A big part of what has led me to flee the open seas of the blogosphere for the refuge of this pub is that debates out there frequently turn from questions like “Is imputation biblical?”  to questions like “Does what this person believes about imputation make him a heretic?”

I would very much enjoy a spirited debate about imputation in the company of people like you who are not so quick to anathematize.  But I’m the new guy, so I’ll just sip my Laphroiag and be quiet a while.   

This interview with Andrew Sandlin will get a big “amen” from most of the BHT. It’s about his book Uninventing the Church, but it spends a lot of time in the first half on the sectarian nature of reformed Christianity and, especially, the “guilt by association” tactics that are so common today. Really a good interview.

 I’m new in the Bar, but I’ve lurked here for nearly 4 years. 
Why?  Not for the rare fights, though fights in here  are great fun to watch.   I think what kept me coming back  is the honest broker feel of the BHT.  Sometimes a hearty yawn is the best rejoinder to the fracas going on elsewhere. 

Proverbs 26:17 Like one who takes a dog by the ears Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him.

Van Til the dog, do you like that verse?

Tom said something I agree with. Close the doors.

From the Blue Raja:

About Federal Vision – I think the basic idea has to do with the “objectivity of the covenant”, namely the idea that a person is considered a member of God’s covenant family by baptism (not by regeneration), resulting in a view of the Church which dissolves the “visible/invisible” distinction. The only church is the visible church, and while a person can be a faithful or an unfaithful member of the covenant, being a member of the family is established on sacramental not inward, spiritual grounds. Thus anyone who recieves the sacraments in the name of the Trinitarian God is a Christian and should be seen in solidarity with other Christians (including Roman Catholics). The issue of whether such members are actually faithful members, or whether they require discipline or admonition is a different question which FV people see as inappropriately conflated with conversion by other Reformed folks. There’s more than that, obviously, including some theological nuancing about imputation that raises Reformed hackles. Here’s a great article on the topic, if anyone’s interested.

I should have also mentioned that this emphasis on objectivity in defining a Christian (i.e. baptism) results in a doctrine of justification that necessarily emphasizes the future assize when all men will be judged based on the presence or absence of real faith in Christ, demonstrated by the Spirit’s fruit during their lifetime (another paleo-Reformed belly buster).

By that I mean, I don’t remember the FV (whatever it is) ever generating enough interest to stimulate a conversation, let alone enough controversy for dead-horsehood.

I hope it’s not a copout to say that I’m just trying to be a follower of Jesus and I’ll let Him take care of all the ins and outs of imputation, permutation, etc., etc. To me, Federal Vision is something George Washington and the founding fathers had.

My family and I are members of a PCA church, but we remain adherents to credobaptism. The rest of the congregation is polite about it, and only make fun of us behind closed doors.

Michael keeps trying to tempt me with local Acts 29 offerings. We shall see..

Also, I think Alex belongs to a PCUSA church, doesn’t he? Or maybe he moved when he went off to grad school.

MOD: He was in a PCUSA, but is now CRC, but he still gets to be picked on.

Joel is now extremely offended now that I, with all my baptist heretical leanings, have been identified as PCA :)

Would somebody tell me what FV is? I’d like to know the horse’s affiliation before I start kicking the dirt.

I’m not PCA.  I’m SBC getting a PCA degree.

I don’t have a PhD, so the FV makes me say OMG and drink an ESB.

Doug Wilson takes on Hitchen’s new book on atheism.

It’s indicative to me of the quality of the FV controversy that I have read a book on it and kept up with it for a year and have no idea what it’s about.

Frankly, if it means Mark Horne can’t preach in someone’s church and Doug Wilson is heretic, it must be an amusement for people who find aluminum foil balls to be endlessly fascinating.

I do get it on the NPP: Nothing discovered about first century Judaism since the time of the reformers has any bearing on confessional Presbyterians. (jn)

Serious rookies, I think people come to the BHT to get away from the xxxx at Puritan boards, etc. Good fights in here are rare. Good when they happen. (We’re praying that Jack and Joel have it out in the alley sometime.) But very very rare.

The brightest part of the crazy trip home was that we were not out searching for a church in a ghost town whistle stop with a parsonage with chickens on the stoop.
We were just trying to find our way out of there.

One day I’ll write my chicken stoop memoirs. Writing a best seller might be the only way that I can pay off student loans that made this gig possible.

I will publish a list of PCA BHT fellows, and you can harass them. The rest of us are happy to be out of it.

Kurt, Alex, Joel, Travis, Mark, Brian….

Shea, we’re both newcomers around here, but I think this horse is asleep.  Not dead, but tired of it all….

Shea, I’m PCA, but not NPP.  I love NT Wright on the Resurrection, and appreciate other aspects, Christ’s cosmic triumph over the powers, the narrative of the salvation story, etc.  But I wrestled with justification and double imputation a long time, and a long time ago.  It is the standing or falling article for the church and for  my life.  I think Luther got that right. 

