Joel, this is what I think you’re saying, please correct if wacked:

The Church has nearly two thousand years of experience creating beautiful music for worship. Why do we addict ourselves to the ‘culture of the current’ and in doing so deny ourselves 99.999% of our historic riches, pimping ourselves out to the ‘latest and greatest’?

Instead, why don’t we allow ourselves to be enriched and informed by our own history, by the vast cultural depth of our spiritual ancestors, those who have walked before us on the path of Jesus?

Bill, the true joy of bluegrass is not found in the listening; it’s in the community of creating it.

Living in St. Louis and all that, I am a Cards fan.  However, did they really have to show the victory parade on EVERY channel Sunday?  Why did they have to preempt football?  I really have no interest in watching a bunch of team execs give speeches.  “Thanks, taxpayers, for buying us a new stadium with fewer seats and higher ticket prices than the old one.”

I was going to post on music, as I read Joel’s post from last night and understood it, but this morning the discussion has me all confused again. 

now I present:  GodMen.

Bluegrass.  Listening to bluegrass is like listening to the screams of the damned in the lowest level of Dante’s Inferno, with fiddle accompanyment.  It’s like 6 rednecks beating you with leftover, rock hard cornbread, because it feels so good when it stops.  It’s like having the Game Show Network on and not being able to find the remote.

At this point I’ll listen in quiet fascination to Michael and Joel as they exchange views on music. However, I’ll add that it’s too early in the morning to have to learn new words:

Joel said: “Sacred music has never been achieved through mere mimesis of a particular form.”

mimesis

Dictionary.com – 1. Rhetoric. imitation or reproduction of the supposed words of another, as in order to represent his or her character.

American Heritage Dictionary – 1. The imitation or representation of aspects of the sensible world, especially human actions, in liturature and art.

Back to checking log files on the company network…

To add to what Joel said, this certainly is not about “high” vs “low” art. The Catholic author of that piece that started this whole discussion is coming from a very different viewpoint. One must remember that Tridentine liturgy comes from the medieval view of the Mass as the performance of the clergy. This is why in the popular terminology of the era, Catholics referred to going to church as “going to hear Mass;” the whole event was passive. Catholic Mass was therefore always much more saturated with performance arts than the Protestant Masses in Anglican and Lutheran communions. You’ve also got Romanism (i.e. the attempt to impose Roman church culture on the rest of the Christian world) undergirding the whole thing; the sense of the absolute superiority of Roman chant and hymnody goes way back, and Trent is the capstone on a thousand-year struggle of the bishop of Rome to achieve Roman cultural hegemony.

As I see it, Christian liturgy and performance art are mutually opposed. Even a choir, for example, is not intrinsically “good” where a guy with a guitar is “bad.” The anthem choirs of Protestantism are, for the most part, very much out of the “liturgical function” realm and into the “performance” realm. So again, we come back to “What is this for?” “What is it doing?” “Why are we doing it?” If the answer is some variant of “Rock people’s faces FOR JESUS,” you’re doing something wrong, whether it’s with an organ or a praise band.

Ninja edit:  Here is a pretty good article surveying the history of Lutheran liturgical reforms (pdf).  I think this might be helpful.

Joel: I’m really struggling to understand you here, so be patient.

If I brought you to Clay Co to teach a class on “What is good music?,” your answer would basically be that there are objective standards of beauty that dictate what is good music. I assume that, if pressed, you would say that while all human beings can understand those standards, imperfectly, you would also say that musical elites are in a position to tell us what is good music, and that we should reject consumer forces and listen to what they have to say.

I’m not being snarky. I’d make the same argument- more or less- with two things I love: poetry and preaching. But there is a reason I preached better sermons than other preachers in Clay Co, but preached them to an empty church. And there is a reason that tonight at soli deo, I won’t be using the “best” music by that definition.

Let’s take the soli deo thing. Why will I not be teaching some great hymn, but doing a worship chorus instead? Will it be because of consumerism? Perhaps, but as a reflection of our freedom to choose, the adaption to the instruments and space we have available, the particular needs of our liturgy, the time I have to teach, the ability of my group to relate to language, prior attitudes about hymns and so on.

Our group is educated and capable of appreciating the best music, but psychology, history, anthropology, history, prejudice, a history of association, pragmatism….all will go into our decision. And I’m pretty sure that the decision about what we sing will, in the end, be right for us, because the aesthetic standard shouldn’t be the primary thing dictating what we do musically.

