Beware of Veggie Tales.

The producers of these Veggie Tales movies desecrate Holy Scripture by perverting it into upbeat do-good stories completely absent the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Read that sentence again. Holy Scripture. That’s what we teach our children that the Bible is. Holy. Untouchable. Sacred. Must not be tampered with. But we are considered freaks in a world where nothing is sacred. Nothing is holy. Nothing is untouchable, particularly if there is cash to be made. These people are getting wealthy off the mistreatment of the Word of God.

I watched a Veggie Tales video years ago that had been given to one of my preschoolers. In the story the vegetables were trying to avoid the lie that was trying to come in the window. If they avoided the lie, they would be good. The false teaching in that was that lies don’t come from outside us as the video taught. They come from within us because we are sinful and corrupt, and that’s why we need a savior. But vegetables don’t need a savior. Jesus didn’t die for tomatoes and cucumbers. The foolishness in these videos serve as spiritual confusion for children who go around believing that the Ninevites were about to be destroyed by God for slapping each other with fish. In another movie, the vegetables are featured throwing grape slushies over the Walls of Jericho. And we wonder why our kids are biblically illiterate and grind holy things under their feet. They learned from their parents who taught them to do so.

How many hours of this garbage do you want your children to watch? We have the Holy Bible, preserved through the centuries by the martyrs who gave their blood for their love of God’s Word. So what do we give our children? Trash movies that distort the sacred words of Scripture into little moralistic, works righteousness tales with dancing cartoon characters.

Makes me want to ask this question: Do we give the impression that ordinary Christian growth = becoming theologically educated? Why does Christian growth = getting a college level mastery of theology? Where’s that in the Bible? Growth is about character, knowledge and love. And despite what you’ll hear from the infallible party, it doesn’t break down as 85% doctrine. The way you hear some Christians talk, we aren’t disciples; we’re students and the ideal Christian is something like the Big Brained Blog.

I’m no expert on open theism, but I’ll stick my foot in it anyway. An open theist might say that God is smart enough to do the calculus on the bridge and realize the collapse is going to happen without some kind of foreknowledge in the usual sense of the word. It’s not that he knew it as if it had already happened, but he was able to see that it would. It would be based on his knowledge of the past, not on his knowledge of the future. Time is real that way, not in the sense of time as a substance, but in the sense of time as a way to denote sequence.

In this view, God doesn’t know the future, because it hasn’t happened yet and cannot be known. But he’s real smart, and sometimes it seems to us like he knows the unknowable.

If a person were smart enough to do the same calculus and had the resources to change the equations by fixing the bridge, the collapse could have been prevented.

In the same way, God can change the equations—he certainly has the resources. Sometimes he does this in response to our prayers.

OK. Let me have it. I can take it. I’ve already been burned at the stake once today. I’m sure you can tell that my knowledge of open theism is at a very elementary level.

Since Bill is harassing me by IM, here’s my two cents on the Olson article.

To call Calvinists “Christian determinists” is a bit simplistic and I’m not too fond of that label even if one of my professors, Jerry Walls, would agree.

I think open theism is heresy and I don’t think God was surprised by the bridge collapse—he just didn’t make it happen.

The question I would ask Calvinists is “How is God glorified by causing the bridge to collapse?” If God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in him, who among those affected by the bridge collapse are satisfied?

I contributed to the drive for one thousand comments:

This is a negative comment, so it subtracts one.

I think those pyro people have great pictures. They sort of grab you—right off. I’ve never read of word of it.

I’m trying to play the man, but … ouchie!

Nice quote in the comments at the burning blog.

Gentlemen,

After reading this article, you can shut down Pyro. This says it all.

Not a problem at all.

Bill, I am reasonably comfortable with Olson’s take on it. But I tend to be fairly Open, if you know what I mean. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

This is from the sermon on Romans 8:19-22 (creation subjected to futility) that I’m working on for Sunday.  So there’s still time to spare my congregation if you think it’s heresy…

...That word for futility is sometimes translated vanity, and it is the word used in Ecclesiastes. “Vanity of vanities!  All is vanity!” or “Meaningless! Meaningless!  All is meaningless.”  So the preacher of Ecclesiastes says in 8:14, “There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless.” and in 9:11 “the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.”

You say, wait a minute, I didn’t think we believed in chance.  Sure we do.  We just believe that God is in sovereign control of everything that happens by chance.  Does that sound like a contradiction?  It’s not.  Here’s the first entry in Webster’s for chance.  “unpredictably, without discernible human intention or observable cause.”  Things most certainly happen in this world unpredictably and without human intention or any observable cause.  But God is sovereign over all those things.  Proverbs 16 says that the lot is cast into the lap but its every decision is from the Lord.  God is so sovereign that every roll of every die on every table in Vegas comes up the number that God decrees it to be.  

But if you go out there and watch them roll the dice you quickly conclude that the rolls of the dice are meaningless.  The winning numbers don’t come up for nice guys any more often than they do for wise guys.  Time and chance happen to them all.  When the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper, Ecclesiastes calls that meaningless.  That doesn’t mean that God isn’t in control of it, it just means that you can’t draw any conclusions from it. 