By the way, the first time I heard of NPP theology was in a Leon Morris commentary on Romans years ago as one piece of what’s going on in Romans.  The PCA is not budging on requiring a Westminster Confession understanding of Justification as a baseline.  PCA pastors have to affirm this, teach and preach this or in all honesty they must resign their charges.  What my friends who hold to NPP tell me is that they do agree with WCF theology but also see benefit in NPP.  My FV friends tell me the same.  NT Wright has affirmed this in different places also. 

  The FV stuff is more perplexing.  Tried to read Norm Shepherd, got nothing but dryer lint.   Covenant used with a hyphen is usually hyper-Covenantal-Covenantalism….

Wish I could be more controversial. (jn)  My first  skim read of the PCA  statement is that it is well done and not particularly controversial at all. 

So far every horse I’ve rode in here seems to be already dead.  But c’mon, this one is still hot off the presses, right?  I just finished reading the PCA study moments ago.  Now, I’m sure it is granted by everyone in this bar that fans of Douglas Wilson and NT Wright are good brothers and sisters in Christ, so let’s not get sidetracked by shrill accusations of censoriousness.  But isn’t there something important at stake here worthy of serious discussion?  If you were a FV person ordained in the PCA, how would you respond to this? 

Here’s a bone to the NPP folks.  I am sympathetic to the view that imputation is redundant because it’s included in union with Christ.  I agree that union with Christ is the “controlling paradigm”, whatever that means.  But just because imputation is redundant, doesn’t mean it’s wrong.  It’s just one more wonderful aspect of our union with Christ.  When you get married, your spouse is responsble for all your debts and you acquire all the assets of your spouse.  So when we are united with Christ, he pays all our debts and we get all his righteousness.  Redundant?  Stick in in your pie-hole, I’m singing hymns about it.

Ah, yes, good old Calhoun. Did some work at a couple of sites there in my former life. Like the old airfield with the grass strip next to the interstate. Some rusty old birds I should have photographed. It’s amazing how the sprawl of Atlanta reaches up that far. Cartersville is definitely exurb. When I worked in Kennesaw and Marietta, I had colleagues who commuted from Ringgold and Dalton. I’ll bet you’ll have ministry opportunities with the textile industry and various factories and plants. Lots of working class folk and rural, too. Some big employers there. Have you been to Barnsley Gardens down at Adairsville? Love the manor house ruins. Southern gothic. Looks like the dining has gone way upscale since I was there, though. Still, The Mister owes you.

Joel, it’s a really pretty part of the country. No doubt about that. I’ll be serving for the first time as an associate. It will be a great change of pace for me. I’ll be working with one of the nicest and most able pastors I’ve ever known on a new staff. They just hired a full time church musician and a full time youth guy. I’m doing primarily education and discipleship—preaching occasionally. I’ll certainly be busy. I’m glad for that. I’ll have to be very bright and shiny j/n and I’m not sure how that will work out. I want to be my very best. I also want to be myself. In a larger church there will be a lot of people to please—so bright and shiny it is—maybe the new and improved me.
The area is growing very fast—closer to Chattanooga than Atlanta. Still, very rural. My new senior pastor (as of June) said that it is the type of community that still expects the senior pastor to do the hospital and other pastoral care visits. That really tells me a lot. It also frees me to bear down on area ministry and I’ll have the energy of a thriving church community behind me. I’ve pushed those small church trains until I’m just burned. Not burned out or burned up but certainly ready for this change.

Y’all know I tried very hard to get appointed to a much more liberal, urban setting. But, I also prayed very hard to be ready to receive God’s best. I believe this is it. Praise God.

Procrastinating…

Medieval monks makeover moldy manuscripts. And imaging technology is revealing what lies beneath some of those prayer books. The latest discovery: an ancient commentary on Aristotle’s Categories, one of the texts in the Organon.

 Michael, yes, I agree in principle that the complementarian issue should not be elevated to Apostles’ Creed type status.   It’s hard to work out though, and each side struggles because it’s impossible to compromise the positions and split the difference. 

I’ve been writing explanations of some of the more misunderstood aspects of the Apostles’ Creed. 

Came across this quote by PCA

Pastor Richard Phillips discussing HE DESCENDED into Hell.

 ”At this point, many people complain of archaic language and formulations that require lengthy explanations.  Shouldn’t we have a new, modern, contemporary version of the Apostles’ Creed that changes the language to make it easier?  My answer to that is, “No!”  It is far better for us to get into the habit of asking questions and becoming educated about the history of our faith and the formulations of earlier generations, than it is for us to arrogantly package everything in bite-size meals that fit our appetites.  I for one, would rather have an ancient creed that makes me think about my faith, than a contemporary McCreed that makes everything a happy meal for our child-like minds.”

