never regenerate 2) was never elect 3) never received the gift of faith. That he may have at one point believed certain doctrines and even experienced “being a Christian,” the fact is that he was passed over, in eternity, and has never had true faith or actual regeneration. So now I am left simply with the fact that, as an unbeliever, he has an interest in criticizing aspects of what Christians believe. But then, so do millions of non-scholars.

Calling Ehrman “stupid,” (which you didn’t do btw) seems a rather bizarre thing for a Calvinist to say about an unbeliever. Creeping human elements in salvation? The “smart” people are probably regenerate. wink nod

In fact, isn’t Ehrman in better shape- in terms of honest unbelief- than the Pharisees Jesus said would be condemned all the while thinking they are believers?

Driscoll cusses.

Cussing is a characteristic of the people in the emerging church.

Ergo Driscoll is a member of the emerging church.  quod erat demonstrondum

I guess that means Rigney, Winn and the entire Clarkson men’s hockey team are also members of the emerging church.  I wonder if they know?

BTW: I deliberately used emerging church instead of emerging conversation.  I know emerging church may not be the most accurate moniker, but I’ve always thought the phrase emerging conversation sounded stupid. No offense.

iMonk: Interesting piece on Ehrman. I saw his Teaching Company stuff a few years back, and it was good, if not obviously biased in his own direction (but it is difficult to not let one’s own bias poke out when teaching). It is unfortunate that he apostastized from the faith, but I find the following remark of yours curious: “Personal faith is, according to the reformed theology I was taught, a GIFT of God. If Ehrman is an apostate, then he is no more or less to blame than your lost neighbor who can’t spell textual criticism.”

This is on an issue tangential to the one addressed in the essay, but my question: are apostates ever to blame for their apostasy? Do they bear any significant responsibility for their apostasy?

Michael: Your blog might be interested to know that NT Wright will be on the “Issues, Etc” radio show this afternoon. It runs from 3-6 pm. I’m not sure what hour he’ll be on.

It’s a live call-in. Here’s the link. http://www.kfuo.org/ie_main.htm

I have updated IM with a post on Bart Ehrman. I just finished two of his books (working on a third,) and wanted to write a bit of my impressions.

I say some positive things about Ehrman. Good writer. Not the spawn of Spong. Lots of interesting material. Some theories that deserve consideration. He ought to motivate the church to study harder and be more forthcoming about issues in the era of origins.

I also say: He’s not an orthodox Christian. He is a radical revisionist. He has an agenda of historical revision. He’s frequently wrong. Some of his charges of error have obvious and simple answers. He is popular because the church has ignored lay interest in many of the areas of scholarship he is writing about. He’s a media darling. His loss of faith because of one error in Mark is a bit Hollywood. And in a statement unprecedented from me, I suggest that young Christians might not need to read Ehrman without guidance from a more knowledgable mentor.

Let me make a prediction: This will not be enough for the Knights of Reformed Orthodoxy. Just wait and see.

The KOR have a special place in their arsenal for people who were once “one of us.” Wright wrote a book for Banner of Truth when he was 21. Ehrman attended MBI with the Pyromaniac. I once ate breakfast in the same cafeteria as John Piper.

Just wait.

Yesterday afternoon I read the new Driscoll book. I was very disappointed because I read it in less than two hours. I wanted it to be longer and have more stories and experiences he had with church planting. It is a great book and I recommend it to all.
My conclusion is I would rather have a cussing crude preacher who keeps Jesus as the centerpiece of his ministry and preaching than most of what we have out there. He does realize his language is hurtful to his ministry and writes about it in the book. I agree a lot of this criticism is probably from people who have not read the book. Driscoll is honest and real in this book. I am not sure many people can take honesty and transparency.
I am going to start reading “To own a Dragon” today sometime. I knew if I got started with it last nigh I would finish it to in one sitting. I think there is a rule somewhere that you can not read more than one book a day.

I go with the old standby: The ETP

Evangelical
Toilet
Police

with our motto:

“we make sure everyone ‘goes’ in a biblical fashion.”

I’ve always liked the U2 song “One”, and we even played it for a service once at church. But this morning, on a lark, I went on iTunes and got the video of U2 and Mary J. Bilge singing it together. (Disclaimer: I’m an iTunes affiliate. If you buy through that link, I get a small commission. If that bothers you, the video is currently linked from the home page of the iTunes music store.)

I cried like a baby through this. It has to be seen. If you have any doubts about Bono’s abilities as a songwriter, they will be utterly dashed. Whatever else you think of hip-hop or Mary J. Bilge, this woman’s voice is, in my opinion, absolutely perfect for the song, and her delivery is one of the greatest gospel music performances I’ve ever seen.

“Solution – spread the wealth of leadership responsibilities; don’t live in isolation from the flock; and BTW, flock, your pastor is a sinner just like you. DEAL. WITH. IT. Or take the uprecedented step of HELPING.”

A-M-E-N – At the height of the alt. service we used to do, we had a group that worked as a team to do almost everything. When it came down to individual sermons, each man was responsible for his own Bible study and content, but we could always back each other up on other issues. To be honest, we never really had to deal with any sticky pastoral situations, but no man was left with the weight of the world on his shoulders. Unfortunately, it didn’t last long, and stress started to take its toll, but it will always be in the back of my mind that an ideal church situation would be one where no pastor is left hanging in the wind.

Douglas, that sounds really cool. I’m just geeky enough that I might frame something like that. I remember a conversation where some friends and I thought it would be cool to see the ring verse rendered in Hebrew. I’ve always liked the look of hebrew writing.

If anyone here can do the Hebrew part, I’d be tempted to make images of the ring verse in both languages.

I have mainly sat back and listened/read to the brouhaha re:Driscoll and his language issues. I have also been reading David Fitch’s book The Great Giveaway, one of the chapters of which is devoted to the question of pastoral leadership and our expectations thereof.

My question is this – to what extent is our expectation of pastoral behavior set by our expectations of what a “leader” is supposed to be like, and where do those expectations come from?

My general thoughts on this are…

1) Fitch makes a powerful case in his book that much of our expectations of “leadership” in the Evangelical church are set by the models of leadership seen in the culture – i.e. entrepreneurial/hierarchical/pyramid-structure. I tend to agree.

2) I also think that (esp. regarding the attacks on Driscoll) that there is an expectation of moral/spiritual purity based more on revivalistic/moralistic/super-sanctification theology than on a “Christian Humanist” model (I threw that phrase in to get Michael’s attention. ;-}

3) Most pastors are “lone wolves” – the pluralistic model of eldership is (as far as I have seen) very rare. So the pastor carries the whole load on his shoulders. Put a sinner in isolation and dump tons of stress on him, and we are shocked, SHOCKED, to find out that he sins as a result!  What kind of “Leader” is he?

Solution – spread the wealth of leadership responsibilities; don’t live in isolation from the flock; and BTW, flock, your pastor is a sinner just like you. DEAL. WITH. IT.  Or take the uprecedented step of HELPING.

I know there is a pastor or two lurking here in this bar, so I especially would like to hear your correctives to my ramblings.

Jason: If I remember where I put it, tonight I will post my translation of the Ring Inscription into Koine Greek. I did it on a lark in Greek I class some years ago.

Paul Owens is a genius for coining the monicker Knights of Reformed Orthodoxy. It’s just so appropriate and Monty Pytonesque. I love it! It should certainly become the main name used to speak of these people whose main concern, it seems, is to sniff heresy out of the words of good people. Well done, Mr. Owens.