So too, many if not most of the sufferings we experience by virtue of living in this fallen, cursed world are, in this sense, meaningless.  That doesn’t deny that God is in control of them.  That doesn’t deny that God will work through them for your good.  They are not purposeless, but they are meaningless in the sense that you can’t draw any conclusions from them.  God has subjected this creation to vanity, so expect it to make no sense to you. 

Again, it may be meaningless to us, but it is not purposeless to God.  God subjected the creation to vanity…in hope.  So let’s consider for the rest of our time together the hope that we have that sustains us throughout our lives in this cursed world of inexplicable sufferings… 

It’s true that sometimes I don’t recognize the God that some Calvinists paint a picture of, but I sure don’t recognize the God Olson depicts either.  He may be a little flaky on Baptist church membership but I’m going to have to get on the boat with Piper over Olson.  While Olson may be Arminian, I would think that a lot of Arminians wouldn’t be too comfortable with what he wrote.  Then again, I’m not Arminian, so who knows?

Bullies need a kid to beat up, and when that kids says stop, they mock him and kick harder.

A balanced view of the Mother Teresa matter.

If you plan to run this play, be sure and leave town quickly.

Jump…..over the motorcycle.

And finally, Roger Olson, an Arminian that has the spine to actually take on Calvinism on theological grounds, talks about Calvinism and the bridge collapse.

The God of Calvinism scares me; I’m not sure how to distinguish him from the devil.

Criticize the EC all you want.  Honestly the EC is so low on my radar that it barely registers.  But if someone says that the EC has nothing to do with Christianity, then they are being dumb.  If you defend that statement, then you (not YOU, John, more of the generic YOU) are being dumb.

Watchblogs don’t create post after post ad nauseum refuting the errors of Hinduism.  Why?  Because Hinduism has nothing to do with Christianity.  The new EmergentNo isn’t posting article after article refuting and mocking the EC because it has nothing to do with Christianity, but because it does!

Bill: I’m afraid you simply aren’t being honest when you deny being sympathetic to “Emerging Church” trends. You are either self-deceived or deliberately lying. I don’t pretend to know which, but it’s largely a moot point when you (and your fellow EC heretic “Art”) are overtly hostile and utterly closed-minded towards any significant criticism of the ECM. (jn+++)

(But this was jn-free, alas.)

I’ve become fascinasted by the book of Esther and the behind the scenes use of power. One queen refuses to appear to the king, one queen tempts the king with her unbidden presence, and a whole cadre of eunuchs who groom and serve the powerful even as they plot against the monarchy. Wow. A real page turner, not to mention applications for the church. I told my pastor that my new favorite verse in the whole Bible was “Queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s command…” He laughed and asked who the king was in my situation. I assured him it was a pastoral metaphor. We’re in a real spiritual battle right now with the church ‘monarchy’ for how to use church property and do ministry. The powers that be are delighted with their cracker-jack church staff and but I think we’re about to see some grumpy kings when the pretty queens (the pastors) refuse to dance for the court.  

So, uh, no, we won’t link the BHT. My pastor’s blog is perfectly suited for church consumption. I’ve never linked my own blog to the BHT either, for that matter. But, that could change…as I feel this creative fog lift.

Mother Theresa’s story is a thundering awakening. I can’t wait to read more about her story.

The comment thread over at the new EmergentNo is hilarious.  One guy makes the outrageous claim that the EC has nothing to do with Christianity.  Some guy named Art astutely observes that no matter its faults, the EC definitely has something to Christianity.  Then the ENOers start piling on.  Art tries over and over again to make his point but they simply don’t have the capacity to understand it.  They keep pointing out the errors of the EC and the head ENOer’s tireless crusade against the EC and the many articles the head ENOer has written (unwittingly proving Art’s point).  Art keeps explaining that he isn’t defending the EC, simply trying to make someone, anyone understand that the EC does have something to do with Christianity.

Let’s face it, if the EC had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, the self appointed defenders of Christian orthodoxy wouldn’t devote an entire website and years of work refuting it.

Now for the disclaimer:  I’m not emerging. I’m not emergent.  I have no piercings.  I have no tattoos.  I don’t use profanity, in or out of the pulpit.  I’m not an egalitarian.  What little of my hair is left is its natural color.  I don’t like incense.  We don’t use candles in our church except for weddings and the Christmas eve service.  I hate almost all praise music.  I’m good with the 5 solas.  I was baptized as a believer.  I don’t chant.  I’ve never read a book by Dan Kimball, Rob Bell, Mark Driscoll or Brian McLaren.  I’m not rude to old people.

Sharon, since your Sr. Pastor appears to have his blog linked on the church website why don’t you get them to link the BHT? :-D

I’m kidding ‘cause there ain’t no way I’d let my church link my blog or the BHT.

I am writing this without going back and looking at Scripture much…but that’s never stopped me before.  I remember talking about this once with elders at our church.  Our pastor suggested, and at the time I agreed, that the passage in James about anointing with oil suggests that the elders go to the person (..let him call for the elders of the church).  That is, it is a very serious situation where the person is not even able to come to the fellowship.   This really limits it to serious illnesses.  It is hard to be dogmatic about it but certainly I don’t think it is something to be done casually two or three times every week.  BTW, no one has suggested that it be done casually, this is just my two cents.