Addendum. Michael said:

(...) both classical and bluegrass gospel can beautifully express what Luther is commending.

You won’t “hear what I’m saying” until you understand that where you say “both” I say “neither.”

I just don’t hear Luther saying that my mission in Clay County should be the wholesale use of classical music and the wholesale rejection of the folk tradition here.

He’s not and I’m not. If the church determines what is sacred music, then there is a vast literature stretching back at least 17 centuries that we have inherited. If one classifies this literature according to style or instrumentation, then one has missed what is unique and innovative about it. The EO having their entire liturgy sung are closer to the mark, but they allow so little experimentation that their literature crosses cultures only with great difficulty (but still nowhere near as culturally enclosed as our contemporary “praise” music is).

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Michael: Actually, Rob Bell is featured in Robert Webber’s book The Younger Evangelicals in the section on the younger evangelical practioners. Also, in a 2004 CT article entitled The Emerging Mystique Bell was featured and interviewed. Here is an excerpt from the interview:

“Weak is the new strong,” it turns out, is not just Rob Bell’s knowing reference to the world of fashion, nor just his clever reframing of Paul’s message of Christlike life. It’s a roadmap for a new way of doing church, even a big church.

And how did the Bells find their way out of the black-and-white world where they had been so successful and so dissatisfied? “Our lifeboat,” Kristen [Bell’s wife] says, “was A New Kind of Christian.”

So obviously Bell identifies closely with McLaren and therefore the emergent movement.

Adam: I’m curious to know what is the obvious difference you see in Bell’s view of being missional compared to Driscoll’s?

Speaking of making fun of bluegrass music, where is Bill Mackinnon?

With a week left until the elections, I bet he’s stumping for Hillary Clinton.

I don’t really follow MLB but someone sent me a link to the homepage of the Pujols Family Foundation, headed up by Albert Pujols and family.  Interesting.

Speaking of making fun of bluegrass music, where is Bill Mackinnon?

Well, I thought for a moment that someone was going to make fun of bluegrass music.  I am really glad that did not come to pass.

Joel’s comments about an inward focus are much appreciated by me.  That really clears up a lot and I can see how that line of thinking is legitimate and different from some others.

I’m almost done with my paper on John Frame. I’m going to have to give him a D- on pretty much…everything. My prof has been reading his Doctrine of God. Said it’s some ~600 pages on the attributes of God with about 30 pages on the Trinity. I’m sure his Doctrine of the Christian Life and Doctrine of the Word of God, which will complete his “Theology of Lordship” series, will be just as compelling.

A Reformed friend of mine told me that he really dislikes Frame’s tendency to subjugate all things, including the Cross, to a fairly legal concept of “lordship,” so it’s not my general Lutheran schismatic tendencies going on here. That’s consoling. I would say that once someone has laid it out for you that the Cross is at the center of Christian theology, no matter who it is (anyone from Capon to Luther), you really can’t go back to this kind of stuff and find any value in it.  I don’t know if Doctrine of the Knowledge of God is on the BHT Reading List or not, but it’s certainly on the Pirate Burnination List.

Michael, I tried to hook you up with some old-timey music. Did it work?

Mod: Nope

Let’s keep our wires crossed. I suspect our differences are ones in direction, rather than value. My missional focus is inward, “inreach” to the church (to quote Willard), as the task of developing and maturing disciples who can shine brighter and bring savoriness to the world wherever they are. I think we have an enormous cache of historical-cultural resources, an embarrassment of riches, to draw on for this task of making and cultivating Jesus apprentices. I hate to see their labors brushed aside and their products relegated to mausoleums in the same way I hate to see patristic theology ignored as irrelevant or with nothing to contribute beyond its historical and cultural boundaries.

The irony in the Luther quote is that Luther was a theologian, as was Augustine. Both preached caution with respect to sacred music. But if music is only in service to mission, then caution is no virtue; it is a vice. When music was something other than a means to an end, church musicians were required to be theologians (in keeping with the tradition of Levitical priests set aside to compose, lead and teach music to the people).

I love mountain music. We have a couple CDs of dulcimer. Our kids regularly request old timey music. The New Lost City Ramblers are a favorite band in the Hunter household.