This class has ten girls and two boys. The boys are a Haitian-American and one of my Chinese kids. The girls regularly use their dominating numbers to be gross, exactly like boys would do in the reverse situation. Actually worse.

This kid has a family in ministry nearby, but they have sent her to us. ‘Nuff said.

Michael, I’m sorry about your experience today. I know for a fact that you are a marvelous teacher. Amazing the things that can unnerve us, huh?

But, hey. Girls can be gross. But, never boys, right? (Big jn) And, I think girls are getting grosser. Sort of an overall coarsening of the culture. Class has gone out of style. Not to mention manners. That girl was rude, rude, appallingly so. But, manners can be taught and class rubs off. You (and her women teachers) are still her best example.

Category: Joel’s BHT Santa list. Item: An Introduction to Planetary Defense: A Study of Modern Warfare Applied to Extra-Terrestrial Invasion. I think I’m compensating for my loss of faith during adolescence in pre-trib, pre-mil rapture “eschatology.”

Category: Joel’s Junk Mail. Item: Brochure for press discount on Sound Figures of Modernity: German Music and Philosophy. Siiiiiiiiigh. If I only had the time.

Tom, Richard: Word.

Sharon: Your new appointment? Do tell. We’ve taken many excursions into north Georgia. There are some wonderful stretches of the Trail up there.
Michael, you should know better than to make a Reds game your happy place. Your team is doing to Hamilton what Travis’s team is doing to A-Rod.

But then an angry woman told me I can’t teach today, so maybe I need to shut up (jn).

I have NEVER referred to my husband as The Mister. Let me try Wonderful Husband, Holder of the Stoopit, Bad Map.

The trip started out to be just a jaunt into the city to get the topcase of my macbook replaced. It was my stupid idea to trek on up north to check out neighborhoods near my new appointment. What a stupid idea. It hasn’t rained in about a month and as soon as we headed north, buckets started falling.

I have a pain in my right eye and a twitch in my left.

I probably do NOT need to read Driscoll tonight.

One of my weekly pleasures is the Revolution 21 podcast. I’ve plugged it before, run the banner, etc. It’s a great one hour of eclectic music. The Mighty Favog (yes, that’s his name) does a high quality show that you would enjoy.

On April 21st, the show is totally in memoriam of the VT victims, and there is nothing but music and cuts from the live coverage.

You need to hear this.

Here’s the song list.

Noel writes about being named Noel. (We almost named her Casey.)

Bob: I invest a significant portion of my week in leading a men’s group twice a week. I preach to our young men specifically all the time. I get Driscoll too. But it’s not the Gospel. Driscoll is part of a group that wants complementarianism to become an essential. An Apostle’s Creed level doctrine. That’s out of balance, imo.

But then an angry woman told me I can’t teach today, so maybe I need to shut up (jn).

Michael, I get Driscoll.  Wouldn’t say it the same way, but women rule in the local church.   It’s over 60/40 percent women in evangelical circles.  Compute the volunteer hours, leadership in committees, etc. and I believe if we don’t focus on men and challenge them to rise to lead that it will be all women, all the time.  And the men, they like it that way.  Spirituality is just for the women folk….   That’s what I’ve seen for my 19 years in the pastorate….

TSK on Driscoll and Hybels intersecting at a conference he attended. Driscoll’s “It’s About Men” message is a serious rearranging of the gospel. I hope he gets some perspective on this.

Carl Olson has a good post. One reviews some excellent coverage of the MSM during the VT massacre. Blunt and necessary.

And First Things has this: Archbishop Charles Chaput with “Religion and the Common Good.”

Pimp your moleskine…..into a portable hard drive!

I’m with Tom on that FV thingy. Really!

John J. Miller on “The Writing Life.”

Now Joel, you know it’s ok for the conservative base to go “hatin’ on” and eating their own. But if the liberal base starts attacking them, they’ll get motivated, with the exception of one pulling a stupid stunt in the eyes of enough of the population that they must resign immediately. In that case, they let it go and never speak of it again.

Isn’t politics fun? (blech)

The left’s inherent belief that most of the country is actually liberal is an endless well of conservative political capital. Note how quickly Obama decried a SCOTUS decision that he should have simple not commented on at all. With one press announcement, he lost thousands of potential evangelical votes. Nothing but stupid. Another Democrat who never saw an abortion he didn’t like.

Whatever issues your team has, they won’t know what to do with them. Hillary may be the next POTUS, but not because the country likes her politics.

> [I]mpeachment will do more to fire up the conservative base than almost anything

Will it be more or less fired up than leftist base of the Democratic Party was after Clinton’s impeachment and trial? Let’s see, that would be the 2000 presidential election…

The VP is viewed favorably by only 48% of Republicans. What is that, about 20% of the electorate? Nah, I don’t see Cheney’s impeachment as much help at all to “conservatives.”