I am on vacation in upstate New York with my children. I’m about as close to Bill as I can get without attending a deacon’s meeting at his church. Yes, Bill, I do plan to call. I’d send you email, but on dial-up that’s a losing proposition.

Among other things, this we marked my 46th birthday. I wrote down something I thought I should post here.

For all my life, I believed that the message of the gospel was this: God loves us so much that he will let us go our own way, walk away from his will, and make a mess out of our lives, and when we hit the bottom and have no place else to turn, he will come to us and bring us back to himself. And all of that is true, all of that is in the gospel that Jesus proclaimed to us.

But now I realize that the gospel is something far more mysterious, something far more disturbing, something far more difficult to accept, because the message of the gospel is also this: God loves us so much that he will let us try to walk in his ways, let us do the right things and be the right people, and our lives will still end up a mess. And when we reach the place where we realize just how useless our efforts to be righteous and pure and good are, and how God has absolutely no use for them, he will come to us and bring us back to himself.

I am convinced that God is as weary of our efforts to be fine, upstanding, moral people as we (if we are honest with ourselves) are. And I’ve reached a place where I’m no longer willing to make those efforts any longer. I’m tired of trying to do what God has already done for me. I’m tired of moving toward Someone I can never reach, especially when he is already standing right next to me all the time.

Jeff ____ has a thoughtful post on Mother Teresa and Pascal, and the tin ear of American religion. This is relevant to the ref21 criticism as well, which also assumes that “effective influence” is the measure of significant public faithfulness. Ellul’s diagnosis yet again.

The reason I asked about the oil and anointing is that we are working on some prayer events in our church, and without making a show of it, I’d like to give people the option of receiving prayer and anointing if they desire it.

I saw something cool on the ESV blog yesterday. Has anyone else seen the BibleMap.org site? It’s a Google mashup with locations of Bible places.

I for one am interested in what people have to say about the question of the elders anointing with oil and praying for the sick.  Why isn’t this done more often?

Another question: When studying the LS in 1 Cor. 11 in men’s study, we read this passage:

¹⁹For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

Is it just me or does that interpretation seem whacked to anyone else?  It seems to me that Paul is clearly being sarcastic here.

Credit where it’s due: I greatly enjoyed the following, which got mentioned in a comments thread on a certain graphics-heavy blog. It’s a source-critical analysis of “Humpty-Dumpty” by Edmund P. Clowney, from 1960: More »« Less

John H: On the principle of “whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none”, I would think it is important for those of us who do have something like small group fellowship going on in our own homes to practice hospitality and welcome in those in our congregation who do not.  Rather than saying that small groups are only necessary for those who lack such families, I would nominate heads of healthy families to be small group leaders.  I know that time constraints may force us to choose the essential over the good, but on the other hand, do families really go under by opening their homes and spending themselves for the needy?  In my family, the real threats to fellowship are soccer practice, oboe lessons, marching band, irish dance classes… (I’ve got five kids, the list goes on!)  

And for my third post in a row, Abraham Piper emailed me:

Briefly, here’s why I question O’Connor—and it’s a literary quibble, not religious: It seems like people only see the “meaning” of her stories after they have been directed what to look for either by the author herself or by one of her admiring critics. After we hear that all her stories are about grace and violent conversion, then we see it. But according to O’Connor, a story should contain within itself everything a reader needs to understand it. So if her stories, require an outside source to open them up, then they are faulty—judged by her own standard.

Or perhaps they don’t mean what she said they do.

I would be interested in finding out whether anyone has ever interpreted her stories the way she says they should be without first reading “Mystery and Manners” or one of the dozens of books that “explain” her. If no one has—if it is impossible to come up with the truth without a key—then the stories are faulty.

Nobody will say that O’Connor was a perfect artist. So all I’m saying is that this may be one of her artistic flaws. I still think she’s remarkable and will continue reading her work over and over again, despite my Protestantism.

Abraham

Jason, back when I was a pastor-type person, I’d carry a small vial of oil with me if I was going to an event where I knew people who would prefer its use (I served a few times as a spiritual director on a Christian adult weekend retreat-thingy where it was common to anoint every team member before the weekend started).

I have no idea what kind it was. It was whatever the Christian bookstore sold me. Once, I forgot it, and we used vegetable oil from the kitchen.

I tossed my little vial during packing. Which reminds me – we’re taking pre-ownership of our new house down in the city today. Prayers would be much appreciated as we make this transition.

Glenn Lucke sends the following response via email to my comments on A. Piper’s Flannery O’Connor piece:

I may mis-read A. Piper’s piece, but I didn’t see the jab at her Catholicism. I thought he was extolling and then explaining her position to readers who might be the very targets O’Connor had in mind. I read Abraham Piper’s article as being quite sympathetic.

At the end his raising of the question is not a jab at her Catholic faith but rather the putting of a fair question: did O’Connor live up the standard she proposed? That’s a fair question to ask of anyone who proffers a standard.