I’m trying to get into the habit of being more honest and transparent so here it goes: More »« Less

Joel: I don’t know where between the Luther quote and the soli deo organ fund we are getting our wires crossed. I agree with Luther about music and all art. Enthusiatically. I just don’t hear Luther saying that my mission in Clay County should be the wholesale use of classical music and the wholesale rejection of the folk tradition here. I’ve heard you say before that you aren’t familiar with a lot of “popular” music (excuse me if I misheard) so maybe we would be on more common ground if you could see why I believe both classical and bluegrass gospel can beautifully express what Luther is commending.

For me, I have to find a way to hear what you are saying without hearing you say that only particularly kinds of music and instrumentation are fulfilling of Luther’s words.

And thanks for the organ tour for Clay. You’re a sly one, Mr. Hunter :-) I’m sending dulcimers and Bluegrass cds to your kids.

...except to shout “Irony!” (the Luther quote in Kinnon’s post).

Jamie Smith blogs on the lonely commute. I wonder how community-building is affected by cyber-commuting and time spent with our technologies with which we get/stay “connected.”

Glenn Lucke has posted this page from the up and coming Biblical theologian, Bill Wilder. Wilder has great lectures on N.T. Wright (mandatory if you want a mature perspective but won’t be reading all the books,) and Wilder’s current series on Intro to the Bible, which is outstanding stuff for adults. Get these good things.

I’ve never read or listened to a word by Bell.

Lucky you. Velvet Elvis was decent, but my impression of it plummeted after the Pirate shared that story about the professor who E-mailed Bell about the whole “dust of the rabbi” thing. The Nooma videos aren’t too bad, just incredibly hip. Oh, and I found it slightly funny that in a video where he talks about how he taught his son that stuff isn’t important and we shouldn’t get too wrapped up in stuff, he loads up the family into their Range Rover.

Bill Kinnon has a strong post on The Power of Music in Church. Take a moment, read the post and the comments.

Adam: I’ve never heard Rob Bell associated with the emerging church except by its critics. I find conservative evangelicals who relate to the emerging conversation to be remarkably consistent in their understanding of being missional. I’ve never read or listened to a word by Bell.

I’ve also never heard an emerging pastor or writer critiquing schools, but there’s a lot I haven’t heard.

Michael, thanks for the links. I know it may be hard to believe, but I do follow the emerging conversation pretty closely, and I think some words are designed to be elastic. For example, a lot of the arguments WITHIN the emerging church (forget the TRs) are over the terms “missional,” incarnational,” “modern” and “postmodern.” When I talk to people who are excited about what the emerging church is doing and offer criticism of my church, my job, or where I go to school I have learned that it is very important to have them define their terms.

Just the other week a guy told me my school (Northwestern College/St. Paul) was mired in “modern” ways of thinking. What does that mean? Turns out it had to do with being conservative in theology. Another guy I talked to uses the term to identify biblical interpretation that seeks authorial intent. (that tells you a little bit about “postmodernism” if you ask me.)

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Adam: You’ve missed a lot of a vast discussion. I don’t know where to point you. TSK has links for emerging books in that post and in the one previous to it. TSK recently did a series on the history of the emerging church that demonstrated that its vocabulary and concerns go back into the early 70’s church renewal movement, with Keith Miller and others writing about the “emerging” church long before there was anyone around to equate such with the end of western civilization.

Missional is a word that I’ve worked with in the IM post “Missional isn’t a bad word.” I recommend it, and the possibility that training Christians to think and act as missionaries is a Biblical and evangelical distinctive, not an innovation.

And your mention of ” imbibing postmodernism” will cause most of us to run for the hills because of volumes of past discussions. If you mean the TR definition, i.e. postmoderns are truth denying relativists, then the answer, I hope is, No. Or maybe I should ask what “imbibe” means? Again, the TR version is that all contextualization is bad, and we need to pretend there is no context in which the Gospel is heard, there is only the sentences and the verses. If a missional Christian, however, believes we live in a significant shift that can be described as postmodern, then reaching postmoderns with a postmodern context isn’t wrong; it’s mandatory.

I read some of the WST live blogs and I have to say it was very comprehensive. I guess the big question I have is about being “missional.” It seems like that concept has never been done before if you ask emerging church people what its all about. I’m not so sure that’s true. Furthermore, does being “missional” to postmodern culture mean that you imbibe postmodernism? Again, this isn’t at all clear.