Perhaps Piper reads in O’Connor’s oeuvre some instances where she devolved into didactic teaching. With stories like a Good Man is Hard to Find she certainly smacks the reader hard with depravity. It’s not propositional, but the unrelenting depiction of depravity could be experienced as heavy-handed teaching.

Of course I may mis-read all this. But I didn’t detect a note of snark or jab whatsoever.

My 2 cents.

First thing: I know next to NOTHING about Chuck Pierce.

That said, much of what I see on his Glory of Zion web site looks like the kind of Dispensationalism-based Christian Zionism that I have come to – um – dislike. But, I have read nothing of his, and I would be happy to be wrong.

Also, something seems a little ishy about the idea of selling 1-oz. bottles of “Resurrection Anointing Oil” for $10/bottle.

I’ll shut up about him now and let someone with actual knowledge speak up.

Second thing: A question – speaking of anointing oil, does anyone use this? If so, do you just use olive oil, or is there some standard kind? (Our church doesn’t talk about or promote the practice of elders anointing the sick with oil. But, since it’s a New Testament practice, if someone asked, I’d do it, and I believe most of the others would as well. Do any of you have any thoughts on this?)

Now, everybody, try to keep quiet. Don’t make eye-contact; keep your breathing regular; continue going about your daily business. Giving in to certain needy people’s desperate desire for attention may seem like the easiest way out at times, but in the end it only results in greater hurt, as they are reinforced in their self-destructive patterns of behaviour. They need space to work through this in their own time and in their own way. (jn)

Michael, I’m a bit surprised that you took the time to blast CBD for promoting the new Osteen book in the first place. Maybe I’m just cynical and jaded, but I realized long ago that CBD is just like Christian bookstores in general; they exist to make a buck, pure and simple. That’s why I haven’t set foot in a Christian bookstore for probably three or four years; they promote crap, to be blunt. Do you honestly think they ever cared about the true gospel? Oh, sure, many of them started off caring, but that’s not what people were buying, for the most part. Now that the “Left Behind” series is complete and the “Prayer of Jabez” has become passe, they needed to find another goose that laid the golden egg, and Joel Osteen is that goose.

What person who is high up in the organization of CBD actually reads these books? Who do you think is in charge of doctrinal integrity? If someone said something, I’m sure they’d be ignored at best or fired at worst. Just do a survey sometime of the catalog and see if 90% of the stuff they sell is just garbage. And people are going to buy those Joel Osteen books, whether they get them from CBD, Amazon.com, or Uncle Joe’s Bookstore and Flea Market. If people expect CBD to filter through the dross, they’d better think again.

Michael: Christopher Hitchens has been banging that Mother Teresa drum for years. He did a British TV programme well over a decade ago about “the real Mother Teresa”, in which he sensationally revealed her to be a practising Roman Catholic who (a) admired the Pope and (b) opposed abortion. (jn)

If you want a good laugh, here’s a Christopher Hitchens article for the New Statesman from 1976, in which the drink-soaked former Trotskyist popinjay expresses his admiration for the up-and-coming young leader of Iraq, one Saddam Hussain, “who has sprung from being an underground revolutionary gunman to perhaps the first visionary Arab statesman since Nasser”:

Saddam Hussain will rise more clearly to the top. Make a note of the name. Iraq has been strengthened internally by the construction of a ‘strategic pipeline’ which connects the Gulf to the northern fields for the first time. She has been strengthened externally by her support for revolutionary causes and by the resources she can deploy. It may not be electrification plus Soviet power, but the combination of oil and ‘Arab socialism’ is hardly less powerful.

And the rest is, um, history.

Chris Hitchens makes his play to be an honorary TR: I Hate Mother Teresa.

This morning I got an IM comment that quoted me asking CBD why they endorse Osteen. The commenter said “Why do you endorse Mother Teresa?” He’s right. I’ll be endorsing Paula White later today. Thanks for the help.

Aaron: if you’re looking for specific materials, the best small-group Bible studies I’ve come across are Matthias Media’s Interactive Bible Studies. Two particularly good ones are “Full of Promise” (an overview of the whole OT, which our home group at a former church studied to great profit) and “Beyond Eden” (on Genesis 1-11, though that may not go down too well with members of the Ken Ham fanclub). But they’re all worth looking at.

Matthias Media is an Australian (mainly Sydney Anglican) publisher, but they have a US catalogue available for download here.

Phillip:

I think a strong biblically-sound case can be made that most Christians should probably be involved in [a small group], or something like it.

I’ll go with that, provided we remember that the believing family is the Christian “small group” with the strongest biblical support (golly, I think I must be channelling Doug Wilson again (jn)). For those lacking that form of fellowship, however, I agree that other small groups can be very valuable.

Sharon, Sonia: Delighted to have flushed you out. :-)

Sonia, hope things improve at work soon. Sharon, glad things are improving.

And finally… Yes, it’s time for the weekly sea-ice update that you’ve all been looking forward to so much. As of Tuesday 28th, there were 2.99 million sq. kilometres sea ice area in the northern hemisphere. The previous lowest-recorded minimum (last year) was over 4 million sq. km.

And a reminder that the long-term trend can be seen here. If this was a company’s stock price, I’d say this was a “sell”.

Sonia, I feel for you with all of your stress related angst. Since I recovered from my back injury last spring I’ve been fine but I’ve had to deal with a ton of family illness. The most recent is my youngest son’s broken foot. Skate boards are of the devil.

My new appointment is really a gift from God (the bishop? /jn/). I was nearly comatose from the lack of opportunities for creative expression since I was ordained in ‘06. Now, I can do whatever I can dream. The problem the problem is that I’ve been a ‘rusty dreamer’ but things are slowly getting unstuck. I would love to know that y’all are praying for us on September 9 when ALL of the children’s programs and Disciple Bible Study are getting started. Here’s a look at the rational for our children’s worship service. We’re also doing Pioneer club and it is also beginning that night. Our choir guy is doing a magnificent job with all the music and youth guy is doing great stuff with technology in the middle service.

Basically, I feel as though I’m waking up and I have a great opportunity to do some good stuff.

Edit: for grammar and unclear sentences due to being slap worn out last night.

Thank you, Travis. That’s exactly what I needed and expected to hear. I have a very low tolerance for these self-proclaimed prophets and long for a return to the days when the people of God could stone to death false prophets. I’ve got some rocks with names on them should that day come.

You Kansas City false prophets might want to buy a helmet.

Enough water to fill the oceans of Earth five times over has been detected in a young, embryonic solar system. The Spitzer telescope is an amazing instrument.

Travis, that’s a delightfully pithy characterization of O’Connor.

Michael: I’m no Flannery O’Connor scholar, but there aren’t many short stories I’ve read (and I love short stories) that do a better job of taking the reader through a tragic experience of truth. If Lewis’s goal was to “instruct while delighting,” Flannery’s goal was often to instruct while horrifying. And both are powerful. I just can’t see that remark at the end of the post as anything other than the obligatory Protestant shot at Flannery because she was Catholic. I hope I’m misreading. But if you’re going to raise a statement like that, give us some grounds for the doubt that you’re expressing.

Matthew: Chuck Pierce is a lunatic “prophet.” Comes up here to Rochester a lot from what I understand. I’ve never actually heard him speak myself, but I’ve been in the church he always speaks at. They told me that because the Genesee River flows between exits 3 and 8 on the I390, and 3 is the Trinity and 8 is regeneration (or something like that), that there was proof that a Holy-Spirit-Revival was coming to Rochester.

I didn’t stay for the whole service.

This isn’t related to any particular discussion here, but I just read this post on the fullness of the Cross of Christ and it was too good to pass up:

The mistake too easily made is to think of the Cross as only one thing. The Cross is everything. All things are summed up and completed by Christ on the Cross, just so, everything is summed up and healed in His resurrection from the Dead. On the Cross He is the serpent lifted in the wilderness. On the Cross He is the Lamb of the Passover. On the Cross He is the Offering of Atonement. On the Cross He is Moses’ staff stretched over the waters of the Red Sea. On the Cross He is the arms of Moses stretched out at the destruction of Amalek. On the Cross He is the ram in the thicket that God gave in place of Isaac. On the Cross He is Blood poured out on the Mercy Seat. On the Cross He is the love of God made manifest in its utter self-emptying. On the Cross He is the Bridegroom now come for His bride to bring her back from the dead. On the Cross He is man in His alienation from God and God in His union with man.

Sharon! Sonia! You there? Missing you… :-)

In a nutshell:

• Started my new job in mid May. Had a health-related problem shortly thereafter that left me reeling mentally and emotionally.


• Just as I was beginning to feel like I was on solid ground, the girl that trained me went on vacation. The clients on the account that we handle “smelled fresh blood” and have come after me with every last possible insane demand. Tonight is the first night all week I’ve been home from work before 8PM – and I’ve been at my desk before 8 every morning.  Kurt has been privy to some of my day-to-day stories. He is one of my few links to sanity.  Now that’s a frightening thought …  :-)

• I’m an “unqualified” skeptic. One hunderd years of weather data when the earth is, at bare minimum, several thousand years old is barely enough information to state definitively that the earth is going on a one-way trip to hell in a handbasket. Let’s see… 100 years of data divided by – oh, let’s say – 6,000. It gives you such a crappy statistic that, translated into baseball terms, would have you thrown off of the t-ball team at age 5. If that’s enough data for an accurate average, then I should be allowed to play in the major leagues.

• I am not in an officially sanctioned “small group”. However, my husband and I do get together regularly with a small group of friends. We pray with and for each other. We discuss everything from politics (from just about every angle possible) to the proper installation of toilets. We’ve discussed Dallas Willard and Dr. Suess. I am an introvert. I need to know someone well enough and long enough before I can start spilling my guts on any topic, personal or otherwise. I need to know I can trust them. Being forced into an official small group would only bring out the fake “me” – the one that never has any problems or doubts and the one for whom the Christian life is a walk in the park.

• I distrust all politicians. I may trust some more than others. I might even like the personalities of some. However, they all need to wade through the septic tank of government – big or small – to get to whatever position they are holding. Even if they’ve worn a hazmat suit going through it, they still emerge from the suit in a rather smelly state.