TSK does a full review and reaction to the emerging church forum at WTS. This forum let the EC speak in its own voice, rather than laying down layers of outrage, then get one Rob Bell talk on record to prove you’re right.

I’m about to post a review of Frank McCourt’s Teacher Man. A fine book that ought to encourage every writer.

We’ve apparently just admitted the best basketball player any of our coaches have ever seen. I’m waiting to find out what’s wrong with him. We never get this lucky…or I’m just a huge cynic when it comes to sports. Credits. Eligibility. Sex Change. Something has to be wrong.

Travis links James Jordan’s Christian take on Halloween.

And on other channels…it’s all Spurgeon, all the time.

Is today some holiday that I don’t know about :-)

Yesterday our church celebrated All Saint’s Day in our worship services. It was a great day in which we remembered those from our family who died since All Saint’s Day last year. This year we only read aloud eleven names which was considerably less than the last three years. I was the preacher of the day and was happy to talk about death and resurrection. Many of the family members of those who died were there and I felt like I had an opportunity to talk to them about hope in a way that might not have resonated with them during the funeral itself.

It’s funny how after three and a half years I’m a lot less nervous to be pointed and direct with these people who may or may not disagree with Scripture. I was very frank about the reality of Christ’s resurrection and offered that as our hope for a future without death, pain, suffering, or tears (the text was Rev. 21:1-6a). I was also able to take a minute to explain that Revelation is not scary and that it isn’t all that Lahaye has made it out to be.

All Saints Day is Wednesday. Let’s remember and be thankful for the witness of those saints.

Scot McKnight paper presented at Westminster Seminary is online.

HT:Justin Taylor

Jack Chick.

[With all due respect to our own Chicky Translator extraordinaire, Scott W.]

The always insightful BWIII thinks that the Catholic approach to priestly celibacy is fundamentally and fatally flawed. He’s right, of course!

Jollyblogger quotes Jerry Bridges, who always gets the gospel right.

“In all the aggro that seems to gather around Driscoll, I have yet to see a single referenced example of him actually cussing in the pulpit. I have heard quite a few Driscoll talks and never heard any swearing or anything for that matter that would be significantly offensive to most, as far as I can tell.” -Adrian Warnock

#1 son and I were in Spokane (Washington) for the weekend.

We typically attend Anglican churches when we travel.

This morning we attended Spokane’s famous St. John’s Cathedral for their Rite 1 service.

If you have never been inside St. John’s, you are missing out. It’s one of the most beautiful cathedrals in the USA.

What struck me this morning, however, was that there were less than 40 people in attendance.

And of those that were there, well over half were over 70 years old.

If the Episcopal Church doesn’t do something soon, they will be going the way of the Dodo bird. And their churches will be just like those in Europe — museums to a religion no longer believed.

Maybe a hasty comment on my part, but the IMB trustee controversy has made me reluctant to hand over resources to an organization that has such a bull-headedly wrong view of other Christians. I certainly don’t want to duplicate anywhere the kind of fundamentalism isolationism, anti-charismatic prejudice and Landmarkist view of Baptism that has prevailed among IMB trustees this year. That said, those working for IMB itself appear to be priceless servants.

This is a hard question because I want all large cash gifts directed to OBI where they belong :-)

Michael, you certainly know a lot more about IMB than me.  But that sort of specific designation/direction of giving is possible, right? 

Also, I’m guessing Spurgeon was 20 at the time of that quote. 

Here is a little Spurgeon quote that I have appreciated:

Lay aside your prejudices; listen calmly, listen objectively: hear what Scripture says; and when you receive the truth, if God would be pleased to reveal and manifest it to your souls, do not be ashamed to confess it. To confess you were wrong yesterday, is only to acknowledge that you are a little wiser today; and instead of being a reflection on yourself, it is an honor to your judgment, and shows that you are improving in the knowledge of the truth. Do not be ashamed to learn, and to throw aside your old doctrines and views, but take up that which you more plainly see to be in the Word of God.

But if you do not see it to be here in the Bible, whatever I may say, or whatever authorities I may plead, I beg you as you love your souls, reject it; and if from this pulpit you ever hear things contrary to this sacred word, remember that the Bible must be the first, and God’s minister must be subject to it. We must not stand on the Bible to preach, but we must preach with the Bible above our heads.