John: Yeah, that Shelfari site is a spammy shadow of a ghost of a wannabe of LibraryThing, one of the reasons God invented the internet. All readers, browsers, and random strangers who are walking by a screen or printout that someone has left with this visible, hie thee to LibraryThing and make your life a better place to be. :-)

On Small Groups: Is it just me, or is criticism of “small groups” somewhat akin to criticizing “books” because lots of bad stuff is in them? I mean, yeah, I get the criticisms, and I’ve been in some horrid small groups, but I’ve also been in some good ones, and they tend to exist to solve very real problems (like how to build real community when a group grows too large).

So, sure, there’s bad doctrine, even dreadfully abysmal doctrine sometimes. There’re also weird people, and it’s uncomfortable and awkward and hard for introverts like I am slowly unbecoming. Still and all, what’s the alternative? Just because it’s comfortable for me to sit at home alone, quiet, doesn’t mean it’s good for me, and it sure as sin isn’t what Christ has called me to do.

For me the problem isn’t the existence of small groups. I think a strong biblically-sound case can be made that most Christians should probably be involved in one, or something like it. (An opposite case can be made in many situations, of course!) The problem is what happens there, and I think it’s the same problem that is happening in the pulpits of America, too. We’re taking our cues for church and for small groups from the world rather than from scripture, and that is the problem.

Not that I have any strong opinion on the matter. :-)

I have used Google, but I wanted to ask you folks about Chuck Pierce. Know anything about him? Prepare the Way Ministries?

We are in the process of developing our small groups.  The official launch of our church is on September 9^th.  As soon as possible we want everyone to be in a small group.   Our strategy is to offer two kinds of groups.  The core will be our membership class, a basic doctrine class, a book of the Bible (in this one we will teach how to read and interpret scripture), a Bible overview, and a missions study.  The second type will be topical like a men’s group or a newlywed group.   I really want our church to start out with a good foundation of teaching.  If yall have any suggestions I am all ears.

Abraham Piper wonders if Flannery O’Connor lived up to her own standards of writing. Travis? Leif?

I think it’s fascinating that any positive (or even somewhat analytical) mention of certain Catholics brings out the posts that come as close as possible to saying these people aren’t Christians because they aren’t trusting Jesus Christ, but gasp their theology. (Unlike US who have no theology EXCEPT CHRIST.) “I thank thee, Lord that I am not as other men…..”

Take this one for example. Al Mohler.

I possess no ability to read Mother Teresa’s heart, but I do sincerely hope that her faith was in Christ, and not in her own faithfulness.

My entire autopsy from [name deleted] began with some of this kind of rhetoric. And then the fire fell because, of course, he didn’t actually mean JPII was in hell. Not specifically. Just….hypothetically.

Y’all are a bunch of papists.

God forbid groups should start meeting in their homes to study scripture. No, we MUST have authoritative gate keepers of scripture to protect the scoundrels from bad theology. The Spirit simply isn’t capable of delivering truth via scripture or protecting from error without an ordained M.Div in the room.

Talk about the cure being worse than the disease.

Of course there are bad small groups. I went to once one sponsored by Saddleback Church. I about lost it when the 20-something leader said, “You know how you just get bored wearing the same clothes all the time? Well I do. I have to buy new clothes every couple weeks…”

Good thing he had his Purpose Driven™ Spring Catalog….

Lurker Matt

Speaking of small groups, I could use some advice and/or resource referrals. I’ve been asked to co-lead a high school group at Church because I have studied Greek and Church history. I was thinking about teaching them about textual variants and how to use online tools to find case/number/gender, etc. I consulted with a friend did a Greek and Latin minor in graduate school. He suggested that I just learn classical Greek along with them. I remember a guy in college who already knew classical Greek and he had no problem with Koine. My friend said that a resource like Mounce’s grammar teaches you how to think like Mounce, but doesn’t lead to the depth of understanding that you get from just knowing the language outright. Does anyone have any suggestions for resources (other than Mounce) that would help me make some high school kids dangerous?

From the Phillip’s executive summary:

Were Mother Teresa an evangelical missionary leader, such private writings would in all probability be sup[p]ressed. But Rome cannot publish them quickly enough. This reality is very revealing, in my opinion, and worthy of reflection.

Truer words could not be spoken. You don’t have to be a philosopher to see why one is commendable and the other not so much.

And in the body of the article:

Imagine a postumous biography of Billy Graham, D. James Kennedy or Rick Warren revealing such a persistent spiritual state. The effect would be to obliterate their influence in evangelical circles.

He makes it sound like that’s a bad thing.

I’m more inclined to agree with Mark Horne’s rather than Wilson’s take on Piper’s anti-Wright book.

“T’ whole world’s gone mad except for me and thee, and sometimes I’m not so sure about thee.”

Though you really need to read that in a Yorkshire accent for it to work. (sw)

Y’know Bob, just about everything that makes me wish I never heard the word “Calvinism” again is in that post.

Calvinists with their admirable lack of subjectivity. The Math of Christianity. It all adds up so….there you have it.

Richard Phillips over at Reformation21 reflects on Mother Theresa as someone whose accomplishments he admires but whose spirituality he pities particularly in light of recent revelations.   Read more here.   I think he makes many needed and valid points, but it will probably make a lot of readers mad. 

Here’s a rule of thumb: If you announce you have the gift of discernment, you probably don’t. If you run a discernment ministry that announces no one is a Christian except you, your gift of discernment may be in some question.

Is this some kind of flirtation with RC style infallibility? Surely not. Where would I get that idea?

Quite. It would be a start if some of those claiming to have the gift of discernment were to display a basic level of self-awareness...

I always thought you just needed to consult the correct evangelical leader, commentary or watchblog, and that was discernment. Why else do some web sites have every sermon, every scripture, every word, archived. B16 has nothing on some evangelical leaders. I mean, 98% of what’s called discernment around these parts is nothing more than “You disagree with the way I and my pastor interpret the Bible.”

Those gifted with “discernment” have been saying this bar is a pit of apostasy, atheism and alcohol abuse for years. Same with any theologian we ever quoted. Those gifted with “discernment” have been saying we’re all emerging for the same amount of time.

Is this some kind of flirtation with RC style infallibility? Surely not. Where would I get that idea?

Not “word”, as in “The Lord has given me a word.  Just my own uninspired thoughts.  Our Pastor and I have been talking about possibly initiating small groups, as a way of getting those who never attend any discipleship opportunities to do so, perhaps in a less formal atmosphere.  Here are the problems:  1. We don’t want these to compete with our existing bible studies.  2. We don’t want them to drain people from our existing bible studies to lead small groups.  3.  Something isn’t always better than nothing.  As I point out to anyone at my church who will listen, there is a big difference between “what do you think this verse means” and “What does this verse mean to you”?  I don’t mind folks coming to the conclusion (as I have myself) that they don’t know what a verse or passage means, as long as they realize that it means something, and not something subjective to each one of them.  This is the danger of a bunch of rogue small groups.

Dan Edelen on the “small-group dialectic”:

I believe with all my heart that small groups are a disastrous place for people to learn the Scriptures. ... The tendency for synthesis of ideas that contradict the Scriptures is rife within these groups. Time and again I’ve heard leaders assent to heretical ideas synthesized by a group trying to reach some consensus.

He’s absolutely right about the powerful dynamic towards consensus and synthesis in small groups. People feel unable to say, “Actually, I think you’re wrong” – to do so jars with the “intimate”, “affirming” nature of the group.

HT: Lurker Chris.

To my mind, it is far from clear that “the discernment of spirits” referred to by Paul [1 Cor 12:10] is the same thing as “being able to identify and expose false teaching more clearly than most other Christians”.

Indeed. Everything hinges on what those “spirits” are. In most contexts, it appears to concern daimones. In the context of the charismata occurring in Corinth, I think that should be borne in mind. Lest we fall prey to “spiritualizing” the text, we should probably avoid abstracting pneumata to something like “first principles” or “regulative ideas” (i.e., stoicheia). “Discernment of spirits” doesn’t appear to have much to do with an intellectual ability for analysis. In its context, it appears to be a holy spirited gift to penetrate to the heart of what’s going on, to distinguish whether or not what’s happening in the body, especially the other charismatic manifestations, is of God or not. Contrast this, for example, with something like “careful examination of claims and sound judgment regarding them.” Everyone has the capacity for this. Let me make the case that we should keep these two things distinct.

The members of the council that wanted to kill Peter and the apostles (Acts 5) clearly possessed neither (a) the spiritual gift of discerning spirits nor (b) the wisdom to use dispassionate analysis at the appropriate time. Gamaliel, however, had (b), but not (a). He showed wisdom and the discernment of reason, but he didn’t see whether the gospel Peter preached was of God or not (or if he did, he didn’t pronounce his judgment publicly as far as we know). He showed good judgment precisely by not condemning Peter and the apostles as false teachers or in the thrall of evil spirits. By exercising this ability given in human nature, he restored some sanity to the council by arguing for restraint in their judgments and actions upon Peter and the others. In other words, the case of Gamaliel demonstrates the significant difference between discernment of stoicheia and logoi versus discernment of pneumata. The latter are a matter of pneumatology; the former are a matter of anthropology. From the perspective of pneumatology, collapsing these into one “gift” is unwarrantedly reductive with respect to the diversity of gifts testified by the Scriptures.

John H: I feel your pain.  Many small groups are just bad Bible studies.  That’s why I don’t want our small groups to be Bible studies at all.  I tell our small group leaders to share in two minutes one thought they had from the Word that week.  Then close the Bible and talk about application.  If they have 30 minutes to prepare I tell them to spend five minutes preparing the two minute “message” and 25 minutes praying and thinking of good questions.

Joel: good thoughts on communities of service coming out of service to the community.  And I also liked that “forced intimacy” post you linked to three weeks ago.  It got me thinking about this.  Sticking with the unfortunate metaphor, it seems like we must forsake forced intimacy, without abandoning all attempts to invite and woo people into the light of honest fellowship.  Unforced intimacy is good.  How shall we pursue it without coercion is the question.

Shea: sorry, it’s gone. The substance of what I wanted to say is still there in the edited version. I think too much emphasis can be placed on small groups in some churches, but I didn’t want to look like I was declaring war on the small group concept. The title to this post may be a cry of long-suppressed frustration from years of small-group discussions, though. (jn)

But, since you’ve set me off, here’s a pertinent quote from Michael Saward (a conservative evangelical Anglican minister in the Church of England, best known as writer of the hymn “Christ Triumphant”):

This is the disturbing legacy of the 1960s and 1970s. A generation brought up on guitars, choruses, and home group discussions. Educated, as one of them put it to me, not to use words with precision because the image is dominant, not the word. Equipped not to handle doctrine but rather to “share”. A compassionate, caring generation, suspicious of definition and labels, uneasy at, and sometimes incapable of, being asked to wrestle with sustained didactic exposition of theology. Excellent when it comes to providing religious music, drama and art. Not so good when asked to preach and teach the Faith.

John H, I found your previous comment helpful and thought provoking.  I’d say put it back up if you still can.  Without a little controversy, I’ll only get two responses. (sw)

Shea, as with most things it seems, I’m with John. Your concern about introverts is a valid one, and it has been part of my small group experience, too. For some people, it takes a lot of time to develop trusting friendships. In my experience, a too aggressive promotion of small groups heaps up some bad stuff on such folk, not least of which is guilt for not feeling like one is willing enough to be “intimate.” I don’t think most small group promotions are trying to be coercive, but I do think that many unintentionally cross that line into forced intimacy, a term with less euphemistic synonyms.

I believe that shepherds’ primary duty is to feed the sheep, and that occurs primarily in the gathering that is set aside to proclaim the Word and receive the Sacraments. Beyond that, there is no biblical prescription for Sunday school or small groups, and a sure sign that something is out of whack is when we are more inflexible about the mode, manner and occasions for the latter two things than we are about the former. I’m a big believer in fostering fellowship and deep relationships through outward-looking religion (and here). Working together in service to members in need and in the community is good discipleship, in my opinion. FWIW, some of the most gregarious extraverts are those who have the least patience with small groups, but I suppose they enjoy the advantage of being largely untroubled by having to endure that which doesn’t minister to them.

I keep getting emails from a website called “Shelfari”, supposedly a personal invitation from someone to join an online bookshelf-type site. Googling around, apparently what this site does is harvest your email address book during the sign-up process, and then spams – oops, sorry (jn), sends personalised invitations to – all your contacts. And then sends a reminder when they ignore it.

Just thought I’d mention it here as a warning to anyone tempted to sign up. You may end up annoying a lot of friends and contacts if you tick the wrong box.

I’ve deleted the previous version of this comment, because I don’t want to provoke a “controversial” discussion about small groups that might detract from the more practical points on which Shea was seeking discussion.

All I wanted to say is that (a) our church doesn’t have small groups; (b) we have been in small groups at our previous churches; (c) we got a lot of positive things out of those groups; but (d) we don’t really miss not being in one, because now we have a family, extra work commitments etc that would mean small group membership was too much of a time commitment. But YMMV.

Oh, and (e) my only problem with small groups is when they get treated as a litmus test for true Christian discipleship (as, in my experience, they frequently are, if only by implication).

How important to you is small group fellowship?  Are you in one at your church?  What do you like about it?  What do you not like about it? 

Our church is full of introverted people like me who aren’t all that excited about small group fellowship.  And we’ve got lots of babies which makes things difficult.  And many people would rather have just a Bible study than a fellowship where we discuss application and pray for one another.  But I don’t think we don’t need another Bible study.  I think we need this fellowship, but it’s a hard sell to some in our church.  Should I keep selling it?  If so, how?

EDIT: Significant typo fixed.

Michael: could you please comment on reports that Van Til was last seen catching a plane to New York in order to woo the world’s most eligible bitch? (sw)

(Apologies for the title: obscure Rufus Wainwright reference, for the benefit of the three people who’ll get it…)

ECNMag has an interview with Steve Wozniak (the real design brain behind the beginning of Apple) about his new interest in energy efficient housing. I don’t generally get into the whole green vs. consumer debate, but I like his approach. Instead of getting all over people’s case about using too many resources, he is, like a good engineer should be, all about efficiency of design. By using the right materials, and the right techniques, and good design principles on the front end, things (houses in this case) can be made that don’t use as many resources as what we currently have.

As geeks and engineers go, I look at Woz in relation to computer design the way I look at NT Wright about theology. In other words – he is da MAN.

Joel, you might like this.

Travis: I missed the “It’s none of my d*mn business” option, so went for “other”... (jn)

It’s a little ironic that last week’s poll was “Should Christians criticize each other in public forums?”, and this week’s is (to quote from memory) “How laughable, on a scale from 1 to 10, do you find this rather unappealing person’s profession of faith?”

CT does a poll on Vick and his “found Jesus” statement.  (HT to tmatt)

Tim Challies is blogging about the subject of his upcoming book, with a post on “the gift of spiritual discernment”.

The “gift of discernment” has been given something of a bad name by the activities of certain individuals who spend their lives “discerning… with extreme prejudice”, so it’ll be interesting to see a more measured treatment of this subject. What I wanted to raise here was the question of